The missing five hours.

Guest

Hiya Mate, agreed! they were literally tripping
over the high command and had many opportunity's
to interview them on a more convivial footing, but
alas as stated, arrogance coupled with stupidity was
ever a feature of that crowd, Osborn was a prime
example of that ilk..its a shame Mittford did'nt go
that extra mile so to speak! lol, woof woof indeed!.
on strike..we know something of them as you know! Very Happy

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Mon Sep 29, 2014 2:33 pm

Frank
I would agree with you. I also think Ntshingwayo would have been interviewed (perhaps with notes taken) and that somewhere there would have been lodged a report or transcript of that interview. I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist but I do believe that those who come into possession of information which is potentially embarrassing, detrimental, or damaging to them might be tempted to delay, misfile, accidentally lose behind a filing cabinet (or down a kloof), alter or amend, neglect or be unable to find when required, and even ultimately destroy that information if they felt it necessary.
In fact I saw it with my own eyes with historical primary sources behind the Iron Curtain in 1975.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Frank
I would agree with you. I also think Ntshingwayo would have been interviewed (perhaps with notes taken) and that somewhere there would have been lodged a report or transcript of that interview. I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist but I do believe that those who come into possession of information which is potentially embarrassing, detrimental, or damaging to them might be tempted to delay, misfile, accidentally lose behind a filing cabinet (or down a kloof), alter or amend, neglect or be unable to find when required, and even ultimately destroy that information if they felt it necessary.
In fact I saw it with my own eyes with historical primary sources behind the Iron Curtain in 1975.

Bonsoir Julian,
What had you seen with your "own eyes" behind the Iron Curtain in 1975?
Amitiés
Frédéric

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Admin, would it be possible for you to arrange a question time with Peter Quantrill and Ron Lock regarding their artical TMFH. The same setup you had with Ian Knight. We send you our questions you get replies from Peter & Ron. It's such an interesting article.

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:40 am

24th
Take a bow, brilliant idea.
How about it Pete?

Posts : 705 Join date : 2012-05-05

Great idea, as 24th says it is a great essay.

Can't quite remember how it worked with Ian Knight. And I can't find the Ian Knight thread?

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:13 pm

Great idea 24th.. I'm sure Pete could arrange this Peter & Ron. agree

Ray see below.

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Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:23 pm

24th your wish came true!

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Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Thanks to all concerned, for the very quick responce.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Very good news. TMFH is a formidable publication. Ignored by many.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

I did have a question, when I first read TMFH. ? I will have to get the old grey cells working.

Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 46

Pete. If your alive. I have email you a question.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Hi Frank

You posted this image back in Sept 2013 in this TMFH thread. I take it it is the Nwegbeni - but can you pinpoint from where it was taken please.

Regards
Steve

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Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:13 pm

Hi Steve
the photo was taken from the top of Mabaso looking down into the Ngwebini valley, the rift cutting across the photo is the lower Ngwebini stream.

Cheers

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Thanks Frank, is that looking South or North?

Another favour if you will. I am trying to pin down locations on Google Earth.

PQ posted the following back in 2012. It describes where the tour guides traditionally go to point out where the Impi was discovered by Raw.

"For tour guides this could prove difficult, as part of the central 'battle story' evolves around tourists being driven down the Nqutu/Babanango road, then on to district road 1265 just as it enters Mabaso Village on Mabaso Hill. Then the immortal lines, waiting to inform the disgorged tourists as they stand looking down into the ravine:
"Then, in astonishment, he (Raw) stared into the ravine itself. Closely packed and sitting in utter silence covering the floor of the ravine and perched on the steeply rising sides, stretched as far as the eye could see in both directions, were over 20,000 Zulu warriors. The main impi had finally been found."
Fact or fiction? That is the debate."

Can you point out for me where that is on the GE map, where the Nwegbeni Ravine is, where Mabaso Hill is and where point X is please?

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Regards
Steve

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:39 pm

Hi Steve
I will give it a go.
Bottom left of the map around a third of the way up its marked iThusi Valley, from there is the road from iSandlwana, faint grey line. It hits up against the yellow Babanago/Nqutu road. Slightu above that junction is a darkish area, that's the Ngwebini stream coming round the side of Mabaso, on the North West tip of the dark area the stream starts to meander east then North east. At the point it turns from East to North East there is a ridge moving upper left to lower right, that's the ridge Raw 'theoretically' and traditionally saw the impi that were in the stream below. Its also the place I took the phot. looking aprox NE.

Go back to that junction of the iSandlwana/babanango road then move along the yellow slightly south east and you will see a faint road moving of to the nE, that's the roas that cuts through the present village, the track ends on the ridge and is the point the tourists take to the view point down into the Ngwebini valley.

Point x itself, easiest was is for you to relook at TMFHT, Pete and ron have put in the co ordinates, punch into Google maps. It is Appox (very) above the iThusi heights, on your map, cross the iSandlwana road and in the junction between the two light coloured dongas. But best you google it.

Cheers

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:49 pm

Steve
A couple of my working maps, hope these will help.
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Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Excellent Frank, very helpful indeed.

Steve

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:02 pm

Interestingly about the arguments for and against TMFH is that they do split into two sections ( Not for and against) but one of people that have been on site, done the walks, and made a serious attempt at timing the distance and secondly the more academic that examines the documentation and attributes.
I think that also tends to separate the yes' from the nays as well. In other words the practical boots on the ground tends to be more positive.
Unfortunatly Im far to old to emulate the two Zulu runners sent by Pete and Ron but I have walked it, both ways and climbed out of the valley plus walking around Mabaso in both directions, and rode those distances on an of road motor bike so I fall well and truly into the first section, the timing works for me very well.

Or as the saying goes, Pays your money and take yer choice.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I have been working through all of the TMFH back posts on this site and RDVC - quite a marathon but very illuminating. Some excellent pieces - in particular from the late Mike McCabe. I too sit mainly in the yes camp so far as the original paper is concerned (though I have not been anywhere near where the events took place).

I remember when, some time ago, we were discussing the ground and you posted the new Street View of where the Ngwebeni stream crosses the Babango Road. Very near to point X. I understand much better now how the impi, which had been in the deeper part of the valley, could well have appeared to Raw stretching away up the stream.

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I also I think McCabe had it right when he said the the paper throws up a whole range of interesting discussions well beyond the 'was it or wasn't it point X" stuff. The fact (my word) that Wood annotated the maps, that he met Raw and walked the battlefield with him, that Wood supported Edward Durnford by lending the maps to him. That Eugenie presented Raw with a trophy. That Hlubi became the local Zulu Kinglet afterwards. All that warrants further thought and research.

So an important paper for all sorts of reasons. Still trying to think up some questions for Q&L.

Steve

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:29 pm

The problem with viewing this particular area at present is that way back in 1879 these roads didn't exist. To get over the iThusi ridge where it joins up to Mabaso they bulldozed a fairly large chunk of ground and the fill was dumped into the hollow ground below Mabaso so it tends to distort the true nature of the ground itself.
That type of situation reached a pretty silly point when in a debate about the position of attack from the plateau a certain Lt Col sarcastically asked if the impi would have parachuted of the roof of the iSandlwana lodge.
If you look at the KC maps with more of a critical eye on the contours it makes a lot more sense than todays photos. Mike McCabe was at great pains at times to point that out.

Cheers

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:48 am

Gents I have received 5 questions none relevant to TMFH. Can we safely say, that no one has any questions, that can dispute TMFH publication.

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:07 am

Sorry Pete
Havent had a chance yet, but yes I have a couple of pertinent questions that Id would really like to run through with Ron and Pete. Give me a few days.

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

Pete

Have sent you some possible questions for L&Q.

Steve

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

I'm struggling to see what questions can be asked. The whole publication has been sewed up with primary source evidence. And from what I can see, on both this forum and the RDVC, people dispute parts of the publication but failed to provide evidence for their arguments. What if's and Sarnario's have no part to play in TMFH publication.

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:41 pm

John
Actually there's a lot that can be asked and challenged. We'll see what emerges.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

Julian as I have said, What if's and Sarnario's have no part to play in TMFH publication. Can't really see a part in it for you!

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:53 pm

I beg your pardon?

Subject: TMFH Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:11 am

John
I think you'll be surprised how many zulu war authors & historians have some sort of issue with the theory , it's not my job to point them out . If you do enough reading , and searching , you may find out for yourself . As I said , it isnt my place to point them out , you can spend ( if you can be bothered ? ) a lot of time searching , and finding their responses , which , in many cases , counteract what Ron & Peter suggest . I'll let you go so you can get started ! You need to study mo

90th

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:23 am

Frank Allewell wrote:: Steve
A couple of my working maps, hope these will help.
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Thanks Frank for your working map mate spot on in my eyes i been there twice and its spot on, one question mate
K section what does that relates to please

thanks again for your views

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:38 am

Morning Aussie
K section is a portion of a village, its annotated on the Google map itself, nothing to do with the war.

Cheer Mate

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:43 am

Morning John
Going to have to disagree with you Im afraid. Ron and Pete have jumped to quite a few conclusions themselves, Im going to post a couple of questions and they will point out a couple of those 'leaps of faith' in particular the positioning of the Carbineers on piquet duty.
Cheers

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:59 am

I shall also have some questions to be passed on to admin as well - I hope later on today when I have some time free.

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

90th wrote:: John
I think you'll be surprised how many zulu war authors & historians have some sort of issue with the theory , it's not my job to point them out . If you do enough reading , and searching , you may find out for yourself . As I said , it isnt my place to point them out , you can spend ( if you can be bothered ? ) a lot of time searching , and finding their responses , which , in many cases , counteract what Ron & Peter suggest . I'll let you go so you can get started !
90th

I could say, the same with you reading MOFYS.

Subject: TMFH Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:09 pm

John
Unlike your belief involving TMFH sarnarios !! , I did attempt to find , and locate the ' Dorrient ' as opposed to Dorrien evidence , I did look for a few hours , and of course found nothing , because the name change wasnt done officially .. Horace , as he said in your post , used it himself . Which is why he's never listed as Dorrient anywhere ! , except by himself , and you . Thanks for taking the time to post your source .
90th

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:15 pm

A type of Italian sandwich perhaps?

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:16 pm

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:38 pm

I have received quite a few questions, from various members, the answers to those questions, which will be posted on the
Sunday the 10th May. So if you have any questions relating to TMFH publication get them to me ASAP.

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:51 pm

Don't forget, if you have any questions, let me have them ASAP.

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:15 am

Hi Guys

I have been reading a great book " For God Queen And Country " this should end weather the main Zulu army was discovered in the Ngbweni valley
Page 294 paragraph 2 states " As the force sent up the Nqutu Plateau gained the high ground they noticed small groups of Zulu here and there,who retired before them they gave chase and were intent on capturing a small herd of cattle which they were attempting to round up, when the ground in front fell away and before them sat a Zulu army some 25,000 strong "
this clearly shows you that they were on the Nqutu Plateau when the cattle was seen a long way from the Ngbweni valley remember the very reason they were sent up is because an earlier report states an impi were retiring they too would of been seen from the other side of Magago Knoll know one ever ventured out beyond that point
i would love to hear from as many of you as possible

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Lt Heaton didn't take part in the Battle. Possible he writes what he was told by survivors.

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:14 am

Hi Aussie
I would agree with Impi. I firmly believe that the impi was out of the valley but that view is based on the timing rather than statements such as Heaton.

Cheers

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:08 am

Frank Allewell wrote:: Hi Aussie
I would agree with Impi. I firmly believe that the impi was out of the valley but that view is based on the timing rather than statements such as Heaton.

Cheers

Who exactly is Heaton can you give me his background and any idea were he got that statement from mate

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Sun Aug 23, 2015 10:21 am

Hi Aussie
Try this link
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Cheers

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:43 pm

Thanks Frank

i just relized i have the book For Queen and Country been reading it all i can find half way through page 31 he states the zulu army was discovered at the Ngbweni valley are you certain my above statement was from Heaton mate can you shed some light please also that statement in For God
Queen and Colony does not give a direct reference so could it be the authors opinion i am confused

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:28 pm

It may well be the author's opinion (if it's not footnoted) but it is also in Heaton.
The question is what were the Zulus doing out of the valley when they were discovered. Lock & Quantrill maintain they were already moving towards Isandhlwana with a view to commencing an attack (unsubstantiated in my opinion and contrary to other contemporary British and Zulu accounts) or were they manoeuvring into position in preparation for an attack on the morrow (the impi's regiments as it did move forward were not in their right position and were a little mixed up).

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:11 pm

But could be substantiated, depending how Mehlokazulu is read!
'Presently I heard Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble. When they had done so he gave orders for the others to assemble and advance in the direction of the English camp."
The problem really is again the time scale, did that observation occur in the valley? Leading to the Zulus leaving the valley along the line of the Ngwebini stream only to be seen AFter they left the valley. Or were the Zulu already in the upper reaches of the Ngwebini at that time. Its a moot point really.

Cheers

Subject: Re: The missing five hours. Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:18 pm

One of the main arguments against L and Q has always been the number of Zulu commentaries that mention 'it was not our intention to attack that day." I would believe that is factual, BUT, plans do change at senior management level without the reasons for doing so filtering down to grass roots. Hence the old Army cry of:"I think Im a mushroom because they keep me in the dark......... etc."
So I personaly discount those comments as honest but lost in the moment.

Cheers

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I think it is right that the plans changed and I agree that may not have filtered down to those who subsequently said the intention was to attack the following day. But the real question is did the plan change because the Impi was discovered or, was it changed before that contact occurred and if so, why? Was it because they knew that LC had left with half his force and there was a window of opportunity?

Steve

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