Captain David Murray Smythe, 1st Batt. 1st Regt. Natal Native Contingent.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Dundee Courier, Saturday 11 February 1928.

From ' For God , Queen & Colony ' By Terry Sole .
Capt Smythe , D.M. Late 79th Regt , shortly after Isandlwana he returned to the UK . He was not present at Isandlwana .
Cheers 90th.

I take it, this is the same chap.

COLONEL DAVID MURRAY SMYTHE, THIRTEENTH OF BRACO AND SEVENTH OF METHVEN CASTLE. 
"The present owner of these estates was born on 17th November 1850; he served in the Cameron Highlanders and in the Zulu War 1878-1879 and commanded the 3rd Battalion of the Black Watch until 1897. Col. Smythe is Deputy-Lieutenant and Justice of the Peace for Perthshire; he married on 17th September 1898 Katherine, fourth daughter of William, third Lord Bagot. They had a daughter Barbara."

littlehand, again, outstanding. xhosa

Thanks to all, but note that Sole does not say why he thinks Smythe was not at Isandhlwana. I know that the obituary does not mention it but then it mentions nothing about his other military experiences either.
Terry Sole is not someone I've had dealings with personally. If anyone has, can I suggest that you ask him his reasons for the remark. If he has definitive information I would very much like to know. If no-one has, let me know and I'll contact him via his publisher.

Crealock created a troops return, undated but appro January 1879 in which he shows Captain Barton as being in charge of 1/1 3/1 stationed at Kranskop. If anyone has access to this document it could place Smyth.

There is also a news paper report dated 17th January 1879 which reports two companies of the 1st battalion and the mounted contingent moving up to Helpmakaar under Major Bengough, Captains Russell RA, Nourse Henderson and Barton.
No mention of Captain Smyth.

Cheers

Hi Julian .
I'm not home to check but would / did D.M.Smythe rate a mention in Paul Thompson's '' Black Soldiers Of The Queen '' ?
I dont know Terry Sole , but its unfortunate he never left his reasoning in his book , as to why he thought Smythe wasnt at Isandlwana .  
Cheers 90th

springbok
That would indeed be important depending on its actual date pre- or post-Isandhlwana. I don't have this doc.
The newspaper report you quote doesn't mention Capt. Shepstone either. Honestly though, I wouldn't expect it to have mentioned a Captain with an unassigned role.
90th
Thompson doesn't mention him. You write of Terry Sole in the past tense. I take it he's still alive??

Hi Julian.
Sorry about that ! . As far as I know Terry Sole is still with us .  
90th

Julian
Im trying to track the document down.
Your quite right, Shepstone isn't mentioned in the article, but his presence is corroborated many times. The point Im trying to get across is that after LGO 209 of the 28th November 1878, Smyth becomes the invisible man. With the exception of the obituary and one news paper report there is nothing at all that places him in Zulu land. One can argue as you have that there is no evidence placing him else where but that could equally apply to my great great granddad who went for a walk one day and didn't come back.   But as far as Im aware all the officers, except for Barton made statements or discussed the battle at some point, and Im pretty sure at one point Barton did make some comments in a minor way.
The points against do seem to be accumulating though.

Regards

Point understood. All I'm saying is that the last we heard of Smythe was his inclusion on a survivors list in a newspaper. There must have been something that prompted that inclusion. I'm fully aware that he might not have been at Isandhlwana and will be happy either way it goes. The truth is what's important and I want England's Sons to be as accurate as possible.
I'll do some more digging of my own and see what I can come up with.

Hi Julian
Hopefully I shall have a copy of the Crealock Return over the weekend, it is pre iSandlwana and was compiled at Sandrift early January. Chelmsford/Crealock arrived at Helmakaar on the 4th January so any audit by Crealock would have had to be done late December early January. Unfortunatly I don't have a record of when he arrived at Sandspruit/msinga.
Really is an absorbing topic.
One other point, the three battalions of the 1st Regiment where only re distributed/amalgamated when they got to Rorkes Drift so Smythe wouldn't have been an unattached or super numery whilst at Sand Spruit.

Cheers

Springbok
Some years back I spoke to a descendant of Smythe's from a subsidiary line and he was under the impression that DM Smythe had been at Isandhlwana. DM Smythe had one daughter, Barbara, and I don't believe she ever married. The main line of the current family comes from DM's brother (Charles John Smythe the onetime prime minister of Natal) and that family still lives in Natal.
I reckon that's a family a South African could track down with ease to ask a few polite questions about their ancestor.
Anyone up for that job??

I've e-mailed Terry Sole and am waiting for a reply.

Charles John Smythe had several children including:

Rowan whose son David Montrose who had two sons both living in Natal.

Edric Murray whose first son John Murray had Donovan born 1945 living in Natal
and whose second son Athol had a daughter Cynthia Evelyn born 1952 living in Ladysmith (no record of her having married).

That should help you, Watson!

Elementary dear sir.
A branch of the family from his grandfather settled in Natal. The younger David fought at the siege of Ladysmith, Charles was the first South African Victoria Cross winner. Young David by the way was a trooper in the Natal Carbineers.
David Murray himself is really the landed gentry, long line going back, traceable, to the 1600's.
But in all the Peerage articles, Burks, Whos who etc not a mention of any war decorations.

A four pipe problem Im anticipating.

Cheers

That's all true but the branch which is closest to David Murray S. is in Natal and if anyone's going to have the gen on him it'll be them.  They'll know one way or the other.  They might even be in touch with daughter Barbara (whose children could still be alive).
It's pronounced 'Smith', if you didn't already know.

Hi All,
The Murray brothers were students at Glenwood High School, Durban in the '60's and resided in one of the southern Durban suburbs.

regards,

barry

Hi Julian
The Status report from Crealock is a damp squib Im afraid, it only shows the regimental distribution in Natal not the individuals. There are a couple of other leads Im following.

Cheers

Julian
Ok prepared to concede that D M Smythe was at isandlwana.
An essay by Graham Alexander provided the key.
Norris Newman: In Zululand with the British throughout the war of 1879.
23rd January Rorkes Drift.
'Colonel Russell was then sent on, with a mounted escort, in order to see if the road was open to Helpmakaar, and to learn what had been and was done there. During his absence, however, three officers arrived, belonging to the 1st NNC under Major Bengough (part of what had been Colonel Durnfords force), They had ridden from Helpmakaar, and found the roads open and clear of the enemy."
The four surviving officers from the 1st were Nourse, Stafford, Erskine and ? Erskine was injured (Symons accounts for his presence at Helpmakaar) so the third must have been Smythe, he's the only one unaccounted for.

Interesting exercise

Since yesterday I've been e-mailed by a well-known AZW researcher reminding me that I had been introduced to one of Smythe's descendants a few years ago who confirmed DM's presence at Isandhlwana. I did mention this earlier in the thread but because oral tradition is not necessarily regarded as hard evidence it was worth persisting with this to see if any 'paper' evidence survives within the family. As it turns out, springbok has done a brilliant bit of digging himself - something I wasn't aware of - congrats!

LH
Yes but only from me. Julian, Keith Smith, Ian Knight all said he was at isandlwana. I couldn't find anything that actually placed him in Zulu land until the Essay and I checked back with the dates and numbers. It was just a bug I had up my A**s as our American cousins say. So glad its out of the way and the Good David Murray Smythe can RIP.

Cheers

Well, at least that shows he was in Zululand. I'd be surprised if there were any more detail.

I think I have his Isandlwana account, an excerpt really. I'll try and dig it up.

Well, there is a report of an interview with him.

This site has him down a serving with the NNC

https://prabook.com/web/mobile/#!profile/735242

From Hart’s Army List 1890:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Sadly no mention of any engagements.

JY

John
What was the source of the photo? Actually I've just realized it's a painting. Where's the painting?
Julian

Julian,

I know you are addressing the query to the other John, but I know the answer.

The image appears in The Military History of Perthshire, 1899-1902.

I last saw a physical copy of it in Kenneth Griffith’s collection, it is available online in a digital form from the National Library of Scotland.

I was going suggest Methven Castle for a possible location for the painting, but the Smythe family left there in 1921.

Had I known of the connection with the Black Watch, I would have asked at the Museum when I visited it back in September.

JY

Many thanks!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Source Forgotten Heroes Zulu & Basuto Wars including Medal Roll 1877-8-9

Quotation of Captain Smythe, NNC. Published in The Western Advertiser on July 2, 1879.
A SURVIVOR OF ISANDULA.
Captain Smythe, of the Native Contingent, who was at the Battle of Isandula, and who since has escaped has been very ill, thus necessitating his return to England, stated that there could be no doubt, despite his excellent qualities and the general appreciation of him, that Col. Durnford was chiefly responsible for the terrible disaster, seeing that he rode away from the camp with his mounted men, not having made or suggested any defence of the camp. He, too, was of opinion that many of the difficulties in advancing had been brought about by the want of proper transport provisions, and, seeing that the season was now so advanced, he doubted if an end would speedily be put to hostilities. Captain Smythe regrets that we had not had to fight the Zulus first, instead of others of the Kaffir race. These latter could be easily dealt with, and thus, when the difficulty with Cetywayo arose, we thought that we could treat his army in the same way, with the result which was now so apparent to the country.

Perhaps this extract of part of the entry from England's sons 9th ed. p. 59 would help:

68.  Captain David Murray SMYTHE 1/1st Regiment Natal Native Contingent

(A) Brief description in Edinburgh Evening News, Report of an interview, 24th June 1879; (Ai) Daily Telegraph & Courier, 25th June 1879.  
(B) Brief description in The Western Advertiser, 2nd July 1879.
Mentioned as a survivor in The Pall Mall Gazette, 24th June, The Graphic, 28th June, and Times of Natal, 15th August 1879 [acknowledgements to Frederic Bomy]...
Escaped to Helpmekaar...  
Photograph of him as an old man in his obituary, The Dundee Courier, 11th February 1928 and of his portrait in Tullibardine, Marchioness of & Macdonald, Jane C.C., A Military History of Perthshire, 1899-1902, (Glasgow and Edinburgh, 1908), p. 107...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Perthshire Advertiser - Wednesday 16 January 1952

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Perthshire Advertiser - Saturday 04 October 1952

Hi All,
The very last newspaper article states David Murray Smythe and his brother Charles John Smythe fought together in the Zulu War. I have looked through the obvious regiments in the medal roll and have found neither. Looking on other various websites most state David served in The 1st/1st NNC which is agreed on this thread.
David was born 17 March 1850 in Edinburgh and was baptised at Methven in December 1850. He retired 17 Feb 1897. In 1898 he married Katherine Jane Bagot in Westminster London. 1891 census he is a Major in the Militea his address Methven Castle. He dies in a Nursing home and is buried in Methven Parish Cemetery, the Inscription reads David Murray Smythe of Methven 17.11.1850 10.2.1928 Kath Jane 7.1.1859  13.1.1952.
Charles John Smythe born 21 April 1852 and is on the 1861 census for Methven Castle which David is not i assume he was at boarding school. Charles left for South Africa in 1871 tried his hand in the Gold Fields without much luck and returned to the UK in 1873, he returned a year later and leased a farm from his future wifes father 'Strathearn' Lions River nr PMBurg. He married Elizabeth Margaret King 0n 17 Aug 1876. There is no mention of the Zulu War, in 1883 he went into Politics finally becoming Premier and Colonial Secretary of Natal in 1906. He died on 16 May 1918 at 'Strathearn'. I cannot find his burial details. His grandson was Major Quentin Smythe V.C. in WW2.
Rai Keynshamlighthorse.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
South London Observer - Wednesday 02 July 1879

Hi Kate
Nice find I am the Custodian of a Compass and it's case which belonged to D.M.Smythe , as well as his Miniature SAGS Medal .
90th :