The ammunition question

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Your still ignoring the questions asked, and the companies would have been firing volleys, not independent fire.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

How about these two ?

Smith-Dorrien, in a letter to his farther the day after the fight published in full in The Red solider.

" I was out with the front companies of the 24th handing them spare ammuntion "

Malindi's account in the Chelmsford papers NAM

"Our ammuntion failed, but we got more from the camp and remained firing at the Zulus until we were ordered to retire as we were outflanked on our right, the company of soliders with us on entering the camp nelt down and commenced firing, some distence to the west was another company of soliders also nelling and firing. "

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:13 pm

As far as I'm concerned I have answered his questions. I'm waiting for a reply that's confirms ammuntion was being received by the troops on the firing line. I'm not interested in those sending it or seeing it on its way.

Quote :: and the companies would have been firing volleys, not independent fire.

Source.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

You haven't answered the questions at all.

1) Give a source that says the ammunition was expended, ran out etc

2) Explain how over 500 men could make there way across close to a mile of rocky undulating terrain keeping of approx 15000 Zulu warriors with a blood lust and then last for over 90 minutes without cover/shelter or barricades.

Source for Volleys ?

The Zulus, Wilson, Brickhill.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:17 pm

S.D was not out on the firing lines. He was near the ammuntion waggon.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:19 pm

We have covered " BIckhill" he could not see the firing lines, he heard the fire, but as I have said this could have been a mixture of fire Coloinals, British, and Zulu.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:21 pm

Quote :: You haven't answered the questions at all.

1) Give a source that says the ammunition was expended, ran out etc

2) Explain how over 500 men could make there way across close to a mile of rocky undulating terrain keeping of approx 15000 Zulu warriors with a blood lust and then last for over 90 minutes without cover/shelter or barricades.

Source for Volleys ?

The Zulus, Wilson, Brickhill.

D.B please go back over the posts you will see my answer just after it was asked.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

LH

SD was on the line giving out ammo, he specifically sasy this in a letter to his farther page 87 of the red solider.

You haven't given an answer to the first question, and you haven't explained how they could retreat, why
zulus say they were firing as they retreated, why curling, higginson others say they were retreaty steadily and slowly.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:24 pm

D.B last one from me tonight. It's a question.

Why did Young-husband and company supposedly charged down into the Zulu masses.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:41 pm

The letter you mentioned

"i was out with the front companies of the 24th handing them spare ammunition"

And years later.

"I,having no particular duty to perform in camp had collected camp stragglers,such as artillerymen,in charge of spare horses, officers servants,sick etc,and had taken them to the ammunition boxes,where we broke them open as fast as we could and kept sending the packets out to the firing line"

How could he be in 2 places at once?

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

Why doesn't Essex make any reference to S.D or to Bloomfield, or have I missed something.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:08 pm

Essex again.

"The companies 1st Battalion 24th Regiment first engaged were now becoming short of ammunition, and at the request of the officer in charge"

Who was the officer, he was referring to.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

DB. Theses were LH's answers.

Quote :: Quote:
1) Give a source that says the ammunition was expended, ran out etc.

I think it was agreed, that the problem was, that not enough was getting to the firing lines, as only handfulls were being taken back. We have one account from Essex who stated he sent out ammuntion boxes to the firing lines on waggons, but he doesn't say which firing line, or how far the firing lines were away from where he supposedly sent it from, he also doesn't state if it actully got to the firing lines and neither does anyone else.

The fall back of the firing lines was because off the overwhelming numbers of the enermy breaking though, but I also feel that it was also due to a lack of ammuntion. A Zulu account states that the dead soldiers pouches were empty. Law of averages must allow for, soldiers panicking and running way, rifles fowled up, miss firing, cartridge jams, ect. And the fact that so much un-used ammunition was taken by the Zulus must suggest that it just was going out fast enough. As Ian Knight pointed out, if all the British at Isandlwana that day had fired 35 well aimed volleys into the Zulu's they would have wiped out the entire Zulu army.

Quote:
2) Explain how over 500 men could make there way across close to a mile of rocky undulating terrain keeping of approx 15000 Zulu warriors with a blood lust and then last for over 90 minutes without cover/shelter or barricades
.

If we say each man was carrying 70 rounds of ammunition x 500 that equates give or take a few to 35,000 rounds of ammuntion, that's a lot of lead to pour into the enemy, and with that much fire power I'm not sure even 15,000 Zulus would have been to keen on running head long into that, plus the Zulus would have had to cross over exactly the same terrain as the British before them, difference being they would have being ducking and diving behind boulders ect as hundreds of bullets would have been pouring into them. So I'm guessing there would have been one hell of a gap between the British and the Zulus over the mile you mention.

Subject: The Ammunition Question . Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:38 am

Hi DB.
In reply to your post 12.58 am today , I dont see how you can say with any conviction that if one wagon's in camp THEY ALL ARE !. Look at Intombe the Massacre occured because several wagons were caught at the drift ! , much evidence of wagon movements being spread over a wide area , Eshowe relief column etc etc , Durnford sends some of his command back to help bring the rest of his wagons quickly to Isandlawana , all this is stated from primary sources . As for '' Durnford didnt go looking for the zulu army , only those supposedly attacking C'fords rear '' , Well who did he think was attempting to do this ..............The Grenadair Guards !!!! scratch

I'll safely assume he thought it was the zulu army , so he did indeed go looking for them !. Shocked

Cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:48 am

If controlled volleys were being used as stated by D.B and the supply of ammuntion, was absolutely not a factor, then wouldn't it be reasonable to expect many more volleys, and many more casulites on the Zulu side.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Admin

Either Lt. Cavaye or Capt. Mostyn.

LH

1.Give a source that says the ammunition was expended, ran out etc.

Your answer didn't include a source, or answer why all the accounts mention firing during the retreat, and once they
entered the camp, still firing, once they were surrounded on the saddle, they were still firing.

The question with regards Younghusband has no relavence to this topic.

John

Essex makes refrence to Bloomfield helping him load ammo aboard a cart, and on doing so Bloomfiled was
shot dead.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:31 am

Quote :: The question with regards Younghusband has no relavence to this topic.

Why does it have no relevance Question

Smith- Dorrien's famous quote, " with thosands of rounds in the wagons 400 yards in the rear there was none in the firing line, all had been used up."

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The topic is about the ammuntion supply to the firing line, not Younghusband or why he charged down.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:46 am

Why did he charge down, it's a simple question, if you don't know say you don't know.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:50 am

I will leave that one with you, give you sometime to look it up. Just taking the wife shopping Shocked

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:16 am

I am convinced DB14 is two people; one, the 15 year old he says he is, with, by his own admission, "bad English." The other (his dad perhaps?) with flawless grammar and spelling - see posts above!

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:23 am

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: There was only a limited suply of Marti-Henry's avalible so most the Native units
got Sniders or Wesly-Richards as they were least expensive.

Barry i've never heard it cost live, your source ?

Cheers

Compare with the above

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

LH

Course i don't now the answer, no-one ever will.

Tasker

Sometimes i use word to check my spelling, other times i don't.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:18 pm

I hope his father is helping him, but for a young lad he does extremerly well. I for one use books and accounts to help me along. As far as grammar, and spelling as long as we can understand what being said that's good enought.

As far as I'm concerned DB can hold his own.

PS the reason for the charge down by Younghusband, No ammuntion!!

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

LH

Younghusband had fourght his way back to camp, fourght on the saddle with the survivors of the 1/24th, until
that stand was broken up and he was forced to heigh ground, even at that stage his men still had ammo, but once
forced up there they had no way to restock, so it would be inevitable that they would run out.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:26 pm

Right, but in general terms ( an ammuntion problem did exist) if they had enough they could have held their ground.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

There was no possible way Younghusband and his men could have got any more ammo, they were the last group
alive in the camp, all the men who supplied them while they were on the firing line were dead, and the ammo
waggons had fallen to the enemy.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:37 pm

If the deployment of ammo stations had been set out correctly, from the on set, instead of being left in waggons, the firing lines would not have had to depend on runners moving to and fro with packets of ammuntions.

Durnford sent for more ammuntion why, because they were running short.
( Ammuntion Problem) remember I'm not saying the battle was lost, because of the ammuntion problem, but it was one of the major factors.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:45 pm

I believe it was said that a man could fire off 6 well aimed rounds in a minuite. Basing that on 70 rounds he could discharge that amount in around 11 Mins.

Not a great deal of time, and that would be one hell of a job replenishing all the troops in the firing lines.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:04 pm

Just out of interest. Essex states.

"The enemy followed us closely and kept, up with us at first on both flanks, then on our right only, firing occasionally, but chiefly making use of the assegais. It was now about 1.30 P.M. ; about this period two guns with which Major Smith and Lieutenant Curling, R.A., were returning with great difficulty, owing to the nature of the ground"

Would this not have impeded the so called ammuntion carts.

Subject: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:40 pm

By the way LH, I am still with you on the ammo question, something just does not add up. Maybe tasker has a good theory when he said that there may have been some that were getting a supply, while others were not. There is a lot of conflicting statements from survivors and Zulus, and like I said before, it is hard to piece together to make any sort of understandable sense. We know that Durnford was in a very vulnerable position, running low on ammo and was also being outflanked, he had no other option other than to retreat towards the camp.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:12 pm

Agree, I'm not saying supplies weren't getting to the firing lines, I'm saying not enough was getting through. Like I have said many times, the accounts posted, either say they sent, or saw the ammuntion going out, it doesn't say how much, but we do know it was packets, 10 rounds to a packet, just over a minuites worth of fire power per packet. Did it get to the destination, if so which destination, was it just being taken to the nearest lines. we're the men in the far-out lines being carefull with thier ammo it the hope more would come, did they have just enough to allow them to make a fall back, trying to close the distance between themselves and the ammuntion waggons.

Subject: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:19 pm

Hi LH.

Found this in Ian Knight's book 'Companion to the AZW', if you have a copy, go to page 220, under the heading Wagons and Laagers, while reading that you will see that it says, "Pearson's column at the beginning of the war included 384 wagons and 24 carts and 3,128 oxen to pull them", he goes on to say that Durnford's column had 30 wagons, 480 oxen and 350 mules (no mention of any carts). Glyn's column had 220 wagons, 82 carts and 1, 507 oxen, Wood's column 41 wagons, 5 carts and 260 oxen, and Rowlands' column 17 wagons, 2 carts and 150 oxen.

Hope this helps mate. Salute

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:25 pm

This is one of my point's if there were no carts what did Essex load the supposed ammuntion into.

I posted this earlier.

Quote :: "Just out of interest. Essex states.

"The enemy followed us closely and kept, up with us at first on both flanks, then on our right only, firing occasionally, but chiefly making use of the assegais. It was now about 1.30 P.M. ; about this period two guns with which Major Smith and Lieutenant Curling, R.A., were returning with great difficulty, owing to the nature of the ground"

Would this not have impeded the so called ammuntion carts.

Subject: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:48 pm

I have read many books, articles and many posts on the forum, there is mention of mules throwing their loads or running off with the load still on their back, there is mention of some officers and men (runners), trying to get ammo to the firing line, there may well have been some ammo getting to the front, but how much and at how fast of a rate was it being delivered to the lads up front. As tasker says, some might have been getting a reasonable supply, while others not getting nowhere near the ammount they needed. I have been trying to find any mention of these carts being used to deliver ammo to the firing line, so far I can't find any reference to these carts being used, but I will keep looking. There is mention somewhere of some wagons being used to move the Zulus booty and some of the wounded and dead, maybe they used these carts to do this, they would have been a lot lighter than most of the wagons, that is maybe why there is little mention of carts being recovered when they got around to recovering the wagons that were left still intact at iSandlwana.

Salute

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:17 pm

Correct Martin.

Brickhill makes reference to this.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Some good points Littlhand. Perhaps there was a problem with the ammuntion supply after all.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Littlehand/ martin,

Correct.I have in fact employed digital analysis to check the post battle pictures on the battlefield, yet no scotch carts show up there.
Perhaps the wiley Zulu annexed the whole fleet ?. Unlikely.
However, what would be the point of the use of the cart if the rough terrain to be traversed to get to the front line would preclude their usage?
Further, bearing in mind the quartermasters ." who were overly conerned about their responsiblity for accounting for every round issued" unqoute ,were in reality only releasing boxes of ten, not crates. These quantities were so small that they were carried to the line in helmits. Thus , I say once again, not enough , or in time.
The exception to this were some colonial units who were using mules, but these caught fright and bolted, and were found dead on thre Fugitives Trail 10 days later...... with their loads still intact and thus NOT delivered to the lines.

regards

barry

Subject: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Thanks for that Barry, hope all is well with you my friend.

Some good points there mate, also if you go back to page one of this topic (oddly enough LH's first post on the forum), look at the post by old historian, there are some very good points there, and his source was " The Military History Journal Vol 4 No 6". By reading that, it would appear that a lot of men did not even have their full 70 rounds with them at all, so they would have been getting low on ammo fairly quickly, or at least a lot earlier than some of the others. Have a read, it is food for thought.

Martin. Salute

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Thanks Barry, perhaps it would pay, to look at the circumstances of the the firing lines rather than just relying on survivors accounts.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi martin,

Correct, one again there are may reports which say that those men who were at lunch and turned out in a hurry, only had 40 rounds on them, and did not have the time to collect more. Thus, firing at the rate of only 2 rounds a minute, this supply in their bandoliers, would have lasted 20 minutes, at the most. If that alone is the only accurate report we have, and it isn't, then the case is closed. Ammunition was indeed the problem .

regards

barry

PS : (1) To answer your first question , all is fine here except that a very large cold front has come sweeping up the country , from the Cape, and temperatures have plummetted.
(2) as promised I did get the contact phone number for the 32000 AZW/ABW graves data base in Pietermaritzburg and surrounds. This man , is Steve Watts . He is domociled in Pietermaritzburg and is VERY knowledgable and helpfull . I posted his number in the graves section a few weeks ago

Subject: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:55 pm

Exactly Chard.

There are far too many conflicting survivors and Zulu accounts, and they just don't add up right some how. I am not suggesting that they are telling lies, far from it, however, although to the best of their ability, people do try to keep a clear head, the mind can get confused in the height of battle, and trying to recall events afterwards can lead to even more confusion. Men can witness the same event, yet all can have differing recollections of it afterwards.

Martin. Salute

Subject: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:04 pm

Sorry Barry, posts crossed.

Glad you are fine my friend, but that is bad news about the weather, We here in Britain have had some rubbish weather for the time of year, but living here you can get used to it. :lol:

Many thanks for the information, I will take a look in the graves section.

Like I have just said in my last post, this "ammo question" isn't all that cut and dried, there is a lot more to it than meets the eye, and it would appear that it has been nagging at LH for a long time now, and I must admit that he has a good point, some things just don't seem to fit.

Best regards mate.

Martin. Salute

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Impressed Littlehand. Salute

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Barry

Name a single person who that says they had 40 rounds.

There isn't one, another invetion of fiction.

Martin

The Zulus testify to the heavy fire the 24th were putting up once they were back in the
camp, ergo if they ran out on the line, how is this possible.

Springbok's Questions still haven't been answered.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:00 pm

WO33/34 NO 96 Walter Higginson: “ ......... the 24th’s fire simply swept the men away, but soon their fire slackened a great deal, and I saw men come in for ammunition.” [ Note. He does not say they returned to replenish the firing line]

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Slackened, decreased, the reason being there was no targets to shoot at, thats why the fire slowed down.

LH

If they ran out on the line, explain how they managed to retreat over 1,300 meters, or all of the accounts of them
putting up heavy fire once they entered the camp ? Or Anstey and his men putting up suck a heavy fire on the trail
that the Zulus couldn't get at them ? Or how the soliders on the trail were firing over there shoulders ? Or how Younghusbands men evantually ran out on the high ground, after fighting back off the firing line, then fighting in the Saddle.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:08 pm

I'm not say they run out , the debate is, there was a lack of ammuntion. There wasn't enought ammuntion getting to the lines if any. I have just post a witness account.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Your account stated that men came in for ammo, it did not say that no ammo got through.

The following people state ammo got to the line.

Smith-Dorrien, Malidni, Barker, Davies

Ammo box straps were found on the firing line, meening that ammo did get to the line.

Subject: Re: The ammunition question Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:15 pm

Quote :: I saw men come in for ammunition

Why would they be coming in. DB.

It's not my account, it from someone who was there.

Quote :: Your account stated that men came in for ammo, it did not say that no ammo got through.

The following people state ammo got to the line.

Smith-Dorrien, Malidni, Barker, Davies

Ammo box straps were found on the firing line, meening that ammo did get to the line.

No these people didn't say this. And the ammo box straps as been covered.

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