The ammunition question

Most of what we know about the Battle of Isandlwana is nothing more than based on Victorian Miltary Melodrma. Added to over the years.

All these accounts from survivors, saying there was an problem with the ammuntion, if there wasn't why did the leave, and I have still found nothing to show there were even carts at Isandlwana. Only what Lucky Essex says. And it would be nice to see somewhere that Essex fired a few shots during his running up and down to help out.

Springbok

I totaly agree, there will be no evidence given in the replies, just speculation.

LH, prehaps you haven't seen these

Wilson - who was on the line and saw ammo being brought down to it
Bickley - who saw ammuntion being taken down by Bandsmen and other unarmed men, he also
saw horses and mules loaded with ammuntion being taken to the line.
Smith-Dorrien - who was on the line giving out ammo to the 24th
Higginson - who was men fromt he 24th and a sergant from the NNC bringing ammo to the line
Malindi - Who says his Coy got fresh ammo
Barker - Who got more ammo for the Carbineers
Davies - Who got ammo for the NNH
Ammo box parts were found on the firing line, confirming boxes reached the line.

It's ok referring to these resources, but tell me this.with regards to the witnesses you mention.

Where was each individual at the time of witnessing the distribution of ammuntion or where they received it.

What time did the distribution take place. Middle of Battle, End Of Battle, Other.

How much ammunition was being distributed, Ammo Boxes, Handfalls, other.

Where did each indivual exit the Battlefield. Same Area, before the horns mets, other.

LH

All the accounts refer to a systen in place that was supplying the line with ammo, before the fall back, even after
that Bickley saw men trying to reach the Coys as they retreated.

No man left after the horns met, everyone left through the same place, at ruffly the same time.

That's my point they all left from the same point. Which shows they were all in the same vicinity. My own personal view is that none of those who survived and who gave statements remained there long enough to know what really happen, they were to busy making there way to the point of escape.

And I just wonder how embarrassing it would have been, for these witnesses to say anything other than ammuntion was getting through. Based on very few of them helped to distribute the ammunition. Most had horses and could have carried vast amounts, but they didn't instead it was left to bandsman ect running back a forth with handfulls.

Hi LH.

I have said before that there is something about this "ammunition question" that just doesn't add up, it's like getting a jigsaw puzzle but some of the pieces won't fit properly. There are conflicting bits of "evidence" from survivors and Zulus, and then there are theories, suppositions, assumptions, etc, etc, and it can all get a little confusing at times.

We all know that we cannot rely on "films" to give us the truth, however, in the film "Zulu Dawn", it did show men starting to run low on the ammo, and the queue of men (runners), lining up at the QM ammo wagons to take ammo to the front line, and some being refused because they were from another company, where, I wonder, did the film makers get that idea from?

Like I say mate, there is something not quite right about this "ammunition question", but trying to put my finger on it is proving very difficult.

By the way LH, keep up the excellent work in finding the good bits and snippets that you come up with, they are always very interesting, and I for one always appreciate them.

Regards mate.

Martin.

LH

Your post doesn't make sence, they weren't by any means in the same vicinity, Davies, Barker, Malidini were on the right, Wilson, Smith-Dorrien, Essex were on the left, Bickley was in the 1/24th camp, Higginson was on the NNC parade ground. The accounts refer to ammo being taken to the line before the retreat, ergo in around a 50 miniute period.

Martin the film was based on Morris's work, a work of almost complete fiction.

littlehand wrote:

but they didn't instead it was left to bandsman ect running back a forth with handfulls.

And the evidence for bandfulls of ammo is ?

No!! You have mixed up Bandsman and handfulls

And come up with "Bandfulls"

How else was the ammuntion getting to the lines.

And if you say "Carts" please show me some evidence that these " Carts" exsisted at Isandlwana.

:lol:

But seriously look on page 145 of the Narrative of Operations (Rothwell) where it is stated that the 3rd column
had 82 carts.

The bandsmen weren't taking " Handfulls " they would have been taking full boxes or horses with boxes tied to them.

Quote :

Davies, Barker, Malidini were on the right, Wilson, Smith-Dorrien, Essex were on the left, Bickley was in the 1/24th camp, Higginson was on the NNC parade ground.

Ok, so they were in different locations, which in my eyes makes the matter more questionable. With regards them all leaving from the same point. No doubt they all had horses, but I still find it odd, that only two survivors mention helping to supply the ammuntion, be it not by taken it themselves by by sending other to a certain death.

Your right Martin., I don't see how the few accounts left by those that escape can conclude there wasn't a problem with the supply. Even with the few primary sources available, like you I believe there was a problem.

I have always had a problem with the survivors accounts anyway.

LH

Were's the evidence from Survivors that a problem existed ?

Quote :

The bandsmen weren't taking " Handfulls " they would have been taking full boxes or horses with boxes tied to them.

And where does it say, anywhere that they were using horses to carry ammuntion boxes to the lines. Or are we now substituting Horses for the Scotch Carts.

Bickley.

Bickly!! What about Bickly...

He says bandsmen were leading horses with ammuntion boxes tied to them down the firing line.

I haven' t seen this. Could you post this account.

Also you maybe able to help, " Bickhills" account. I can't find anything in his account with regards to supplying ammuntion. May have missed it.

Also look at his account page 4 second paragraph. Where it mentions a field piece being brought in and the artillery men jumped off and took to there heels. He then mentioned solders firing thier last shots and following.

Panic was everywhere, and no "OFFICER" to guilde them.

Then again on Page 3 paragraph 4.
He only heard firing, he could not see the firing lines, this firing could have been a mixture of British fire, Colonial fire, and Zulu fire.

Bickley

"Bandsmen and other men on gaurd were taking ammuntion to the companies, I saw horses and mules with
ammuntion on there backs."

Ok. Where did this come from your source.

His account in ZV.

I take it ZV is " Zulu Victory" Does it give a reference in the footnote.

Looking forward to you replies ref: my others questions. Anyway I'm off now early start.

Methagazulu

"A: They were sent in several direction in compaines wreaking havoc among the Zulu. The carabineers defende a position and their fire was very dense. A long time elapsed before they were overcome and we finished witn them. When we managed to surround them, they all died together there. They threw their weapons to the ground when their ammunition had run out and then they started using their pistols, as long as the ammunition held out and then they formed a line, shoulder to shoulder and also to the rear, fighting with their knives. By then many of the soldiers had retreated from their positions from where they had shot at us and the uKhamdempenvu and uMbomambi were carrying out a great massacre. The carbineers and the others were in the area behind the camp and the soldiers were at the front. The zulu Army initially joined at the front where the soldiers were. When the soldiers retreated from the camp, they did so firing and then the Zulu intermingled with them, reaching the camp at the same time"


Q: "Did you examine the mens cartridge holders ?

A: Yes, we did look. Some had one cartridge, but most of them were empty. We didn't find many (he was talking about the paper packets each contained 10 rifle bullets). Other cartridges bags and belts were all empty; we only found a few bags.

Essex.

"The companies 1st Battalion 24th Regiment first engaged were now becoming short of ammunition, and at the request of the officer in charge I went to procure a fresh supply with the assistance of Quartermaster 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment and some men of the Royal Artillery. I had some boxes placed on a mule cart and sent it off to the companies engaged, and sent more by hand, employing any men without arms. I then went back to the line, telling the men that plenty of ammunition was coming.

I think the last high-lighted section, suggests that although he claims to have sent ammuntion, he arrived at the firing line before the ammuntion arrived. He then left, so in reality he cannot be sure the ammuntion actually made it through. Sending it and receiving it are two totally different issues. There is nothing to say the ammuntion reach the lines.

Chard

Read my previous posts.

Smith-Dorrien was on the line giving out ammo
Malidini - was on the line and says his Coy got fresh ammo
Ammuntion box parts were found on the line were E and F Coy were, confirming Essex's boxes reache the line.
Davies - Got ammo to his men
Bickley - say Bandsmen reach the line with ammo.

The men did run out, but at the final stages when they were surrounded and cut off from any form of supply, see
Melokazulu, but there isn't a single peice of evidence it ran out before this.

Littlehand
The questions I asked are still pertinent.

There is no testimony that says the line ran out of ammunition. There is testimony that supplies were running low. There is testimony that says Essex, SD etc assisted in getting ammunition to the line.
Obviously with firing, stocks go down and need to be replenished. I believe that last summer Britain had water restrictions. You didnt run out, but I do recall Sky News saying stocks were low.
Is that a fair way of describing the isandlwana situation?

The recall of the troops has often been linked with the so called ammunition supply ( a myth perpetuated by none other than Dr Morris ).
look at this scenario instead.

We know from testimony that Pulleine had based himself at the HQ tent ( Stafford ). We also know that at the height of the battle Private Wilson was at that tent and instructed by Coghill to pack it away. There is no mention of Pulleine being there, therefore one would assume that he was where any commander would be and thats on the firing line ( he would have had to be there to issue the fall back commands ( there were at least two ). No junior officer had that power.
So if Pulleine was on the firing line The Durnford engagement was invisible to him, the first sight he would have had would be when Durnfords men were at least two thirds of the way back to camp.
Despite oft repeated posts Pulleine was not a fool, he had around him a staff of experienced men. Once a glimpse of the mass retreat came from Durnford and probably the simultanious 'hinging' of Pope and the appearance of the left horn, he would have had no option but to sound the recall. Hence the sudden shock of the Artillery in having to get out fast ( Curling )

At that point the Zulu front was around 100m from the front line. Ntshingwayo on the ridge had a perfect view of the battle, he had seen the retreat from the donga long before Pulleine, he had also seen the left horn outflanking Bradstreet ( His view was incredible ). Once he saw the right flank collapse he sent his induna to harangue the chest into getting of their backsides and attacking.

So Pulleine has seen the right flank collapse, the Zulu left horn pouring into the camp ( and probably the right horn coming over the neck ) he orders general retreat.

That is the collapse.

The regiment breaks down into its component parts, the NNC runs for it. The companies form ( loose ) squares and begin to retreat. It had to be a slow retreat because of the terrain and the harrasement of the Zulu. At the break up of the line the Zulu were 100m away, wouldnt take more than a few seconds for the holes in the line to be penetrated.

That retreat didnt happen in minutes, it couldnt, its a long way back to the saddle. When they reached the saddle they were in the same area as the ammunition wagons.

The quote you gave on the pouches being empty is most probably correct. But that did not take place on the firing line. There are minimal bodies on the line. When the companies eventually succumbed on the saddle it was after fighting tooth and nail. At that point they would have run out of ammunition.
Except for the group fighting down the trail that is. There is sufficient testimony, ( DB has posted that ) to describe the rate of fire happening on that retreat. On the banks of the stream that ammunition had expired and Ansteys men died.

Sure the above is all conjecture, it is however born out of fact and fits all the known circumstances.

The concept of running out on the line does not fit with any evidence or known facts.

The sublime idea of 500 plus men in uniforms all running out of ammo and running like hell for the saddle doesnt fit at all. The pattern on the ground itself forbids that.

All the posts from the so called experts Jones, Machanix etc start with the premise that there was an ammunition shortage and from there try to explain why. Reverse engineering its called. Smoke from the rifles, jamming, ammunition running low, sure they probably all happened, but they were not principle causes.

A further and last point ( sorry mate for boring you) that forms part of a task Im working on.

A quote from Stafford: " When we got back to our WAGONS and the camp, Colonel Durnford ordered me to issue each man with 20 rounds of ammunition. The native infantry had only 10 p.c rifles.'

So the Durnford wagon position was known, the ammunition was unpacked.


Cheers Mate

But there are no eyewitness accounts to say they didn't run out of ammuntion. The eyewitness accounts say they either sent, or saw ammuntion going out. Show me some accounts that say the ammuntion was received at the firing lines. Again I will say, Essex claims to have sent ammuntion to the lines, no evidence has been produced to show that there were carts at Isandlwana. Also Essex clearly states he rode to the firing line to tell them ammuntion was coming, then he left, he did not witness the arrival of the ammuntion, he was to busy making his own way to an escape point.

Hi Littlehand
One cant prove a negative. Would your good lady come home and ssay "Hello darling, just got back from the shops and didnt run out of petrol"? I doubt it, more to the point would be: "Sod it, ran out of petrol on the way home."

But there is a witness, Dugal Macphail records:" At that time ( on the withdrawl ) there was plenty of ammunition".
Essex is not the only witness on the ammunition question. The fact that he organised the delivery and then left to await it is not proof either way. But one or two posts back a list was provided, all do confirm there was a supply.
And as so rightly pointed out by DB the 'dig' did prove that ammunition boxes did reach the front line, quantity? Who Knows. But taking the overall context including the subsequent actions and time frame there really is no question that the troops continued firing right up untill the saddle. DB has very often provided eye witness accounts to prove that.
So you have your eye witness accounts that testify ammunition got to the front line
You have physical proof that it did.
You have eye witness accounts of the depth of firing, and its intensity after the collpse.
You have eye witness accounts of the volley firing on the withdrawl.
You have eye witness accounts of the firing on and below the saddle.


Comes right back to my two questions, and they are inter related, they cant be seperated.

Cheers

Hi Springbok.
I find it a little strange unless I missed it but Stafford doesnt mention in his report about some of Durnford's men being sent back to escort wagons which hadnt made it to the camp , also as you said - Stafford was told by Durnford to issue 20 rds of ammo from their wagons at the camp ! . Why only 20 ? , was that because the wagons still making there way to Isandlwana also consisted of Ammo wagons ? . Twenty rounds isnt many to issue if you intend to go looking for the zulu army !. We do know Durnford sent men back to escort the wagons as I think it was after he spoke to Chard who was heading back to R.D . that he was told of the zulu presence to the left of the camp . So when Durnford arrives at Isandlwana he sends back a troop under a Lt ( Whose name escapes me )
to escort the slower wagons to the camp . This would be the reason I feel he only issues 20 rds , as he was waiting for the rest to arrive ?? . Just to muddy the waters somewhat !.
Cheers 90th.

90th
Didnt read it that way. He specifically says: " Our Wagons and the camp" ergo the wagons were in the camp. Therefore at that point the wagons had arrived.
The Native contingent were normally only issued with 5 rounds, Durnford ordered that that be increased to 20. Further proof that the wagons were in the camp: They travelled with the rocket battery from RD, Stafford says" he (Durnford) further ordered me to detail 20 of my men under a Lt to accompany Captain Russel with the rocket battery."

It fits together in progression of events, earmarks the wagons as being in the camp, along with Russell. And therefore puts a time stamp on the sequence. The fact that he doesnt mention Durnford sending men back to escort the wagons is interesting.

Cheers

Hi Springbok .
He does say our wagons but who knows how many there were in the camp at this stage , The way I read it is they went to find Pulleine immediatley on reaching the camp so to me the conversation wouldnt have taken long , so therefore I doubt IF ALL the wagons had made it to the camp ! . Again he only gave orders to Issue 20 Rds - that isnt many if you are going looking for the zulu army ,Which is exactly what Durnford did !. I believe some of the ammo hadnt arrived thats why he only issues orders for 20 rds to be handed out . Dont forget he was writing this report some 40 yrs after the battle .
Chees 90th .

90th

The waggons traveled in a column, if one waggon was in the camp they all would be.
Durnford didn't go looking for the zulu army, only those surposedly attacking Chelmsfords rear.

LH

Show me some accounts that say the ammuntion was received at the firing lines

Smith-Dorrien
Malidni
Bickley
Davies
Barker
Ammo straps found on the part of the line, Essex sent the boxes to.


no evidence has been produced to show that there were carts at Isandlwana

I posted the evidence yesterday, look back at the previos page.


he was to busy making his own way to an escape point

No, he rode to speak to Durnford, to ask why he had retreated.



Cheers

Quote :

But seriously look on page 145 of the Narrative of Operations (Rothwell) where it is stated that the 3rd column

Thats not what I'm asking, I can seen no accounts to say Carts were at Isandlwana during the battle. None were found after. And why would they need carts. Perhaps Chelmsford took them.

Quote :

Smith-Dorrien
Malidni
Bickley
Davies
Barker

As far as I'm aware the names you have posted, either sent ammuntion to the lines, or saw it going. If you could provide accounts that show the firing lines received it I would have appricate it. Posting the names only doesn't give us much.

Quote :

Ammo straps found on the part of the line, Essex sent the boxes to.

I believe this is originally from " Ian Knight" I will have to check, but I recall that it was established that the firing lines were further out than first thought, and these straps you mention we're found there, the problem with this theory
It's was some what over 130 years ago, those straps could have got there in numerous ways, even by the Zulus themselves.

I've posted them on the forum more then twice before, most likely in this topic. Lord C didn't take carts with him, and carts were removed along with waggons later.

Post it a 3rd time, because I don't recall reading it, and the source.

Isn't Julian doing some research with reference to the Scotch Carts, at Isandlwana.

Don't think so, why would there need to be any reashreach done ?

I could be wrong, but I sure it's on the forum somewhere. Problem is if there were no carts at Isandlwana what did Essex send the ammuntion in

Chard there were 82 carts at isandlwana, page 145 of the Narrative of Operations (Rothwell)

I was wrong.

Julian posted.

"Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands   Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:33 am
ray
I'm a bit involved in researching another area at the moment and am disinclined to rake through my archive for the specific references but carts were supposed to be standard issue to Imperial companies, engineers and artillery. The 24th had to buy some locally-made ones to supplement their own stock. Look on page 145 of the Narrative of Operations (Rothwell) where it is stated that the 3rd column had 82 carts."


I see where you got you infoe: from.

I have been assigned to duty as an ammo runner during combat, and I
can tell you that now (and I am sure it applied then) that the margin between
demand and supply was very narrow! Especially if any of the runners were
sucked into the fight, or became exhausted, and slowed down.

I would be your ass and mine too, thoseTommies were yanking triggers as fast as they could with 20,000 Zulu warriors loping towards them with hostile intent. When the Zulu closed to 150 yards, you can bet, some guys were fumbling with their ammo, dropping it, trying to load 2 rounds at once (with or without actually shooting) and forgetting to eject the loaded round, that there were some jams, and that there was some smoke problems (at long range any ways).

Believe me close combat tends to really disrupt any local command and control, with soldiers fighting as isolated individuals and groups against all comers. It is very hard to reorganize a fighting line.
 

Just looking at the various accounts. Major Clery stated:

"With regard to reserve ammunition, I acted in compliance with Lord Chelmsford's orders that no reserve ammunition should be taken out with the force, but that a wagon should be kept loaded in camp with ammunition and ready to follow the force that was going out, at a moments notice; all this was done."

How far would this waggon have been from the firing lines, because it clearly states, that the ammuntion was packed into one waggon.

He is talking about the reserve for the 2/24th, that would have been with the 2/24th ammo waggons.

No, he is saying no reserves were taken with Chelmsford force.

"According to Symons and all those interviewed by him, no boxes were placed "on a mule cart" as Essex claimed. The resupply was organised through the frontline companies themselves sending back men in twos and threes, which is precisely why Symons concluded that " absolutely no arrangements WHATSOEVER ( my emphasis) for bringing up spare ammunition."

Extract from Lord Chelmford's regulations.

"Too much care cannot be taken in restraining thier men when in action from too lavish an expenditure of ammunition. Seventy rounds are carried by each soldier but these are quickly expended, if he is carried away by excitement, and does not fire with coolness and precision. There is obvious danger should men run short of ammunition when at any distance from the reserves. Whenever, therefore, there appears any likelihood of troops becoming hotly engaged, thirty rounds extra had better be carried by the soldier. [In addition to the 70?] A N. C. Officer should always be previously detailed by each company, whose duty it would be should an engagement become imminent to have the reserve ammunition in readiness for issue from the wagons."

No reserve was taken with Chelmsford.

Part of " Bickley's account"

" The companies out skirmishing were now apparantly getting short of ammunition.it was being carried out by bandsmen and wagon drivers."

He does not confirm arrival of ammo and that cannot be accepted as a forgone conclusion."

You still haven't answered Springbok's questions, and Bickley is another person who comments on a system to
supply the line was in full effect.

Smith- Dorrien's famous quote, " with thosands of rounds in the wagons 400 yards in the rear there was none in the firing line, all had been used up." 


"Pte.Williams reported firing together with Pte. Hough." 40 to 50 rounds each." If that was their rate of fire, what about the companies.