William De Passey, 17th Lancers.1879.

Your forgot the Link Littlehand. (Please post)

Hi OldH,
The link is there its just the mans name-just click his name

thanks joe

Hi All

I am at the moment not sure if he took part in the Zulu War

I have not been able to find any evidence that he took part yet

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William de Passey and family (1918)
William de Passey, a member of the Light Horse headquarters staff 1913-1918, photographed with his wife and family in the garden of their home in Kent Street, Adelaide. At this time he held the rank of Major and was the Camp Commandant at Mitcham Camp, South Australia during the 1st World War. Behind: Edwyna ('Queenie') May de Passey (nee Read) and Lieutenant Roy de Passey 3rd Tunnelling Coy. In front: Major William de Passey, his wife Louisa Amelia Augusta (nee Wegener), with the daughter of Roy and Edwyna, Una Erica, (later Summerville).

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Major William de Passey and Lt. Roy de Passey (1918)
Lieutenant Roy de Passey 3rd Tunnelling Coy, standing behind Major William de Passey, taken in the garden of William and Louisa de Passey in Kent Street, Adelaide.
Source: State Library of South Australia

What is meant by this.

"Although he does not appear on the Medal Roll for the 17th Lancers at the last great battle of the Zulu War – at Ulundi on 4 July 1879 - he almost certainly was there or close by"

Hi Littlehand

I have been doing a little digging with regards to William De Passey.

Found this Newspaper clipping, claiming he took part in the Zulu War.

Now to my findings and my opinion.

Having found his Service record, see photo


From this you can see that he served in South Africa from 3rd June 1879 to 31st Jan 1880.
This puts him in the right time frame for the Zulu War. BUT we need to understand a few things before we say he was at Ulundi or close by.
William transfered from the 5th Lancers to the 17th Lancers on the 27th May 1879. He is listed as joining the 17th Lancers on the 27th May 1879. So lets say he got all his new kit and horse ready by the 3rd June 1879 and set sail for South Africa to join the 17th Lancers already in the Zulu War.
Now I do not know how long it would have taken to get to South Africa by boat but it must have taken awhile, then William would have had to get to the Front Line by the 4th July 1879 to have taken part in the battle or be close by.

It is my opinion that William did not have time to get from England to Ulundi by the 4th July 1879 (I am willing to be proven incorrect). That is not to say he did not take part in the Zulu War just not at the battle of Ulundi. I am of the opinion that by the 4th July 1879, William could of well been in Zululand and making his way to the front and only took part in what was left of the Zulu War.

William is not listed as getting a Medal on his service papers, which suggests to me that he did not make it in time. He still could have been entilted to the medal if he crossed into Zululand by the 4th July 1879, William could have made his claim for the medal much later on in life after leaving the UK and that is why he is not listed on the Medal Roll and no entry has been made on his service record.

Hi All
Further info on William De Passey, on the 1881 census he appears in Barracks at Canterbury, but appears on no other census it seems he went to India this is on his service papers, being discharged in 1888. I then find a W De Passey as a Captain in the 2nd Australian Horse during the 2nd Boer War, this would tie in with information by Graves1879 above, it seems likely sometime after 1888 he went to Australia.
As for service in the Zulu War, the date of June 3rd is the date he left the UK not the date he arrived in South Africa this would have been about three weeks to a month later, making it almost impossible for him to have reached Ulundi by the 4th july 1879.
Rai
Keyshamlighthorse

Hi De Passey

I am happy to hear that you are a relative and have his medal.

Would love to have you post further information and photographs of the medal to help with further research.

Just hit the Reply button and type away in the big box for longer replies.

Hi All.
Just a bit more on William Passey,
No 1693 5th Lcrs, No 2380 17th Lcrs, Attested Aldershot May 2nd 1876, Ex Worcestshire Militia, he was a L/Corp during the zulu war, but was deprived of the lancer rank on 11 Jan 1884, reverting to Private. He served for 12 years and 81 days. Discharged at Fort William [India]. On his service papers his next of kin is given as mother charlotte sister sarah and brother thomas, all living Kidderminster, his date of birth is given as 1858 Abberley Kidderminster.
The 1861 census address, is Habberley Valley Kidderminster, Father Thomas b.1825 Agri Labourer, mother Charlotte b.1825, 5 kids, John 1849, George 1850, Sarah 1853, James 1857 and the youngest William 1859.
All the best
Rai
Keynshamlighthorse.

Hi De Passey,
Welcome to the forum, is this your ancestor??? would be great to see any information you have on the Lancers, medals, photographs or written records. I have just spent 4 months on creating a model of a 17th Lancer it's posted in the model section.
cheers
Richie

Richie wrote:

Hi De Passey,
Welcome to the forum, is this your ancestor??? would be great to see any information you have on the Lancers, medals, photographs or written records. I have just spent 4 months on creating a model of a 17th Lancer it's posted in the model section.
cheers
Richie

Happy to be here. William was my great grandfather and I believe I inherited a lot of his genes as I have a strong affinity to many of his stories.

Most of the information I have pertains to his life in Australia but I do have some interesting references from his time in the 17th. Unfortunately my grandfather destroyed his memoirs (probably due to his colourful and honest accounts) so many of the mystery's surrounding his career (Zulu War) will always be surrounded in mist.

My father related to me how he recalled sitting of his GF's knee and being told about the huge number of Zulu's attacking at Ulundi, that the sky was covered in spears. I beleive the Zulu used a throwing spear the assegai as well as the Iklwa. From my reading of the recovered parts of his memoirs and my understanding of his personality and life, if Williams said he was at Ulundi, then he was there. However, William has surprised me many times so I will remain only 90% committed.

I will post his excellent references from the 17th and a photo of his medal soon.

Catch you soon

Brian

Hi all .
I agree with Graves , I dont think De Passey could have made Ulundi in the known time frame . He left the UK on the 3rd June ,
at least 3 weeks to get there , and then get to Ulundi . I doubt it . Welcome to the forum De Passey .
Cheers 90th.

Nice one Littlehand , the unit has an Australian Sounding name ! :p;:
Cheers 90th.

William De Passy isnt listed on the Medal Roll .
90th

Okay, I've got no idea what I am doing. It looks like when I post a photo it goes to a different server?? Maybe you can find it, maybe you already have and maybe I'm wasting my time..??

https://i.servimg.com/u/f65/20/26/14/39/de_pas11.jpg

Hmm - still have no idea what I am doing, but this is one of three I intend to send.

url=https://servimg.com/view/20261439/4][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][/url]

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Not a good one, will send more

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Okay, it looks like you are getting some photo's. Not sure if I have sent these before, but probably not. Observations for your experienced members:
1. Issue with 1979 bar. However, as one of your experts stated, that only means he crossed theTugela River within the time frame.
2. It does have his service number on it as per regulations.
3. It has his rank as Lance Corporal.

I do have another photo for you which is next. I bought it online recently and is William with the 17th Signals Section in India. He is not wearing his medal, but then nobody else is either...?

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I had this photo colorised and think it enhances the picture quite well, hope you enjoy.

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This is a photo I bought online (yes the wife knows and she ain't happy.....but, you can't please them all the time). It is the Signals Section of the 17th Lancers in India. William is the lad laying down on the ground on the left. I've got enough photo's of him to recognise him and whilst I cannot say whether he was at Ulundi or not, I can say with confidence that this is him.

Interestingly he has 2 stripes on his arm.

I also have an inserted photo of "TSM Davidson - Canterbury 1881" that I can attach (it came as an attachment to this photo so I assume he should have been part of it, obviously being the Troop Sergeant Major) if anyone is interested.

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I know this isn't Zulu war stuff, but you guys started it when you posted other photo's of William in later life. Just yell out or delete if not required, but I'm on a roll.

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DE PASSEY, Colonel William - 1888_17th Lancers Reference - Major John Pleydell-Bouverie F Troop

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DE PASSEY, Colonel William - 1888_17th Lancers Reference - Lieutenant L D Miller

I like this reference, not for what it say but because it has the Death Head logo on it.

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DE PASSEY, Colonel William - 1888_Discharge 17th Lancers

PLEASE NOTE:  William's discharge papers attest that he had the 1879 South Africa medal by the time he was discharged.  Whilst this only means he crossed the Tugela River it presents problems for me:
1.   Life was brutal at this time, average life expectancy for the working class in 1879 was 38 (and that is jolly well all they deserve the ungrateful bastards)
2.   Life was brutal in the army: between the 11/01/1879 & 4th July 1879, the British flogged 545 of their soldier with between 25 lashes for minor subordination and 50 for sleeping on duty or theft. (Reference:  Rorke's Drift by Adrian Greaves)
3.   Life was made more brutal by the officers (dangerous to generalise as not all would fit into this category BUT, they were brutal even within the officer "class".) general attitude to the troops.  For instance, after the battle of Ulundi, the men who would become the hero's of Rorke's Drift to save Lord Chelmsford's reputation were left for months in the open with no shelter from the torrential rain and without uniforms, medical supplies, food or even (if you can believe the incompetence) ammunition.  The survivors of Rorke's Drift wore mealy bags for uniform with the holes cut out of them. There is a small lie here, the survivors of Rorke's Drift were given the use of one tarpaulin to string over their heads. Rah, rah, more British pluck.  For god's sake get over it, they are only the rabble and they are expendable.

My question is would the recommendation for the award of a medal have occurred given:
1.  Given the general disregard to the health, wellbeing or comfort that the officers displayed towards their troopers/soldiers.
2.  The natural animosity that fellow troopers who had being in the murder square (I know it is call by other names but get real) might have towards someone who wore the same medal and did not make the battle.????

The above mention book nearly didn't get read by me as the prelude to the Zulu War is disgusting to read, but I am glad I did.  From my reading of this period, for a trooper to approach his commanding officer with a request that he be awarded a medal for a battle he did not participate in but his fellow troopers did would require massive cast iron testicles and I reckon the kick he would have received there would have been heard in London.  boooong, oops sorry...BOOOOONG...!! Or is it just 25/50 lashes....oh no, they did away with the cat, now we will have to rely on moral to get the troops motivated.

The only caveat I would add is that William's reference's tell be that he was an accomplished trooper and that his officers expressed genuine deference towards him.  But I still don't think they would give him a medal for "just being in the area", as they fought there and being there is part of the brotherhood.  


Still, you guys might have other examples of soldier being awarded medals for "being in the vicinity" when their fellow soldiers were being shot at.  Doesn't fit the mould, but there are always the excepts.


Another observation: his South Africa 1879 medal is for Lance Corporal and he has 2 stripes on his sleeve in India.....so does 2 + 2 = 4 and even if it does, does a leopard change it's spots?

Apologies for the rambling, just my style and indignation at Imperial murder.

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DE PASSEY, Colonel William - 1883_17th Lancers Assistant Instructor Army Signalling

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DE PASSEY, Colonel William - Medals Minatures

Hi Brian

Many thanks for sharing all the information and photographs of William.

De Passey wrote:

I also have an inserted photo of "TSM Davidson - Canterbury 1881" that I can attach (it came as an attachment to this photo so I assume he should have been part of it, obviously being the Troop Sergeant Major) if anyone is interested.

I would be very interested in seeing the photograph of TSM Davidson.

Andy

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Pretty poor quality, done at night with a shadow and it’s a massive file size. Let me know if it’s not to your liking

Hi Brian

Many thanks, that is great.

Andy

Hi De Passey . Thanks for sharing the pics outstanding , I was quite chuffed to see the letter by John Pleydell - Bouvier , as I have a Hat tin
which was owned by him , it's inscribed ' The Hon; John Pleydell - Bouvier 17th Lcrs . As previously mentioned William couldn't have been at Ulundi , not enough time to leave Eng June 3rd and be at Ulundi July 4th , he was awarded the medal with clasp as he crossed the border into Zululand , he may well have taken part in the searches / patrols for King Cetewayo ? , ( Cetewayo was captured 28th Aug from memory ? ) the war wasn't officially over until Sep 1879 , all those in the Zulu War were awarded the Medal , no-one was required to ask for one , is that what you suggested ? . T.SM. Davidson also was awarded the Medal with the Clasp 1879 . Again Thanks for sharing , excellent stuff .
90th

De Passey,

The signalling course photograph - which appears to have been taken prior to 1st March 1881 - does have a single member of the 17th Lancers in it, but not the soldier you have indicated. The other members of the group are from various regiments and corps.

The only 17th Lancer is standing in the back row, second from the left. Sorry to say the soldier you indicated is not even a lancer. The clue is that his forage cap does not have cross from front to back, and from side to side. The detail is obvious on the Kidderminster photograph, however the colourist has made a faux pas by showing it in red, rather than blue.

I would even say that the photograph was actually taken in the British Isles, rather India, quite possibly at Chatham in Kent. Nice photograph all the same in my opinion.

Sorry if I’ve caused any disappointment.

JY

90th wrote:

Hi De Passey . Thanks for sharing the pics outstanding , I was quite chuffed to see the letter by John Pleydell - Bouvier , as I have a Hat tin  
which was owned by him , it's inscribed  ' The Hon; John Pleydell - Bouvier 17th Lcrs . As previously mentioned William couldn't have been at Ulundi ,  not enough time to leave Eng June 3rd and be at Ulundi July 4th , he was awarded the medal with clasp as he crossed the border into Zululand , he may well have taken part in the searches / patrols for King Cetewayo ?  , ( Cetewayo was captured 28th Aug from memory ? ) the war wasn't officially over until Sep 1879 , all those in the Zulu War were awarded the Medal , no-one was required to ask for one , is that what you suggested ? . T.SM. Davidson also was awarded the Medal with the Clasp 1879 . Again Thanks for sharing , excellent stuff .
90th

I must defer to your substantially greater knowledge on these affairs: BUT (it's a big but) he told my father he was there so I have to think he was. I know the ship to Cape Town and the bullock wagons to Zululand had left prior to Williams departure. As previously mentioned he left on the 3rd June or June 3rd (??...never realised we said it different to you guys) and IF he went by this route he would have had a sore bum and arrived a looooong time after the battle of Ulundi. Yeah, we agree on something....!

I am lead to believe that the stupidity factor had been dialled out and the meticulous logistical planning had taken over by now: ie loads of food, fodder and bullets. I don't know, it makes absolutely no sense to send it via Cape Town after they neared the Zulu border. I would be sending men, material and horses etc via Durban. But this mob have proved that logic, plans, regulations, treaty's, obligations or anything else can't stand in the way of "The British Way", so maybe they wanted skinny oxen and continued sending everything via Cape Town as stupid and illogical as it seems to me.

Am I missing something? Durban was in British hands??? It certainly wasn't in Zulu hands being in Natal!

So if the British were not trying to make the oxen skinny and all the contractors wealthy, then surely they used closer ports. (lets not talk about the Boer War as it does go against my argument that the British military can learn something from their mistakes). If they used Durban as their port, then we are only 233 kilometres from Ulundi and with a horse travelling 50 kilometres a day, lets allow 5 days and 22 days for sailing and the we have spare days, 9 by my counting.

I must be missing something in this puzzle. I know there are shipping lists in England for this period, but they are not on-line, and these would give a definitive answer of what ship William was on and what port he disembarked on and on what date. These records are beyond my reach in Covid and financially...well maybe I will get motivated but I'm fishing with for you at this moment. Are you aware of these list: I found them referenced on the internet W/O files...??

I eagerly await you enlightenment on this matter as it perplexes me. I always understood and deferred to your knowledge and opinion until recently after reviewing more stories about this period and had another think (came across a couple of more books). I was in Logistic's Management until my retirement and have always have had an interest in this matter as it pertains to military operations and performance. Until you respond, I can only assume that you have knowledge or a belief that William followed the path of the original troops which most certainly excludes him from Ulundi. However, unless you can prove that the British ONLY used Cape Town for resupply (which is a preposterous - I've done some calculations on a bullock train travelling from Cape Town to Ulundi - I reckon it would take 2 months - and 2 months to return. I know they are British BUT....!!!!!!)

Logically, by the time William left England, Durban would/should have been the port for resupply. (Have you calculated how many remounts would have died moving them from Cape Town to the frontier.???) The only other alternative is yes they were using Durban but there is an unknown factor to me that you are aware of that still puts William out of the picture......I would love to know it.

So a challenge for someone, find those shipping documents, find William and his port of disembarkation and at least some of the picture is solved.

Hi De Passey
I'm leaving for work , hopefully John Young sees your post , he'll have the Information you require .
90th

I have this from PO Toms incredible volume:
'ORANTES' arrives in Cape Town 30th May
Departs for Durban on the 31st May
Arrives in Durban 3rd June
Troops disembark 4th June.
So the possible question would be when does the effective date of service begin, when he left UK or when he arrived in SA.
If he was on the ORANTES he could very easily have made it to Ulundi. by the 4th July.
Tom will have, I have no doubt what so ever, chapter and verse as to who was on board.

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London Daily News 04 June 1879

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Evening Mail 04 June 1879

Hi All, hope you are all safe,
As i previously stated above his service papers state he left the uk on 3rd june service begins from the date you left the UK even if you were not in south africa confusing, looking at some newspapers earlier i found this, from the scotsman 29 may 1879, Sir G Wolseley and staff would leave for the Cape on the Edinburgh Castle on Friday May 30th, as we all know Sir Garnet never reached Ulundi before the battle.
The paper also states, Troopships Euphrates and Jumna [ marine battalion] plus two chartered transports Egypt and Queen Margaret would leave in the next few days for the cape with additional troops. I would assume De Passey would have been on one of these transports. A second look at his papers do not mention anything about zululand, SA medal 1879, or ulundi, in fact the only mention is the amount of days he was in south africa.
Rai Keynshamlighthorse.
ps, seems Andy [graves 1879] have been doing the same thing. well done Andy.

Safe & well here Rai,

The Egypt - which was carrying amongst others the draft supplied by the 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers - left Simon’s Bay on 7th July 1879, three days after the Battle of Ulundi. The onward journey between Simon’s Bay and Durban normally took on average four days.

The 17th Lancers left South Africa in two stages in October 1879 bound for India. Yet the service details above posted by Andy, show William de Passey remained longer in South Africa before returning to the U.K.

JY

The Jumna was a bit of a disaster ship, broke down on a number of occasions and was stuck in St Helena for a while. Took around 31 days for the voyage to the Cape.

rai wrote:

Hi All.
Just a bit more on William Passey,
No 1693 5th Lcrs, No 2380 17th Lcrs, Attested Aldershot May 2nd 1876, Ex Worcestshire Militia, he was a L/Corp during the zulu war, but was deprived of the lancer rank on 11 Jan 1884, reverting to Private. He served for 12 years and 81 days. Discharged at Fort William [India]. On his service papers his next of kin is given as mother charlotte sister sarah and brother thomas, all living Kidderminster, his date of birth is given as 1858 Abberley Kidderminster.
The 1861 census address, is Habberley Valley Kidderminster, Father Thomas b.1825 Agri Labourer, mother Charlotte b.1825, 5 kids, John 1849, George 1850, Sarah 1853, James 1857 and the youngest William 1859.
All the best
Rai
Keynshamlighthorse.

Hi,
Are you able to provide a copy of his service record? Love a copy if you can. I am very interested in his India service if you can redirect me or add, much appreciated.

regards,
Brian

Hi Brian

I have sent you a PM with William's service record.

Andy

1879graves wrote:

Hi Brian

I have sent you a PM with William's service record.

Andy

Thanks Andy, but a PM..? Post Mark...nah, can't think of anything else. Should I look in the letterbox or somewhere else. Prior Message....struggling here. Come on give me a hint...!

Hi Brian

Please take a look in your message tab at the top of the forum screen.

PM = Private Message.

Andy

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Mitcham General Cemetery
Mitcham, Mitcham City, South Australia, Australia
(Michelle McMc. Findagrave.com)