Which formed the angle?

Hi all

Which formed the angle?

Who knows exactly what the units which formed the angle between the 3/60 th Rifles and the 91 st Highlanders at Gingindlovu ?

Cheers

Pascal

A when there is no question of Isandhlwana and RD, it does nobody interested ...

Hi Rascal .
According to Ian Castle and Ian Knight's book '' Fearful Hard Times '' page 201 has a diagram / map of the square at Gingindlovhu , the 60th Rifles formed the front face of the square and the 91st formed the rear face . If anyone has this book they may scan it and post it for you with luck .
Cheers Skippy ! .

Thank you Skippy

I found a map of Gingindhlovu laager where we see that the 60th joined the 91st, but there was necessarily crew weapons served by -gunners or sailors between these two battalions to form the angle, but why and served by whom ? ...


Cheers

Pascal the Rascal

Hi Rascal .
From where did you find your diagram ? . It's differant from the one in the Castle & Knight book ! .
Cheers 90th.

Skippy ,my diagram is on : www.britishbattles.com/zulu-war/gingindlovu.htm

Pascal,

I believe that the map you referred to, which shows the 60th flanking the 91st, is incorrect.

There is a map of “The Battle of Ginghilova” in the Times of London, May 8, 1879. I am afraid that I do not have a copy, but I did make a drawing for my notes, and it showed the 57th on the right of the 60th. If anyone has a copy of this sketch from the Times of London, please be so kind as to post it

The location of the forces at the battle are contained in the following excerpt from a letter written on April 10, 1879 at Durban, Natal, by Lord Chelmsford to the Secretary of State for War.

“The north or front face was held by the 60th Rifles; the right flank face by the 57th 'Regiment; left flank face by the 99th Regiment and "The Buffs"; the rear face by the 91st Regiment; and each angle was manned by the Naval Brigade, Blue Jackets, and Marines, the Gatling of the "Boadicea" being on the north-east corner; two rocket tubes on the north-west, under Lieutenant Kerr (sic); two 9-pounder guns under Lieutenant Kingscote on the south-west; and one Gatling and two rocket tubes, on the south-east, under Commander Brackenbury.”

Source: The London Gazette, May 7, 1879, page 3247

Note: The “Lieutenant Kerr” referred to in Chelmsford’s letter is Lieutenant Carr, Royal Navy, HMS Boadicea.

Now to answer your question of who held the corners (angles) of the square at Gingindlovu – it was the Naval Brigade, made up of sailors and marines from HMS Boadicea, HMS Shah and HMS Tenedos, under the command of Commander John Brackenbury. Also present Commodore Richards who did not take a commanding roll. Richards was accompanied by his Aide-de-Camp, Lieutenant Preedy. The Navy had the only field pieces with the Eshowe Relief Column, and because of that they had the honor of defending the corners, and were distributed as follows:

Front left corner (Northwest)
Commanded by Lieutenant Carr, “Boadicea”
One company of sailors from “Boadicea”
“Number One” company of Royal Marines from “Boadicea” under Captain Burrowes of the Royal Marine Artillery, "Shah"
Two 24 lb rocket tubes
Total strength: 90 men

Front right corner (Northeast)
Commanded by Lieutenant Hobkirk, “Boadicea”
One company of sailors from “Boadicea”
Captain Philips, R.M.L.I. in overall command of the marines
“Number Two” company of Royal Marines from “Shah” and “Tenedos,” under Lieutenant Robyns, R.M.L.I., from HMS Boadicea
One Gatling gun from “Boadicea”
Total strength: 143 men

Rear right corner (Southeast)
Commanded by Commander Brackenbury, “Shah”
“C” and “D” companies of sailors from HMS “Shah”
Two 24 lb rocket tubes
One Gatling gun from “Shah” commanded by Lieutenant Drummond
Total strength: 175 men

Rear left corner (Southwest)
Commanded by Lieutenant Kingscote, HMS Tenedos
“A” and “B” companies of sailors from “Shah”
Sailors of HMS Tenedos commanded by Sub-Lieutenant Startin, "Tenedos"
Two 9 pr guns commanded by Lieutenant Lindsay, “Shah”
Total strength: 158 men



Petty Officer Tom

Hello and thank you Petty Officer Tom

So if I understand, between the 3/60 th and the 57 th there was :

Front right corner (Northeast)
Commanded by Lieutenant Hobkirk, “Boadicea”
One company of sailors from “Boadicea”
Captain Philips, R.M.L.I. in overall command of the marines
“Number Two” company of Royal Marines from “Shah” and “Tenedos,” under Lieutenant Robyns, R.M.L.I., from HMS Boadicea
One Gatling gun from “Boadicea”
Total strength: 143 men

Please, what was the number of men of this company of sailors of the "Boadicea" ?

Please, what was the number of men of this “Number Two” company of Royal Marines from “Shah” and “Tenedos,” under Lieutenant Robyns, R.M.L.I., from HMS Boadicea ?

Please,how many sailors /servants for thIs Gatling gun from “Boadicea” ?

So if I understand, between the 57 th and the 91 th there was :

Rear right corner (Southeast)
Commanded by Commander Brackenbury, “Shah”
“C” and “D” companies of sailors from HMS “Shah”
Two 24 lb rocket tubes
One Gatling gun from “Shah” commanded by Lieutenant Drummond
Total strength: 175 men

Please, what was the number of men of the "C" company of sailors of the HMS "Shah" and what was the number of men of the "D" company of sailors of the HMS "Shah" ?

Please, how many sailors /servants for each of these two 24 lb rocket tubes ?

Please, how many sailors /servants for this Gatling gun from the“Shah”?

So if I understand, between the 91 th and the 99th Regiment and "The Buffs" there was :

Rear left corner (Southwest)
Commanded by Lieutenant Kingscote, HMS Tenedos
“A” and “B” companies of sailors from “Shah”
Sailors of HMS Tenedos commanded by Lieutenant Startin, "Tenedos"
Two 9 pdrs guns commanded by Lieutenant Lindsay, “Shah”
Total strength: 158 men

Please, what was the number of men of the “A” company of sailors of the HMS "Shah" and what was the number of men of the “B” company of sailors of the HMS "Shah" ?

Please, what was the number of Sailors of the HMS Tenedos commanded by Lieutenant Startin, of the "Tenedos" ?

Please, how many sailors /servants of the “Shah” for each of these two 9 pdrs guns ?

So if I understand, between the 99th Regiment /"The Buffs" and the 3/60 th there was :

Front left corner (Northwest)
Commanded by Lieutenant Carr, “Boadicea”
One company of sailors from “Boadicea”
“Number One” company of Royal Marines from “Boadicea” under Captain Burrowes of the Royal Marine Artillery, "Shah"
Two 24 lb rocket tubes
Total strength: 90 men

Please, what was the number of men of this company of sailors of the "Boadicea" ?

Please, what was the number of men of this "Number One" company of Royal Marines from "Boadicea" under Captain Burrowes of the Royal Marine Artillery, "Shah" ?

Please,how many sailors/servants for each of these two 24 lb rocket tubes ?



the 99th Regiment was to the Northwest Angle and "The Buffs" to the south-west corner ...??

Everything that you have said will force me to really take care of the Royal Navy, one of these days ... In 2013 I hope ...

The above example will be super interesting because the sailors were all different outfits depending on their ship ...

By cons, Marines, sailors / servants of 9 pdrs gun and 24 lb rocket tubes do not exist in the trade, I'll still have fun with the "Green Stuff"...

And of course, with the chance that I have the type of 9 pdrs used by the Navy is different from that of the army ...

Best regards and Merry Christmas

Pascal

Pascal,

I have not been able to find any references to the number of sailors, or marines, in each company at Gingindlovu, so I don’t know how many men were in the different companies. I am sure there is a record somewhere, but I have not seen it. There was a book entitled “The Sailor’s Pocket BooK” by Captain F. G. D. Bedford, R.N., 1877, which referred to naval brigade companies containing 50 men. There were 41 men from “Tenedos”, but I don’t know if all of them were in Sub-Lieutenant Startin’s company. Some men from the ships were used as medical orderlies, and other duties, making the unavailable for a combat roll.

The marine companies contained a total of 108. “Boadicea” had 35 marines. “Shah” and “Tenedos” had 68 and 15, for a total of 83.

From photographs I have seen, the Gatling guns had 5 men crews.

9 pounder guns had 5 men crews.

According to an article by Major D. D. Hall in the “Military History Journal” the navy had the experimental 9 pr, 6 cwt, RML gun, Sea Service. (Source: The South African Military History Society, Military History Journal, Vol 4, No 4, “Artillery in the Zulu War – 1879”)

Here is the link to their site. There is a photograph of the gun about half-way through the article.

http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol044dh.html

I don’t know how many men in a rocket crew. It would not have to be many – possibly 2 or 3.

Joyeux Noël


Petty Officer Tom

Thank you to you Tom Petty Officer

This is much what you do and this we change of Issandhlwana and RD ...

Thank you for the merry Christmas

Tom Petty Officer, I wish you a very, very good year 2013, but also a very, very good health in 2013 as we say in Brittany

Best regards

Pascal

Thank you John,

It's always good to take .

Best regards

Pascal

Petty officer Tom is quite right. In different words but in precisely the same formation the line-up is given by Norris-Newman in the Standard and in his book 'In Zululand with the British' p. 137.
The number of naval personnel present from the 1st Brigade was 350 men from the Naval Brigade, and from the 2nd Brigade was 190 men from the Naval Brigade and 100 Royal Marines (source: Rothwell, Narrative of Field Operations...)

Hi Julian

It is we advance, this forum is a real and huge encyclopedia would be paid for visit ... (except me )

Cheers

Pascal

I forgot to say that Norris-Newman was at Gingindhlovu and so it was his business to get the facts right. I believe, though I am not sure, that it was his report that was used as the basis for the Gazette.
The Rothwell figures would have been approx. So PO Tom's 108 Marines is perfectly in accordance with Rothwell's 100. And so on...

Julian,

I used the figures for the number of marines that were included in Commodore Richards’ report, April 11, 1879. The title of the report was “Nominal Report of Officers, Seaman, and Marines landed from Her Majesty’s Fleet as a Naval Brigade, who took part in the engagement at Gingilhovo (sic) on April 2, 1879”


Petty Officer Tom

Good ,good ,It is we advance

PO Tom
Then I am sure he was right!

Again ,agin on this topic...

Pascal,

Since you asked for more, here is a summary of the battle from a Naval Brigade point-of-view.

2 Apr – (Battle of Gingindlovu) Sometime around 2:00 – 3:00 am Lord Chelmsford and staff were making the rounds of the camp. A correspondent who accompanied them noted that as they passed the corner held by Commander Brackenbury, he overheard a bearded blue-jacket ask one of his comrades “Bill, are Ketchwayo’s beggars never a-coming?”

After reville, the correspondent Charles Fripp noted that the sailors near him had lit their fires outside of the trenches. Some were preparing their breakfast, and others were going up and down the slope fetching water. When the bugle was sounded, the sailors abandoned their work, and manned their trenches, one sailor picking up his cooking pot and taking it with him.

The Naval Brigade took up their positions, manning the corners of the square. The north face of the square was held by the 60th; the east by the 57th; the 91st were at the south; and the 99th & 3rd held the west face.

Front Left Corner (N.W.)
Gunry Lt. Carr, RN (Boadicea) in command
1 Company of Navy personnel (Boadicea)
No. 1 Company Marines (Boadicea) under Captain Burrowes, RMA (Shah)
Two 24 lb Rockets Tubes

Front Right Corner (N.E.)
Lt. Hobkirk, RN (Boadicea) in command
1 Company of Navy personnel (Boadicea)
Captain Phillips RMLI (Shah)
No. 2 Company Marines (Tenedos & Shah) under Lt. Robyns, RMLI (Boadicea)
One Gatling gun (Boadicea)

Rear Left Corner (S.W.)
Lt. Kingscote, RN (Tenedos) in command
A & B Companies Naval personnel (Shah)
Men of HMS Tenedos, Sub-Lt. Startin (Tenedos)
Two 9 lb guns under Lt. Lindsay (Shah)

Rear Right Corner (S.E.)
Commander Brackenbury (Shah) in command
C & D Companies Naval personnel (Shah)
One Gatling (Shah) under Lt. Drummond
Two 24 lb Rocket Tubes

At about 6:15 am the Zulu began their attack with the Northeast corner being the first engaged. A Petty Officer in charge of the Boadicea’s Gatling asked Captain Buller, one of Chelmsford’s staff, for permission to fire. "Beg your pardon, sir," he said, "last night I stepped the distance to that bush where those blacks are, and it's just eight hundred yards. This 'no firing' seems like throwing a chance away. I've got her laid true for them; may I just give her half a turn of the handle?” He received permission to test the range, and gave a quick two turns of the handle clearing a path through the Zulus.

Hamilton –Browne, who was present at Gingindlovu, recorded “When I reached the Gatling the Zulu skirmishers were beginning to close in and the cool, staid old shell-back in charge of the gun was simply pop-popping at them in a quiet leisurely sort of a way, a proceeding that did not seem to meet with the approbation of a youthful ordinary seaman who was assisting him, and who, as I came up, said in rather an excited manner, " Fire quicker, Quarter-master, for Gawd's sake, fire quicker.” “Fire quicker," growled the ancient mariner, pausing to expectorate a much-chewed quid. "Fire quicker, yer young scupperling, fire quicker be d____d, wait till the black _______ come thicker," and for a few moments he continued his deliberate manipulations. Presently came the rush, … and the ordinary seaman had no longer need to exhort his senior to expedite the juice distributor which, fortunately not jamming and being backed up by the steady fire of the blue-jackets and jollies, in my humble opinion, saved the whole outfit from being cut up both physically and morally.”

Captain Molyneux, who was also present and witnessed the Gatling gun crew in action, commented that “the effect of the fire of a machinegun is awful if it is served by a cool hand; the gun has no nerves, and, provided the man is steady and the cartridges do not jamb, nothing can live in front of it. The captain of this gun was a veteran, and afterwards during the fight his exhortations to his crew would have made, when carefully expurgated, an admirable essay on behaviour under fire.”

As the attack on the north face of the square manned by the 60th faltered, the Zulu engaged the east face. Here again they were met with volley fire from the 99th and 3rd, along with the rockets and rifle fire of the Naval Brigade at the northwest corner. One witness stated “Much execution was done by the rockets. Fourteen Zulus were killed by one charge alone.” Next came the right horn of the Zulu charge against the south face of the square. Here they were met by the 91st, the 9 pounders of the Naval Brigade at the southwest corner, and the Gatling and rockets at the southeast corner. Commander Brackenbury was extolling the men to be steady and not waste ammunition. About an hour and a half after the beginning of the battle the Zulu withdrew. One observer noted that “The Naval Brigade behaved admirably, and were as steady as possible.”

John Dunn later writing about the battle stated that “the Naval Brigade did good service. I much preferred their style of going to work in action, travelling, and things in general, to that adopted by the other branch of the service.”

Another observer quoted in the Times of Natal stated that “the whole of the Naval Brigade were steadfast personified, and seemed quite disappointed when the action ceased.”

While the Zulu were retreating, a large body of them had gathered on a hill about a mile from the laager. The 9 pound guns, under command of Lieutenant Charles Lindsay, fired upon them, killing several and scattering the rest.

Commodore Richards, HMS Boadicea, who had ordered his men not to break ranks to pursue the fleeing Zulu, himself rushed after them, along with his flag lieutenant, Lieutenant Preedy, while the men cheered him on. Commodore Richards was not there in command of the Naval Brigade, but had attached himself to Lord Chelmsford’s staff.

During the fighting the medical officers had to treat the wounded while under fire. None of the wounded could be moved to the rear where the ambulance was parked. Three bell tents had been set up inside the square next to the ambulance. When the battle ended, the wounded were taken by their own men to the rear. There the doctors tended to the wounded, the naval doctors being Staff Surgeon Shield (“Shah”), and Surgeons Sibbald (“Shah”) and Pollard (“Boadicea”). The senior naval medical officer, Staff Surgeon Longfield (“Tenedos”) became one of their patients when he was shot while he was removing a bullet from a wounded soldier of the 99th. The bullet struck his right arm causing a compound fracture. For the next four days he remained in the laager with the other wounded and sick.

The number of Naval Brigade casualties during the battle, were light. In addition to Staff Surgeon Longfield, “Tenedos,” the following men were wounded: Petty Officer 1st Class J. Porteous, “Active” (serving with the “Tenedos” contingent), wounded in left arm; Able Seaman E. Bird, “Shah,” received gunshot to left shoulder and chest while he was preparing to fire; Able Seaman J. Bulger, “Shah,” received gunshot wound to right shoulder; Carpenter’s Mate P. Condy, “Boadicea,” wounded in the right arm while he was loading the drums for the Gatling; Boy J. Hinchley, “Boadicea,” was shot in his right thigh while he was firing his rifle; and Acting Bombardier J. Parfitt, RMA, “Boadicea,” received a gunshot wound to his right arm and shoulder.

There were several close calls. Lieutenant Milne’s coat was struck by a bullet which passed through without injuring him, and two of the “Shah’s” men each had their cutlasses hit by a bullet. Petty Officer William Jenkins of the “Shah” noted that two men to his left were severely wounded, and that both a man of the NNC, and a horse, were shot behind him.

After the fight the men walked out onto the battlefield. Henry Eason, “Shah,” recorded in his diary “After it was over we went outside and saw the dead. The sight I witnessed I shall never forget. They were laying about in all directions, and some of them not quite dead. One of our marines had a narrow escape of being assagied by one who lay as if dead, and then made a jump up, but a bullet from the marine’s rifle prevented him from again trying to kill anyone.” Royal Marine Artillery Sergeant Whittaker, “Shah” wrote in a letter home “When we went out after the engagement to count their wounded and dead, I saw some sickening sights; nine out of ten were shot through the head, on account of their crouching position in the grass, so they did not suffer long with it. Every one was naked, and many with three, some with four, and one I saw with six hits. I am sure no man need wish to view a battlefield a second time.”

An unknown naval officer, in a letter to a relative, wrote “The plucky way in which the Zulu came up to the entrenchments under a galling fire was wonderful. Seven were found lying between 27 and 35 paces of one of the Gatling guns. The rockets, too, did effective work. In one place 13 Zulus were found lying close to one together, evidently killed by one rocket. They were all on their faces, as they had thrown themselves when they saw the rocket coming. They were fearfully burnt by the back fire and covered with sulphur.”

With the battle over, the next task was that of burying the dead. An officer of the N.N.C. noted that “the soldiers buried 473, and the marines 127.”

During the battle the Naval Brigade fired about 1,200 rounds from the Gatlings and forty rounds from the 9 lb guns.

The officers of the Naval Brigade who had a part in the battle were:

Commander Brackenbury Lieutenant Lindsay, Lieutenant Drummond, Lieutenant Henderson, Sub-Lieutenant Hamilton, Sub-Lieutenant Smith-Dorrien, Gunner O’Neill, Gunner Cook, Boatswain Hammett, Clerk Chapple, Staff Surgeon Shields, Surgeon Sibbald, Captain Philips, RMLI and Captain Burrows, RMA with 256 blue jackets and 68 marines (HMS Shah);

Lieutenant Carr, Lieutenant Hobkirk, Lieutenant Benett, Lieutenant Preedy, Sub-Lieutenant Lyon, Midshipman Warrender, Midshipman Hewett, Midshipman Crookshank, Midshipman Colville, Surgeon Pollard, and Lieutenant Robyns, RMLI with 151 blue jackets and 35 marines (HMS Boadicea);

Lieutenant Kingscote, Sub-Lieutenant Startin, Staff Surgeon Longfield with 41 blue jackets and 15 marines (HMS Tenedos)

Also present was Lieutenant Milne (HMS Active), Aide-de-Camp to Lord Chelmsford, Commodore Richards (HMS Boadicea), and his Aide-de-Camp, Lieutenant Preedy (HMS Boadicea).


Petty Officer Tom

Congratulations and thank you Petty Officer Tom

If LC ​​was less dismissive of the Zulu, the battles of the beginning of the invasion beings should have delivered, as it ...

Thank you for your help in a few months or years I need you bottom for details of uniforms, already one thing worries me, what kind of Buggles use sailors and marines ...?

When I think how I'm tired of my first 30 figures of the 91 st when he did not fight hard ...

Now it would be super interesting to know the exact constitution of the Zulu army at Gingindlovu,
It to calculate the balance of power for each stage of the battle ...

What Amabutho were in the right Horn ?

What Amabutho were in the left Horn ?

What the Amabutho were in the Chest ?

What Amabutho were in the Loins ?

In any case Thanks again Petty Officer Tom and I wish you a very happy new year 2013 and especially a very healthy next year , because this is the most important

Best regards

Pascal