Men of the 24th Regiment of Foot - Secunderabad, India 1873

Anyone recognise anyone else.

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This photo appeared in the 14 July, 1934 edition of The Sphere as part of an article, "Rorke's Drift Commemorated".
"This picture... shows the officers of the 24th Regiment of Foot (now the South Wales Borderers) when they were stationed near Secunderabad, India, in 1873. Six years later the regiment was in Africa and took part in the Zulu war. Many of the men shown here must have fought in the disastrous battle of Isandhlwana, and one of them, Lieutenant Bromhead, received the V.C.for his heroic defence of Rorke's Drift."
Bromhead is sitting second from the left in the second row from the front.

hi oh2.
Are you sure your man is Bromhead ?, he looks a lot like Pulleine to me
I think Bromhead is in the 2nd last row from the top , the 6th from the left :lol!:
God I hate these photos :lol!: .
Cant wait to see what 1879 graves has to say :)

cheers 90th.

90th I think you may have thrown a spanner in the works. My mate said that was Pulleine, and I said Bromhead. I will have to make a revisit.

Old H. I think your friend and 90th are right. Not sure on Bromhead ??

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Hi OldH

I can name all but two, but need time to number them, will post it when I have numbered them

1879Graves

1) Lieutenant C.D'A. Pope
2) Captain W.B. Logan
3) Lieutenant W. Penn Symons
4) Lieutenant F.R.B. Liebenrood
5) Lieutenant C.W. Walker
6) Major H.B. Pulleine
7) Lieutenant Colonel T. Ross
8) Lieutenant J.J. Harvey
9) Captain H.B. Church
10) Lieutenant D.D. Pryce
11) Lieutenant H.M. Williams
12) Major F.C. D'E Barclay
13) Captain W.R.B. Chamberlin
14) Lieutenant J.H. Banks
15) Lieutenant G. Stanhope Banister
16) Lieutenant T.C. Dempster
17) Lieutenant C Erskine
18) Lieutenant J. Hoskyns
19) Lieutenant F.T. Halliday
20) ???
21) Lieutenant T. Rainforth
22) Major W.J.M. Crawford
23) Lieutenant C.S.L. Wilkinson
24) Captain E.H.B. Sawbridge
25) Quarter Master J. Hawkins
26) ???
27) Paymaster A.S.G. Jauncey
28) Lieutenant R. Younghusband
29) Surgeon W.F.G. Gullen
30) Assistant Surgeon V. Mac Sweney MD.
31) Lieutenant W. Sugden

amazing knowledge .

hi 1879graves.
What can I say, Great work. :)
cheers 90th.

Excellent work. Graves.

Hi All

I cannot take all the credit for my knowledge. Many years ago with a well know Zulu War Historian, we spent many hours on the telephone and tried to name everyone in the photograph. This historian was able to name more than I could, but I did write down our findings. :lol!:

Hi OldH

The photograph could have been taken in 1872 or 1873 but I am not sure, I have it listed as 1872 but you have it listed as 1873. As you will see from the record of service of Gonville Bromhead, if it was 1873 as it has been stated, he would then not appear in this photograph as he would have been on home service.

Gonville Bromhead

Commissioned Ensign by purchase, 2nd Bn 24th Foot 20/4/1867
Lieutenant by selection 28/10/1871
Captain and Brevet Major by selection 23/1/1879
Major 4/4/1883.
Gained a First Class Certificate at the School of Musketry, Hythe 4/12/1875. Re-attended the School of Musketry 1/10/1882 - 5/12/1882 and gained a First Class Extra Certificate.

Served at Home 20/4/1867 - 11/12/1868
India 12/12/1868 - 1/4/1872
Home 2/4/1872 - 1/2/1878
South Africa 2/2/1878 - 12/1/1880
Mediterranean 13/1/1878 - 12/1/1880
India 13/1/1880 - 11/8/1880
Gibraltar 12/8/1880 - 16/4/1881
Home 17/4/1881 - 31/12/1882
India 1/1/1883 - 26/10/1886
Burma 27/10/1886 - 24/5/1888
India 25/10/1888. Died 9/2/1891

1879Graves thanks is made my day seeing Younghusband in this photo. Hope to be back in a few weeks just had a few very hot days, to hot for my liking.

Good to see more names on the Forum. Neil I have seen some of your articles on various web sites. You certainly know the Martini Henry.

Were all the gents in the photo killed at Isandlwana.

hi olh2.
Pope, Pulleine and Younghusband were KIA at Isandlwana , there was an Erskine who was an officer in the NNC he survived
Isandlwana not sure if he"s the same one in the picture , Penn - Symons I think was killed in either of the Boer wars or WW 1 !!.
1879graves may have other details.
cheers 90th.

Lieutenant William Penn Symons Number 3 in the photograph - was mortally wounded battle of Talana Hill on the 20th October 1899 and died on 23rd October 1899 at Dundee.

90th you are correct with Pope, Pulleine and Younghusband all KIA Isandlwana.

Erskine's, I think there were three of them at Isandlwana (not sure) 2 were killed, 1 survived, but would need to check the records.

A nice link for William Penn Symons
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1879Graves It’s probably me. But did William Penn Symons take part in the Zulu war.

Hi John

You are correct, William Penn-Symons did take part in the Zulu War. He was a Captain in the 2/24th.

Hi 1879graves.
I think I have seen a report or was it a book written by Penn - Symons on the aftermath of Isandlwana
or the zulu war itself ?.
cheers 90th.

SIR WILLIAM PENN SYMONS (1843 – 1899)

William Penn Symons, eldest son of William Symons and Caroline Anne Southwell, was born at Hatt, Cornwall, England on 17 July 1843.
Symons was educated at Crediton School and at Sandhurst and was commissioned as ensign in the 24th Regiment of Foot (later renamed the South Wales Borderers) in 1863. He was promoted to Lieutenant in 1866 and Captain in 1878. As a member of the 2nd Battalion Symons fought against Sandile in the Ninth Frontier War (1878). He served in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879. On 22 January 1879 Symons accompanied Lord Chelmsford's contingent and thereby escaped the Zulu attack and destruction of the British camp at Isandlwana. Before the conclusion of hostilities he was sent to the Cape Colony to purchase horses for the British Government. In 1880 Symons served in India and was appointed Assistant Adjutant-General for musketry in Madras in 1892.

He served on the staff in the expedition to Burma in 1885, and 4 years later commanded the Burma Column. He was frequently mentioned in dispatches and was given rank of brevet Lieutenant-Colonel (1886), appointed C.B. (1890), promoted to regimental Lieutenant -Colonel (1891), and commanded the 2nd Battalion South Wales Borderers until 1893 when he became Assistant Adjutant-General for musketry in Bengal, India. An excellent shot and skilful swordsman himself, he did his best to raise the standard of shooting in the Army. Between 1894 and 1898 he commanded a brigade in Waziriston expedition, the Tochi field force, and afterwards a division in the Tirah expedition to North-Western India. He was made KCB in 1898.

In May 1899 Symons came to Natal to take precautionary measures in the northern border in the likelihood of hostilities with the Transvaal Republic. Given a temporary rank of Brigadier-General he undertook extensive reconnaissance along the Natal frontier and recognised the need for a larger force than the British had in fact deployed to protect the Natal northern districts. To meet the wish of the Natal Government he divided his troops between Ladysmith and Dundee. On 3 October 1899 Sir G White arrived in Natal and took command of all British troops in the Colony. On the outbreak of the second Anglo-Boer War (11 October 1899). Symons remained in command of the advance British position in Dundee. With him were four battalions of infantry, three batteries of artillery and one of cavalry regiment.

On 19 October 1899 the Boers captured Elandslaagte station and several rail, telegraph and road communications between Dundee and Ladysmith; the force at Dundee was therefore in danger of being completely cut off and surrounded. After occupying Talana and Lennox Hills east of Dundee, a Boer force of 2500 under General L. Meyer attacked the British camp on 20 October 1899. In the attempt to drive the Boers off Talana Hill, Symons, after riding out from camp and passing through a plantation of eucalyptus tree, climbed over a low stone wall where he was shot in the abdomen. He returned to his horse, and galloped off until he was out of sight of his men, then dismounted and was taken by stretcher to hospital. The Boer position on Talana was taken by assault, and while tactically it had been a British victory, the battle had resulted in many more British than Boer casualties. Although cleared from Talana the Boers on Impati Mountain to the north of Dundee were still in a commanding position, and after moving camp the British force was withdrawn to Ladysmith. The British wounded, including Symons, remained in Dundee. The Boers occupied the town on 23 October 1899 and Symons dies of his wounds the same day. He was buried the next day in St. James's churchyard, Dundee, where a large marble cross now marks his grave. There is a stone cairn at the foot of Talana Hill marking the spot where Symons received his mortal wound.

In 1877 Symons married Caroline Hawkins. It is not known if any children were born of this marriage.
There are several photographs of Symons appearing in publications relating to the Second Anglo-Boer War. In the United Kingdom there is a memorial window to him found in Botus Fleming Church near Saltash, Cornwall.

is there a higher resolution version of this picture ? because according to david jackson the chap in the forth row , second from the left (with hand on his shoulder) is captain rainforth of G Coy 1/24th and have been looking for a clear picture of him ??

Captain William Penn Symons--Photograph taken circa 1875


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Isandula

There is a photograph on page 98 of HCMDB, slighty differet pose, but same local and people.
Obviously taken minutes before or after.
its housed in the RRW Museum. It puts Rainforth as being 2 away from Pullein.

Wagers anyone?

Regards

Ive just noticed that all the figures in the photo are numbered, very small lettering. I would assume therefore that the RRW has a record of all the participants.
Graves
Maybe all your hard detective work could have been shortened a tad with an e mail to Martin Everett.
The picture is also dated 1871.

Regards

springbok. Are you talking about the numbers in Red. If Yes. The numbers were put on there by Graves.

Hi all .
Springbok there is also another Picture of Rainsforth on Page 99 of HCMDB . Unfortunately he's wearing the white foreign service helmet which doesnt give you a good look at him .

cheers 90th.

ps. How Can Men Die Better ( HCMDB ) by Mike Snook .

Isandula. Excellent quality Photograph of Captain William Penn Symons.

Littlehand
No. In the photo reproduced in HCMDB all the participants are numbered.
Thats the phot from the RRW museum.


Regards

90th
If the dating of the photo in HCMDB of 1871 is correct then that would put Bromhead back in the frame.

Regards

Hi Springbok.
Yes , You are correct the photo on page 98 does indeed have the individuals numbered . Bloody small though !! .
I think there may be a little misunderstanding , Graves1879 has I think posted this photo but has ADDED his own set of
Red numbers which are far more easily seen than the microscopic ones used on the original photo . Hope this makes some
sort of sense . :lol!: .
cheers 90th.

Hi Springbok.
How Can Men Die Better dates the photo as 1871 but earlier posts have it at 1872 or 73 . If it is / was 71 then Bromhead
should be there . If it is 71 , maybe he was out on patrol in the midday sun ! .
cheers 90th.

90th
Check the two photos carefull, they arent the same, part of the same series and taken within a few minutes of each other though.

Regards

Hi Sprinbok.
Agreed , same time frame but positions of certain individuals are different . Well picked up .
cheers 90th.

Hi springbok9

I do not have a copy of HCMDB, so I am unable to comment on that photograph

I will have to contact Martin to see if he can help name them

Graves
Later on today I will scan the new photo and send it to Pete for posting, its intriguing

Regards

it is rather intriguing.. and i agree with the above posts that these phots must have been taken within minutes of each other

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Bottom Photo RRW museum.

Hi All

Many thanks to Admin & springbok9 for the photograph.

I have to agree that they were taken at the same time.

I will be contacting Martin to see if they can all be named.

i can name a fair few:
numbered from the viewers left
front row (1) lieutenant pope (2) captain logan (3) lieutenant symons
second row (2) captain pulleine (4) lieutenant harvey (5) captain church (7) lieutenant williams (on the chair)
third row (2) captain chamberlain (4) lieutenant banister
forth row (2) lieutenant rainforth (with hand on shoulder) (6) lieutenant younghusband (8) lieutenant sugden (with beard)

please note these are the ranks at time of photograph early 1871 i believe.
these numbered individuals refer to the first photograph not the photograph from HCMDB

And as a side note lieutenant bromhead is NOT present in either photograph

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Zulu War Display Currently on in Chatteris Museum Cambridge.
So is it Bromhead or Pulliene ? In Andy's Photo he has Number 6 as Pulleine the Newpaper article has Bromhead?

1) Lieutenant C.D'A. Pope
2) Captain W.B. Logan
3) Lieutenant W. Penn Symons
4) Lieutenant F.R.B. Liebenrood
5) Lieutenant C.W. Walker
6) Major H.B. Pulleine
7) Lieutenant Colonel T. Ross
8) Lieutenant J.J. Harvey
9) Captain H.B. Church
10) Lieutenant D.D. Pryce
11) Lieutenant H.M. Williams
12) Major F.C. D'E Barclay
13) Captain W.R.B. Chamberlin
14) Lieutenant J.H. Banks
15) Lieutenant G. Stanhope Banister
16) Lieutenant T.C. Dempster
17) Lieutenant C Erskine
18) Lieutenant J. Hoskyns
19) Lieutenant F.T. Halliday
20) ???

I see Frank Bourne identified the ones named.

Hi Pete
Answering in Haste , please correct if incorrect . I think it's Pulleine , he was in India at about that time , don't think Bromhead was in India until after the Zulu War ? .
90th

90th Perhaps i'm just getting old.

Can't find anything on Pulleine being in India in 1873?

Hi Pete
Reading a post from Graves1879 back in 2009 he states Bromhead was in India during 1872 not 1873 , so if 1873 is the correct date it can't be Bromhead , need Graves1879 ( Andy ) to post Pulleine's service record , hopefully he bails us out again !

90th

Hi 90th

As Pulleine was KIA, I am unable to find his service record.

Having looked at other officers service records that are listed by Frank Bourne. like Penn Symons, Harvey & Williams - They are left India on 3rd Jan 1873.

Now to throw in a spanner, Banister is listed by Frank Bourne, Banister on his service record show he left India on 11th Jan 1872.

Now for Bromhead's service record.
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A Bigger Picture.

In my opinion Bromhead is not in this group photograph.

Andy

Thanks Andy, I agree with you , I don't believe Bromhead is in the pic .
90th