The ammunition question

Pascal
Not at all.
We do know that Essex was involved in loading scotch carts. We cant prove they reached the line. What has been proven is the presence of ammunition boxes and a large quantity of the foil handles plus foil itself were located on the firing line by Tony Polards crew. In addition a large quantity of bent screws. We also know that there was a delivery system in place.

Cheers

Thank you buddy

Because I'll make one of these for each of my companies, but how were they towed in the invasion of zululand ?

They were fitted for the imperial infantry ...

The weight was beings monstrous ...

How many men were allocated to scotch carts, men of each company ? In this case it decreased the power of fire companies ...or specialist ?

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal when the wagons were removed from iSandlwana an inventory was made as to totals. I cant remember the total of scotch carts removed but I have a feeling that there was one per company issued. Open to correction on that but I do recall there was a number re claimed.
Because of the size I would say either Horse or Mule drawn. I would also guess that they were used to transport officers belongings rather than the heavy tents and ammunition, that would have been the work of the larget wagons.

Cheers

yes there was a SCOTCH CART by imperial infantry company and they being towed by a single animal (an officer? :)

These carts were fitted only the imperial infantry, but the responsible for these carts , are the soldiers of each companies ?

Or soldiers of a special corps ?

Several men were necessary to distribute cartridges ...What number ?

Cartridges were brought to men or they came to look for ?

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal
Only with reference to the NNH and Stafford and Nourse's NNC coys - unless of course they made some local arrangement at the time with the 3rd Regt NNC - in the case of the NNH we know that this was so since at the last minute they had to borrow boxes of ammunition from the Carbineers.

Hello my dear Julian (Regarde tes mails)

If I am not too stupid men who led the scotch carts, unloading them, then opened the boxes of cartridges because that were screwed, were infantrymen of the NNC???

Not one of the 24 th infantry with them ? But what is this organization ???

Whenever I go on this forum, I get the clouds , I possed NNC figurines with boxes of cartridges on the shoulders and I did not know what to do ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal
For the 24th: as soon as the action began QMs would have loosened screws on ammunition boxes. As required the ammo boxes would have been totally unscrewed and placed in scotch carts before removal to the front, ready for immediate distribution.
For the NNC of Column No. 3: doubtless there was a similar arrangement in place however I have no evidence that this was so. An eye-witnesses reported seeing two men of the NNC carrying to the front an ammunition box between them (though in what context and who for, no-one knows). As for the NNH and NNC of the 2nd column...had they been in camp long enough even to set up a supply chain - probably not - Durnford had told everyone that he wouldn't be staying in camp, remember, so they may not have been prepared at all...

In coclusion, it is the blacks who took care of everything...for the ammunitions...

Pascal
Carrying it, yes, though probably under the supervision of a European NCO. The distribution would have been under the auspices of a European QM.

Good very good, while you would put next to a scotch cart for any moves towards the line of fire ?

Pascal
Not sure what you mean by that? I don't understand. Write it in French too!
Ton traduction en anglais n'est pas clair mon vieux; je ne te comprends pas! L'ecris-toi en francais!

Quand les scotch carts partent du camp pour rejoindre la ligne de feux ,elles ne sont accompagnées que par des noirs ?

When scotch carts leave the camp to join the line of fire, they are accompanied only by blacks ?

I understand.
Possibly...but not necessarily...it's more likely that they would have been accompanied by a European NCO.

yes it was more prudent .. And how many blacks with a scotch carts?

How long is a piece of string?
Dieu seul le sait. J'aimerais bien le savoir.

There were 16 boxes of cartridges in a cart , as it takes 2 men per carts, I would say that the cartridges was to be delivery very quickly, it takes 32 men per cart + one for the beast...

Note that a box corresponds to the reserve infantry cartridge of 6 men of the 24 th ...

So once the infantry fell precipitately, the boxes are abandoned, the black flee and nobody wants to re-load the cart ...

If the cart has not been discharged at once, if the infantry fell precipitately, the black flees, and again the cart is left to Zulu ...

Many infantrymen have missed cartridges after having fled precipitously ...

Against the Zulus in the gorge until they recover guns ...

I think the Zulus were able to deliver a good part of the battle with MH and plenty of ammunition ..

Good idea ,no ?

Cheers

Pascal.

Quote :

We do know that Essex was involved in loading scotch carts. We cant prove they reached the line. What has been proven is the presence of ammunition boxes and a large quantity of the foil handles plus foil itself were located on the firing line by Tony Polards crew. In addition a large quantity of bent screws. We also know that there was a delivery system in place.

Correct foil handles and bend screws were found on the firing line, but not in great quantities. I think I'm correct in saying, this was shown in the secrets of the dead documentary. One handle was shown and one or two screws. The whole purpose of the excercise was to prove an ammuntion box could be opened by a rifle butt. ( Bearing in mind the box opened in this fashion by Ian Knight was made of pine, by the props crew) anyway I digress.

The ammunition boxes could have been taken a broken open by the Zulus, there are no accounts, by anyone who visited the Battlefield shortly after, that states ammuntion boxes were found anywhere other than the camp area. There are many account of cartridiges being found, but no ammo boxes.

And I could be wrong but I believe there is only one account regarding a scotch cart.

Thought I would post one of my old posts, which I think has a real bearing on the ammuntion resupply at Isandlwana.

Quote :

Subject: Re: The ammunition question   Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:32 am
I have based this on 1100 men with rifles at Isandlwana. I'm not sure how many rounds the Coloinal regiments carried with them ( per person)

So this calculations is only taking into account 900 British soldiers who we know we're allocated 70 rounds each.

70 x 900 = 63,000 rounds between them, without resupply. 

900 men firing 6 rounds each = 5,400 per minuite. 

Based on 1 man firing for 60 minuites he would require 6 x 60 =360 rounds 

Based on 900 men firing for 60 minuites. 360 x 900 = 324,000 with resupply 

So 324.000 take away the original 63,000 = 261,000 addional rounds would be required to keep the men supplied with ammuntion per hour.

But if we stick with the 63, 000 rounds which they had beween them at commencement of battle. And it is said approximately 3000 Zulu were killed at the battle, that leaves approximately 60,000 rounds unaccounted for. Not to mentioned those Zulus killed by artillery fire. 

This is just a rough calculation as I have not included the Coloinal units. 

So in a nut shell did they need a resupply. 900 seasoned men 70 rounds each. 63,000 rounds between them, 20,000 zulus. 

Has Ian Knight stated without resupply the whole of the Zulu Army could have been wiped out in a few volleys. So what went wrong.

John

Why do you think something went wrong ? They retreated becuase they were outflanked, not becuase of
ammuntion.



Cheers

Look at the maths. And that is only based on 900 soldiers.

DB at commencement based on 900 having the allocated 70 rounds

70 x 900 = 63,000 rounds between them, without resupply

Roughly 20,000 Zulus charging into Hardened seasoned soldiers, all good shots. Something went wrong.. With that many rounds would they have needed to retreat.

5,400 rounds would have been fired at the Zulus per minuite. No wonder there are accounts of heavy firing, and the wavering of the Zulus.

Again remember this is based on 900 British soldiers. We know there were more, and we know there were colonial soldiers as well.

Impi

There definatly wasn't 900 soliders !! Maybe 600 at most.

Read Springboks's post, there was no major problem.

How many men were at Isandlwana on the British side.

Based on your 600, that's still 42,000 before commencement.

Springbok gives his opinion as every other member does.

7 Coys of the 24th, around 70 to 80 in each.



Cheers

What about all the Coloinals and cilivian's

Hi All .
I've had this debate with Julian and others a while ago so you more than likely know where I stand on this matter . But I will say ...............
DB .
I think your guess of 70 -80 men per company is high , I'm sure there were less , some as low as 60 if I'm not mistaken .
It's well written that the Imperial Companies at Isandlwana were well down in numbers .
Littlehand .
The bent screws , foil , handles etc , as you say , doesnt mean these were opened by British Troops , the zulu army were also opening these boxes one way or another , and/ or carting them off to be opened anywhere on their march back to their Kraals .
90th.

All
The report by Andrew Greaves on the frontline dig, position 1, 2 and 7 reports significant quantities of foil handles, foil itself ammunition box straps etc. I would imagine that only one was depicted in the TV program as indicative.
Thinking about the zulu wanting the to get into the ammo boxes( not for the ammo by the way, more for the black powder ) I should imagine that this would be done at the wagons rather than carting boxes a mile to the front lines for opening and discarding.
Approx 50 fastenings, mostly bent at 90 degrees were found at or close to the Knuckle. Do the maths, 50 fastenings equals 50 boxes.
This kind of debris was found at the initial firing line and back to the final firing line.
To Quote from that report:
" With regard to the ammunition shortage, I would suggest that this is a myth, as there was ample evidence of ammunition boxes reaching the front lines, as well as high concentrations behind the line suggesting that the soldiers had ample access to ammun ition at all stages of the battle."

Its not quite correct to state that there was no mention of boxes and spent ammo being found afterwards. There are many references to piles of spent ammunition indicating stands and firing lines, probably the easiest to read would be the map prepared by Mainwaring that annotates lines of fighting with notes.

Regards

Regards

Correct foil handles and bend screws were found on the firing line, but not in great quantities. I think I'm correct in saying, this was shown in the secrets of the dead documentary. One handle was shown and one or two screws. The whole purpose of the excercise was to prove an ammuntion box could be opened by a rifle butt. ( Bearing in mind the box opened in this fashion by Ian Knight was made of pine, by the props crew) anyway I digress.

The ammunition boxes could have been taken a broken open by the Zulus, there are no accounts, by anyone who visited the Battlefield shortly after, that states ammuntion boxes were found anywhere other than the camp area. There are many account of cartridiges being found, but no ammo boxes.

And I could be wrong but I believe there is only one account regarding a scotch cart.


When the Zulus retrieve MH, at lond their advance on the British camp, he did not play to dismount cartridges for recover the powder ...

And those who have muskets ormuzzles loading rifles , they have something else to do than to disassemble the cartridges after they have been recovered ...

The disassembling of cartridges, they will after the battle

littlehand ,the wave of Zulu attack at all recovered (scotch carts, boxes of cartridges and cartridges), when the infantry fled his position on the line of fire to try to regain the camp ...

In conclusion, some Zulu warriors finished the battle armed with MH, they could use the MH and ammunition recovered to finish the British in the camp and after

I have based this on 1100 men with rifles at Isandlwana. I'm not sure how many rounds the Coloinal regiments carried with them ( per person)

So this calculations is only taking into account 900 British soldiers who we know we're allocated 70 rounds each.

70 x 900 = 63,000 rounds between them, without resupply.

900 men firing 6 rounds each = 5,400 per minuite.

Based on 1 man firing for 60 minuites he would require 6 x 60 =360 rounds

Based on 900 men firing for 60 minuites. 360 x 900 = 324,000 with resupply

So 324.000 take away the original 63,000 = 261,000 addional rounds would be required to keep the men supplied with ammuntion per hour.

But if we stick with the 63, 000 rounds which they had beween them at commencement of battle. And it is said approximately 3000 Zulu were killed at the battle, that leaves approximately 60,000 rounds unaccounted for. Not to mentioned those Zulus killed by artillery fire.

This is just a rough calculation as I have not included the Coloinal units.

So in a nut shell did they need a resupply. 900 seasoned men 70 rounds each. 63,000 rounds between them, 20,000 zulus.


Anything John, even with the reserve ammunition, knowing that the battle lasting 4 hours maximum, the soldiers of the 24 th could not take that 2 cartridges every three minutes ... And if scotch carts were captured by Zulu on the line of fire, they made fires more slowly than that ...

And the firepower of the colonial units, white or black is quasiement zero, including the firepower of the Natal white units ,question of drill, do not confuse volleys fire of the sublim British imperial infantry with the firepower of the mounted troops present at Isandhlwana

Why do you think something went wrong? They retreated becuase They Were outflanked, not because of ammuntion.

DB14, it is certain that something went wrong , the two companies of the second battalion fled because the colonial troops at their right were unable to contain the Zulu left horn, but the companies of the first battalion, had fled to avoid beings submerged and it has nothing to do with the "maneuver" of the second battalion

Look at the maths. And that is only based on 900 soldiers.

DB at commencement based on 900 having the allocated 70 rounds

70 x 900 = 63,000 rounds between them, without resupply

Roughly 20,000 Zulus charging into Hardened seasoned soldiers, all good shots. Something went wrong.. With that many rounds would they have needed to retreat.

5,400 rounds would have been fired at the Zulus per minuite. No wonder there are accounts of heavy firing, and the wavering of the Zulus.

Again remember this is based on 900 British soldiers. We know there were more, and we know there were colonial soldiers as well.

Impi ,LC had ordered at Pulleine to start the infantry fire at 700 yards in case of attack of the camp ...

Each soldier has 70 rounds on him and 100 in reserve, especially in scotch carts, the battle lasted at least 4 hours, so repeat your calculations

Volley fire - 4 shots per minutes,not 6 - with 5% of hits beyond 300 yards
and 10% of hits between 300 and 100 yards...

Independant fire - 12 shots per minutes - with 10% of hit between 100 yards and the melee

There definatly wasn't 900 soliders !! Maybe 600 at most.

Well said DB14, Impi reread ES

How many men were at Isandlwana on the British side.

Based on your 600, that's still 42,000 before commencement.


Impi reread ES !!!

7 Coys of the 24th, around 70 to 80 in each.

Yes ,very good DB14

What about all the Coloinals and cilivian's

Impi reread ES !!! The firepower of the colonial troops is neglgeable


I've had this debate with Julian and others a while ago so you more than likely know where I stand on this matter . But I will say ...............
DB .
I think your guess of 70 -80 men per company is high , I'm sure there were less , some as low as 60 if I'm not mistaken .
It's well written that the Imperial Companies at Isandlwana were well down in numbers .
Littlehand .
The bent screws , foil , handles etc , as you say , doesnt mean these were opened by British Troops , the zulu army were also opening these boxes one way or another , and/ or carting them off to be opened anywhere on their march back to their Kraals .

Skippy, the companies of the first battalion had certainly more than 60 men each, and those of the second had even greater numbers.

It is certain that the Zulus (or guys like us) did not need to turn screws to open a box of cartridges

The report by Andrew Greaves on the frontline dig, position 1, 2 and 7 reports significant quantities of foil handles, foil itself ammunition box straps etc. I would imagine that only one was depicted in the TV program as indicative.
Thinking about the zulu wanting the to get into the ammo boxes( not for the ammo by the way, more for the black powder ) I should imagine that this would be done at the wagons rather than carting boxes a mile to the front lines for opening and discarding.
Approx 50 fastenings, mostly bent at 90 degrees were found at or close to the Knuckle. Do the maths, 50 fastenings equals 50 boxes.
This kind of debris was found at the initial firing line and back to the final firing line.
To Quote from that report:
" With regard to the ammunition shortage, I would suggest that this is a myth, as there was ample evidence of ammunition boxes reaching the front lines, as well as high concentrations behind the line suggesting that the soldiers had ample access to ammun ition at all stages of the battle."

Its not quite correct to state that there was no mention of boxes and spent ammo being found afterwards. There are many references to piles of spent ammunition indicating stands and firing lines, probably the easiest to read would be the map prepared by Mainwaring that annotates lines of fighting with notes.

springbok9 ,when the Zulus retrieve MH, at lond their advance on the British camp, he did not play to dismount cartridges recover the powder ...

But those who have muskets or rifles loading muzzles, they have something else to do than to disassemble the cartridges after they have been recovered ...

Disassembling cartridges, they will after the battle

Cheers

Pascal

Hi Springbok.
Just because many of the bits and pieces of the ammo boxes were found on the firing line , doesnt neccessarily mean
they were all opened by the Troops , once the troops began to withdraw how many boxes could have been left behind
intact and opened later by the zulu as they were looting the camp ? . We will just never know .
Cheers 90th.

90th
Fair comment. My point was however that I dont beleive the Zulu would carry boxes from the various wagons to the firing line to open them. Why would they, in all that area choose that particular line? I accept that stuff was moved around, quite considerably really, it just seems a remarkable occurence that they elect to carry 50 boxes a mile away, not incidently on their withdrawl route, to open them !
I cannot of course prove they didnt, I cant prove that ammunition got to the line either, but the prevalent circumstance and the weight of avilable evidence would come down firmly, in my humble opinion, on the side of ammo getting through.

Pascal
There is documented evidence that the zulu broke open cartridges for the black powder.As you point out after the battle.

DB
The figures I have for the dead are:
1/24 = 429
2/24 = 176
RA = 64
IMI = 21

These are of course imperial forces only and I fully expect Julian to kick my backside and tell me Im wrong

Hi Skippy

Little certainly, it took 17minutes to soldiers to use all the ammunition they had with them in volley fire (17 x 4 cartridges = 68 ) but the fire began on targets at 700 yards which moved to 100 yards per minute ...

Also the question is very simple: how long companies remained on the line of fire? Then you divide by 4 (4 cartridges per minutes in volley fire ) and you will know how many cartridges have the use of each infantry companies before fleeing to the camp ...

If it remained over 17minutes, they used cartridges that were in the scotch carts

Cheers

Pascal

According to Ian Knight.

"Durnford arrived at iSandlwana some time after 10 AM on the 22nd. There were now about 1700 black and white troops at iSandlwana. But Durnford found that the situation had changed since Chelmsford’s departure; Pulleine reported that a large number of Zulus had appeared after dawn on the skyline of a ridge to the north of the camp, much closer to iSandlwana, on the British left. They had retired from sight, and Pulleine had lacked the mounted troops to investigate further."

springbok9

As there were very few British soldiers killed in the line of fire before their flight to the camp, the Zulus did not recover their MH, the soldiers recovered normally these MH to take with them ... .

By cons, the soldiers do not have to take the content of the Scotch carts and the Scotch carts themselves ... Because this would have slowed down in their flight to the camp.

The Zulus had to use these ammunitions, but later, when the battle took place in the camp ...

Cheers

Pascal

Regarding Ian Knights calculation posted by forum member sas1 1700 men
I have discounted 300 men who may not had rifles NNC ect

So based on 1500 men with rifles at Isandlwana.

So this calculations is only taking into account men with rifles who were allocated 70 rounds each. DB states between 70-80 rounds but lets stick with the lower number. 

70 x 1500 = 105,000 rounds between them at commencement of battle.

1500 men firing 6 rounds each per minute = 9000 rounds per minute

Based on 1 man firing for 60 minuites he would require 6 x 60 =360 rounds 

Based on 1500 men firing for 60 minutes. 1500 x 60 = 90,000 rounds an hour.

Stick with 105,000 the rounds which they had beween them at commencement of battle. And it is said approximately 3000 Zulu were killed at the battle, that leaves approximately 102,000 rounds unaccounted for. Not to mentioned those Zulus killed by artillery fire. 

90th
Sorry mate I think I read your last post wrongly.
Yes its highly possible that boxes of ammo where left on the line by the retreating troops and later on opened by the zulu. But surely that scenario proves the point that ammo was reaching the front, in fact possibly too much ammo!

Cheers

John it's a miscalculation

Firstly nobody Knew or going to experience the Zulu Losses ...

Secondly artillery as zero as well as zero was the rocket launchers and the colonial troops

The bayonet and the independent fire of the 24 th has done much more damage, but only in the camp ...

The infantry was on the line of fire for approx 1 hour and 20 minutes.

That means that each soldiers fired 320 cartridges on the line of fire, If They had fired in volley fire, without stopping, at 4 shots per minute ... it's impossible

This is not possible because each soldier possed a maximun maximun of 170 cartridges, counting his reserve of 100 rounds inthe scotch cart of his company ...

So the maximun rate of fire is (on average) of 2 shots per minute per soldiers, if they used their reserve of cartridge, as this is not the case, at the maximun they Have fired two shots per minute. ..

Nothing to stop the Zulus, why did they not fire much faster ?

Their officers They went well aware of the situation ?

It's possible if the scotch carts Have made several voyages before retirement of the infantry on the camp ...

That Does not Seem to be the case, since one scotch cart carrying all the reserve ammunition of a company, 16 boxes of 600 cartridges

Cheers

Pascal

John
I defy you to fire a martini Henry consistently at a rate of 1 round every ten seconds.
The list of participants, excluding the NNC is around the 1000 mark. That includes the mounted men.
The rate of fire was extremely inconsistent with lulls and companies firing independantly.
Have a look at the calculations using this scenario. then compare it with RD.

Cheers

Yes,in conclusion ,despite all the new breech loading rifles, it was not going faster than with the muzzle loading rifles or muskets...

Cheers

Pascal

I'm sure they were, but with that much ammuntion, the effect would have been far better if the men had been kept together, rather that deployed in companies all over the battle field.

The effective fire would have been 9000 rounds per minute. That pouring into massed Zulu ranks at close range would have been devastating, even more than a Gatling gun.

Springbok.

Quote :

I defy you to fire a martini Henry consistently at a rate of 1 round every ten seconds.

I recall Neil suggests there wouldn't have be a problem with the seasoned soldiers that were there that day. Also there are no complaints regarding Jamming or fowled rifles.

John wrote:

Regarding Ian Knights calculation posted by forum member sas1 1700 men
I have discounted 300 men who may not had rifles NNC ect

So based on 1500 men with rifles at Isandlwana.

So this calculations is only taking into account men with rifles who were allocated 70 rounds each. DB states between 70-80 rounds but lets stick with the lower number. 

70 x 1500 = 105,000 rounds between them at commencement of battle.

1500 men firing 6 rounds each per minute = 9000 rounds per minute

Based on 1 man firing for 60 minuites he would require 6 x 60 =360 rounds 

Based on 1500 men firing for 60 minutes. 1500 x 60 = 90,000 rounds an hour.

Stick with 105,000 the rounds which they had beween them at commencement of battle. And it is said approximately 3000 Zulu were killed at the battle, that leaves approximately 102,000 rounds unaccounted for. Not to mentioned those Zulus killed by artillery fire. 

Assuming men could fire MHs at the rate of 10sec/ round for 1 hour, and at 100% kill rate, yes.
John, how many rounds do you think a soldier fired on average per man killed?

It takes at least a25 cartridges to kill or injure a Zulu ...

My calculations above show that even in this area there , the battle could not be won ...

They would have had arquebuses that this does not make a difference would ...

Quote :

Quote :

Assuming men could fire MHs at the rate of 10sec/ round for 1 hour, and at 100% kill rate, yes. John, how many rounds do you think a soldier fired on average per man k

illed?

I quite happy with 1 round every ten seconds, and hopefully Neil will verify.

Kill rate I'm sure in would have been quite hard not to hit anyone, massed targets.

Well we know they run out of ammuntion, and no rounds were found in the ammo pouches of the dead soldiers, even Zulu accounts verify this, so I can only conclude most used up the allocated 70 rounds.

John, Ian Knight stated if all the men at Isandlwana had fired 35 volleys they would have wiped out the entire Zulu Army.

At RD, the body count compared to the expenditure of ammunition was roughly 20,000 rounds expended to about 350 Zulu bodies.
This is an impressive one kill per 57 rounds fired, but not exactly shooting fish in a barrell either.

Most of the fighting at RD was during the hours of darkness. Which would have had an impact on kills, even in the light of the burning hospital.

John

They did run out, but at the end of the battle when they were surrounded on the Saddle, not on the line !!

If they did run out / short how did Anstey and his men get were they ended up ?

How did almost all of the soliders make it back to camp ?



Cheers

We are not debating wether or not they ran out. We are debating the ammunition expenditure.

John wrote:

Most of the fighting at RD was during the hours of darkness. Which would have had an impact on kills, even in the light of the burning hospital.

We know that John, and there are a 101 other variables that we could factor in also containing both swings and roundabouts. Arguably at RD, it was an even more dense target environment for the defenders than it was at iSandlwana.
I am sure the kill rate has been discussed before somewhere on the forum; I will see if I can locate it.

But if the men had been deployed in line with the situation that have been developing hours before.
in front of the hill in extended lines, that could have waited until the Zulus had advanced to 500 yards, ideal distance for the MH. They could have poured nine thousand rounds a minute into those advancing massed ranks. The first volley would have dropped enough Zulus to create an obstacle for those behind advancing, the second volley would have done much the same, I don't think there would have been need for a third, the Zulu would have withdrawn. They wouldn't have needed a resupplied 70 rounds per man would have sufficed.

John

What about the 5,000 Zulus of the right horn that invaded the rear of the camp ?




Cheers

The hill would have been a natural rear defence. Either way the fire power would have been to much.

Destroy one part of the Zulu formation, and the whole thing fails.

It's hard to image, but had the men been deployed as suggested by John, they would have been firing 9000 rounds per min. I don't know how many Zulu made up the chest?