The ammunition question

Hi Littlehand .
A couple of strategies put into place by Upcher which wasnt done at Isandlwana . 1 / Tents being struck . 2 / Laager .
3/ Earthworks . 4 / Rifle Pits . But in saying that , in Pulleine / durnford and Chelmesford's defence , Centane was to be a semi permanent camp , whereas Isandlwana was seen merely as a staging post basically .
Cheers 90th.

I see what your saying. But as you know thier were no fortifications of any kind at Isandlwana. The fact that when the infantry appeared the enemy to took thier heels shows they never had the pluck the Zulus did. My argument is that the Battle of Centane can not enhance the reputation of the MH.

Here an interesting observation by John Dunn

Regarding the British infantrymen at Gingindlovu explaining that ‘they were firing wildly in any direction.’

He goes further to say.

"I was much disappointed at the shooting of the soldiers. Their sole object seemed to be to get rid of ammunition or firing so many rounds a minute at anything, it didn’t matter what."

The soliders at Gingindlovu were all new, the 1/24th were battle hardened vetrans who according to Smith-Dorrien
were making every round tell.

I think it was established a while back, that it was unclear where Smith was during the battle. until its established for certain his accounts can't be trusted.

Driver Ellis Tucker thought the 24th volleys “cut roads through them."
Higginson said it was blowing them away.
Smith-Dorrien, Essex and Curling make refrence to the attack being stopped dead at 400 yards. At this point
the 1/24th advanced 30 yards to get a better field of fire.

Sorry, LH; who was John Dunn?

Gent's nothing new is being added to this topic. You have covered this ground already, I can see no point in re-posting the same accounts.

Tasker. Type Dunn into the search box on the home page.

Thanks Admin, I am reading up on him now.

"Evelyn Wood sent a cartridge to the Superintendent of the Royal Small Arms Factory from the field of Isandlwana and ‘though it had been rather knocked out of shape, it entered the chamber without difficulty, and gave a muzzle velocity of 1,313 feet per second."



"Privates Williams and Bickley of the 1/24th described ammunition being taken out ‘by bandsmen and wagon drivers and other unarmed people about the camp.’ Despite this they go on to say that they kept firing ‘till they got short of ammunition.’ This suggests that the supply was not good enough to keep up with the rate of fire of the 24th. It supports the idea of logistical difficulties with individual men running over a mile with only the ammunition they can carry. Lock and Quantrill make the valid point that ‘With a wall of warriors only a few hundred yards beyond the firing line, the unarmed ammunition carriers must have been reluctant to venture in that direction.’ Williams and Bickley support the theory that attempts were made to get ammunition to the line but ‘the greater part never got there.’ Lieutenant Essex also mentions a mule cart being loaded to bring ammunition to the men, but this too would have had difficulty negotiating the tents."

Source: Richard West.

Good post Ray.

It seems quite plain and entirely logical that the rate of supply of ammo to the soldiers on the firing lines, was not sufficient to repel the Zulu attack.

This is a recurring point that echoes throughout this entire thread.

Quote :

LH. Impi, I would forget the so called evidence they discussed in the secrets of the dead.

I found this documentary to be very informative. There were certainly some experts involved in the making of this film. So why should the evidence submitted by those experts be forgotten.

On what grounds do you base that statement,

Ray

Because the so called expert, who was firing the the Martini in the footage, when he got a stuck round said "I'd be inclined to throw it down and run away", so much of an expert he'd have known to have taken out his cleaning rod and knock out the cartridge, like Hook said he did.

Excellent point Neil. Even i missed that one. However there probably was some at Isandlwana that did exactly that.

Extract from Hook's account

‘We did so much firing that they became hot and the brass of the cartridges softened and the cartridge chamber jammed. My own rifle jammed several times and I had to work away with the ramrod till I cleared it."

Perhaps Hook was the only one to mentioned rifles jamming, but that's not to say others didn't. In his account Hook says " We did so much firing " Not i did so much firing. He does say his "own rifle jammed several times" But Hook gave his account to the Royal Magazine because he was one of the many awarded the VC. I think it would be very naive to think it was only Hooks rifle that jammed.

Quote :

Quote:
LH. Impi, I would forget the so called evidence they discussed in the secrets of the dead.


I found this documentary to be very informative. There were certainly some experts involved in the making of this film. So why should the evidence submitted by those experts be forgotten.

On what grounds do you base that statement,

Apologies Ray, only just seen this.

1) Tony Pollard, claimes the firing line was further away than first antipated, base on one cartridge being found. There would have been hundreds, that one round could have been moved to the location where it was found in numerous ways.

2) Ammuntion boxes being distributed to the firing lines, based on one tinfoil ring pull. Again could have gotten to where it was found in numerous ways.

3) Ian knight demonstrates the Zulu Spear, and Knobkerry on a sheep or goats skull that looked as though it was older that the Battle of Isandwana itself. You could have hit it with a fag paper and it would have had the same effect.

4) The ammuntion box theory myth busted, the box was made out of pine, and made by members of the production team.

5) The carne where the bone fragments were dugup was not on the Battlefield of Isandlwana but down near the Buffalo river.

6) Rifles Jamming. Neil as already replied to that above.

LH

If the boxes couldn't be busted open

1. Why was Smith-Dorrien " Breaking " them open.
2. Why does Foley saw he saw bandsmen " Breaking " them open.
3. Why does Macphil say he was " Breaking " them open.

Quote :

Why was Smith-Dorrien " Breaking " them open.

He wasn't you said he was out in the front handing out ammuntion.

and the ammuntion came in boxes, that he must have broken into the boxes to give out the ammuntion.........................

Good point DB. Perhaps he was breaking them open with Brickhills watch. :lol:

:lol: That did make me laugh. John I love your humour

It's the way I tell em!!!!!! :joker:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
This shot is taken pretty close to the 2/24th Ammo wagons would have been
parked. The reason for the shot is to show that in this area the rains have
washed away the topsoil. If you look how shallow it is and whats under you
can see why no body dug trenches.
Photo and text by Sprinkbok.

Col: Durnford sent men to the camp requesting a resupply of ammunition and each man was refused because of the quartermasters, who refused to give black soldiers ammuntion telling them they should get ammunition from their own supplies - which, as we know was still on the road from R.D. Why didn't Col: Durnford send one of his white officers in the hierarchy of the British army his officer would have been, senior to any quartermaster, therefore ensuring a supply.

Good point.

Hi Littlehand .
This has been well covered and if you go back through the posts I'm fairly certain he did send ' White ' officers or NCO'S back once the coloured men returned , I may have even posted it myself !.
Cheers 90th.

Not sure he did. ?

Hi John .
If you can be bothered go back to the start of the thread and check , I'm nearly positive I used this info either in this thread or in the spirited debate I had with Julian about the re-supply of ammo to the firing lines etc etc . Not sure what thread it's under as there were a couple of splinter threads which came from the original . As I said if your really keen possibly check my posts under Isandlwana etc going back to earlier this year !!.
Cheers 90th.

Henderson and Davies were sent back for ammunition.

Cheers

Did they get any..

Yes but to late, the retreat had begun when Henderson returned.

Littlehand
The ammunition wagons for Durnfords force where in camp. Stafford had accessed them to issue extra rounds to his troops. There are no records of any wagons still being on the road, and I dont recall any mention of that.

Cheers

You could be right, however I beleive they couldn't find the waggon which was park behind the saddle. Either way they didn't get to it, possibly over-run with Zulus anyway.

I'm sure this has been mentioned before. But here are two primary accounts relating to the ammuntion.

1) Clearly states ammuntion boxes not being opened. Although they managed to find a few rounds.

2) Again he gives clear indication that the solders had expended their ammunition.

So there obviously was a problem with the ammunition. In both distribution and the men being to far away from the camp.

Extracts Diary of Richard Wyatt Vause

"After regaining the camp it was found to our dismay that the ammunition boxes had not been opened and as the Zulus were close on our heels we had no time to look for screwdrivers. Fortunately one of my kaffirs came across a box with a few in which I distributed amongst the men.

By this time the soldiers had expended their ammunition and the Zulus had cut though them and were in amongst the tents and we were obliged to retire again."

Hi Littlehand ,

Correct.
This is very much as was attested by two of the NMP survivors, (Doig and Shannon, I think) who were facing the horn on the nek. However this story is corroborated by other sources as well.


regards

barry

I am really surprised that this thread is still continuing. Members are asking the same questions as previously to which answers have already been given. Many of the recent responses have ignored material already covered, have been plain wrong or taken out of context.
The 24th was plentifully supplied with ammunition. There was no problem with the ammunition supply. Even after they withdrew they were able to maintain firing squares which lasted until their ammunition was exhausted.
The NNH (thanks largely to Vause) did not have access to its ammunition waggons because no-one knew where they were. They were among those that Vause brought into camp after the rest of Column No. 2 had left it. Presumably he left these waggons among the 100 other waggons in the park on the saddle and didn't bother to tell anyone. Davies/Henderson did manage to find a supply (from the NC) and brought it back to Durnford just before he retired from the donga.
Doig and Shannon left no accounts of Isandhlwana. Any alleged quotations from such 'accounts' do not exist.
Smith-Dorrien's account was referring to the ammunition waggon which had been specifically requested by Chelmsford to be kept loaded and ready to move off "at a moment's notice should it be necessary". It bears no relation to the orderliness of the supply of ammunition to the front at Isandhlwana.
24th ammunition waggons were the concern of the two quartermasters. It was the job of the pioneers to assist in the distribution of ammunition at the waggons. Bandsmen were detailed as ammunition carriers. There was an ammunition supply to the line as it moved forward and backward. Company scotch carts were used for the purpose. All this has been well-documented in this forum.
My word, DR Morris did AZW history a great disservice with his fairy tales in TWOTS.

Is Vause talking about his own waggons.

John
Well, he was after ammunition for his own men. He wouldn't be trying to get ammunition for anyone else, would he?

He doesn't say "

Quote :

After regaining the camp it was found to our dismay that the ammunition boxes had not been opened

" Thats where the 24th Ammuntion boxes were.

And why would he mean his own ammunition boxes if he didnt know where his waggons were. He saw ammunition boxes unopened in the camp..

Quote :

And why would he mean his own ammunition boxes if he didnt know where his waggons were

Good point John. He must have been talkiing about the 24th ammo boxes!!!

He may well have been looking for his waggons, but when he states "ammuntion boxes not being opened" it may have just been an observation as he was passing through. Either way whatever boxes he saw were un-opened. Has he mentions the camp it can only be that of the 24ths

barry wrote:

This is very much as was attested by two of the NMP survivors, (Doig and Shannon, I think)

Barry you stated this ages ago and ignored the requests for the accounts to be posted, Doig and Shannon left no account of Isandlwana !!!

Hi John

Vause knew were the ammuntion waggons for his men were becuase he brought them into the camp, no-one else
knew were they were. So what if the 24th boxes weren't open ? They still had ammuntion when they were surrounded on the Nek, so they still had lots of ammo on the line or how would they have reached the Nek ?

LH

There are lots of accounts from people all over the field who state ammuntion was dispatched and arrived with the troops on the line. There are lots of accounts of the 24th firing heavily on the Nek, in camp and even beyond it in the valleys, if they had a serious problem on the line, how would that be possible ?



Cheers

When you say lots. How many exactly.

Discount Smith-Dorrient.

But please remember, I'm only posting an account from someone who was there. And who wrote down his observations, as he made his way back to the camp. I don't dismiss accounts because it doesn't fit it with other accounts.

Some of the accounts contradict others, we can only guess what happened. Whatever ammunition they had was used up on the firing lines or to cover their fall back, if ammunition had been distributed to the front it would not have been in great amounts, handfuls at best. I read that mules were loaded, but nothing to say they arrived at their destination, but there also accounts that say mules were seen kicking off there loads. As LH states Vause his only stating what he witnessed perhaps those on the nek controlled their rate of fire somewhat better than others , who knows?

Ammunition were distributed by scotch cart that carried each 16 boxes of 600 cartridges with a cart per coy ...

Not a soldier of the 24th has missed cartridges or target

There seems to be a thought that the ammo was kept in one place and those boxes were all screwed closed. lets not forget that SD, Vause etc could all be correct, but only as far as there limited observations on a very large battlefield.
There were Battalion ammunition wagons behind each of the camps. There were ammo wagons behind the NMR and horse lines. The Carbineers had there own supplies. Durnford had his own supplies.There was a column ammunition supply. There was a wagon loaded to send of to Chelmsfords column.

Thats seven seperate points that ammo was available. So its highly possible that individuals saw exctly what they say they did..................but under a limited area, nd for a limited time.

A question thats never been answered is ' How could the vast majority ( a well substantiated statement) have fought across the battlefield to the saddle without ammo? There is testimoney concerning the retreat of Younghusband having ammo in his backs to the wall fight. There was a stand by A company very very close to the wagons of the 2nd Battalion.

There are a miriad of statements that have been posted testifying to the amount of firing on the saddle and the foot of Malabamkhosi. There is testimoney and physical evidence of a retreat for some 2 kilometres down to the banks of the stream.

None of these events could have occured without a means of keeping distance between the zulu and the troops.

Eventually the ammunition would have run out, but not on the firing line.

Selective reading and discarding of statements because of some form of racial profiling seems to be the norm in accepting what to believe and what not to believe.

The European suvivors statements do not cover the whole battle, they managed to leave with skins intact long before the end so they collectivly have no idea whatsoever what occured in the last hour.

Cheers

The scotch carts are always forgotten in this affair of ammunitions.

A scotch cart : 16 x 600 = 9600 cartridges

Either the reserve ammunition of any company, as determined by LC

A company spends 384 rounds per minute in volley fire or 1152 rounds per minute in independent fire .

Each soldier carried 70 rounds on him, total of 170 cartridges by soldiers with what was in scotch carts ...

If the battle lasted four hours, each soldier could take 2 cartridges every 3 minutes ...

No problems with the cartridges

Cheers

Pascal

springbok
Well written. I think you'll find there were more than seven too with each company having a small supply too. Who knows what fleeting glimpse Vause may have had when passing through tthe camp - it could well have been of a waggon fully loaded with reserve ammunition - perhaps ironically he saw the Column No. 2 ammunition which Davies-Henderson couldn't locate.
I should have been clearer in my earlier post. Vause was supposed to hurry the waggons into camp for the last few miles. Once at the saddle and safe he and his troop then galloped into camp and away to the north. Lieut. Erskine with 16 men was actually in charge of the waggon escort. Presumably, once he reached the waggon park he went in search of his coy - Stafford's. Probably neither Vause nor Erskine were aware of the exact position of the No 2 Column ammunition waggon. Ultimately it was responsibility of Column No. 2's Conductor McCarthy to park the waggons and to have known where they were and he was never heard of again. He was not named on the casualty roll and he was not a survivor. He has never emerged so I presume he was killed along the trail and his body never found or else it was unidentifiable. So ends the tale of Column No. 2's waggons.

So after you two, we deduce that the line of fire was never properly provisioned with ammunition as it would be with the scotch carts ???