Durnford was he capable. 3

But the question, does confirm, that Chelmsford had left Pulleine in command of the camp and Durnford's taking command for whatever reason was really of no relevance. The order was sent to Pulleine for reasons stated by Jim.

Again no orders for Durnford. So here's a question, as Durnford was in command of a colonial unit, would this have affected the command structure, in the eyes of Chelmsford. Was Dunford expected to followed Pulleines orders, under Pulleines command?

For Impi


Durnford being the highest in rank at Isandhlwana , had to take orders of LC for Pulleine on his own account, LC and Pulleine knew that...

Durnford commanded colonial troops, but it was first and foremost an officer of the imperial troops ... Durnford had no orders to receive of Pulleine, LC and Pulleine knew that...

Rascal.

You keep missing things that have been answered before in the topic 'Durnford was he capable'. I have already posted Chelmsford's various orders to Durnford. A quick run down is that Chelmsford wanted Durnford along with Bengough, to support him in an action against the Matyanas. Durnford and Bengough were to form a sort of pincer movement to drive the Matyanas towards Chelmsford, were it was hoped that they could be defeated and forced to surrender. Chelmsford said that he would send further orders to Durnford about this, but he never sent any, so when Durnford was instructed to move up to the camp, he would have expected any further orders to be waiting for him, but there were none, so as far as Durnford was concerned, the planned attack against the Matyanas is under way, and Chelmsford would expect Durnford to carry out his orders, and that was to support him in the attack on the Matyanas. However, on his arrival at the camp Pulleine said to Durnford that he was sorry he had come because he would now take command being the senior officer, but Durnford replied that he would not interfere and that he wasn't staying at the camp. It became obvious to Durnford that Pulleine had done little about the reported zulu activity around the camp area, so he used his initiative (common sense), and sent out his own men to try to find out what was going on, this is when he got the report of a large body of zulu's heading in the direction of Chelmsford. He had to act on this, and went to see where these zulu's were going just in case they were trying to cut Chelmsford off, and that is why he left the camp in a different direction.

That is a good point that Pete makes, and also a good point that 'Jimu makes. Durnford was in command of a seperate column, and had his own orders seprate from Pulleine, and if Chelmsford had wanted Durnford to take command of the camp he should have left orders with Pulleine to that effect, but he didn't, and he also never left any further orders for Durnford with regards to any alterations to the orders regarding the Matyanas, so as far as Durnford was concerned, he was moved up to the camp in readiness to carry out his orders to support Chelmsford and Bengough against the Matyanas.

Like I said in my last post, Chelmsford failed to leave any orders or clear instructions for Pulleine or Durnford, Clery took it upon himself to issue orders to Pulleine, and we only have his word for what those orders were supposed to be. Chelmsford realised that he had made a pigs ear of things, and between them, Chelmsford, Crealock, Clery and others, they stitched Durnford up and made him the scapegoat, he couldn't say anything could he, because he was dead, along with many more brave souls on the field of iSandlwana.

Don't blame Durnford for the mistakes of others, don't let the lies and cover up fool you into believing that it was Durnford's fault. If you must blame someone, then look no further than the arrogant, overconfident, buffoon that started the war without the knowledge of the British government.

For Martin

 Chelmsford said that he would send further orders to Durnford about this, but he never sent any ...Why ?

And why Durnford remained so longtemp in the camp before the attack ?

Since he had his original orders, he would not even have to stop to the camp !

Go through Isandhlwana was the shortest way to reach LC ?

Yes, for LC, Pulleine and Durnford and it is clear that this was Pulleine who was to command in case of attack, because Durnford was not at Isandhlwana to stay, in fact it remained too long to Isandhlwana ...


When Durnford had  left the camp to go to Isandhlwana and why he left so late  his camp ??? ...

However, on his arrival at the camp Pulleine said to Durnford that he was sorry he had come because he would now take command being the senior officer ???

Pulleine  était un peu culloté de  dire celà à Durnford !!! Qui a repeté ce regret de Pulleine ???

Martin, you'll end up making me a Durnfordian !

Good point Pascal. Why did Durnford go to the camp, if was was following prior orders?

I do not think LC is specified Durnford, to go through Isandhlwana!

Then why was Smith Dorrient sent to RD with the order to move to the camp?

He has received the order to do so, anyway everything in Natal near the Buffalo River would inevitably landed in Zululand, if it had not had Isandhlwana !

Go to the 'Durnford was he capable 2' thread, go to the bottom of page 11, Friday May 24th 2013. There you can read the earlier orders from Chelmsford to Durnford, which clearly show that Chelmsford wanted Durnford to support him in the action against the Matyanas. All the orders that Durnford received from Chelmsford run consecutively, the order delivered by Smith-Dorrien also runs consecutively with these other orders, it instructs Durnford to move up to the camp, where, no doubt, Durnford would have expected further orders to be waiting for him in the care of Pulleine, but there were none. Don't forget that Durnford arrived at the camp well ahead of the rest of his column, he would have to wait at the camp for his wagons, etc, to arrive at the camp. During that time, he would visit Pulleine to discuss matters and see if Chelmsford had left any orders for him, he was also informed of all the zulu activity in the area. He could see that Pulleine had done little about this, so he sent out his own men to gather better information, this is when he got the report of zulu's heading in the direction of Chelmsford. He cannot afford to let his general be cut off, outflanked or attacked, so he has to act on this information and try to find out where these zulu's are going.

Pascal I have merged your " Durfords Troop" discussion with " Durnford was he capable" As they are both evolving into the same discussion making it confusing.

For Durnford troops look at ES

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Go to the 'Durnford was he capable 2' thread, go to the bottom of page 11, Friday May 24th 2013. There you can read the earlier orders from Chelmsford to Durnford, which clearly show that Chelmsford wanted Durnford to support him in the action against the Matyanas. All the orders that Durnford received from Chelmsford run consecutively, the order delivered by Smith-Dorrien also runs consecutively with these other orders, it instructs Durnford to move up to the camp, where, no doubt, Durnford would have expected further orders to be waiting for him in the care of Pulleine, but there were none. Don't forget that Durnford arrived at the camp well ahead of the rest of his column, he would have to wait at the camp for his wagons, etc, to arrive at the camp. During that time, he would visit Pulleine to discuss matters and see if Chelmsford had left any orders for him, he was also informed of all the zulu activity in the area. He could see that Pulleine had done little about this, so he sent out his own men to gather better information, this is when he got the report of zulu's heading in the direction of Chelmsford. He cannot afford to let his general be cut off, outflanked or attacked, so he has to act on this information and try to find out where these zulu's are going.

Of course Pascal. One must remember. That any prior orders were valid, only up until The Good Lord Chelmsford, send his last order dated the 22nd Jan 1879. That order was sent bacause the game had changed. Chelmsford left to assist Dartnell. And Dunford was ordered to move to the camp, which makes sense, considering all the stores were there.The Good Lord Chelmsford, was just enhancing the Secuirty of his supplies, after all he was planing on invading Zululand.

The order of the 22nd instructed Durnford to move up to the camp, it was not sent because the 'game had changed', and it did not contain anything to inform Durnford that the 'game had changed'. This order ran consecutively with the earlier orders, and DID NOT make the earlier orders invalid, it was part of them. And also Pascal, one must remember that if the 'game changes' then the 'bloke in charge of the game' must remember to inform the others that the 'game has changed', and issue fresh orders to 'the players' and not leave them in limbo. Chelmsford failed to leave any orders for Pulleine, Clery took it upon himself to do this, and also Chelmsford failed to leave any fresh orders for Durnford with Pulleine informing Durnford that 'the game had changed'. So as far as Durnford was concerned, he had to carry out his orders to support Chelmsford in the attack on the Matyanas, and if Chelmsford wanted him to do anything other than that, then he should have made it clear, and left fresh orders with Pulleine to give to Durnford on his arrival at the camp. I doubt very much that Pulleine and Durnford were both mind readers, so Chelmsford should have made it perfectly clear that 'the game had changed' by leaving fresh orders, but he failed to do this. "Enhancing the security of his supplies"? What rot, Durnford was an independent column commander in command of No 2 column, not a supplies and baggage guard.

When a CO informs an officer in charge of a unit to move. It's called an Order not an Instruction.

For Martin


In conclusion, LC wanted that Durnford come join him, with his column No. 2 while going through the camp! To do what? There was nothing to do in the camp!

More if LC awaiting reinforcements quickly, I do not see why Durnford took infantry and rocket battery with him, infantry and rocket battery was only good for the delayed ...

What troops of the second column asked LC at Durnford ?

for sas1

There always has instructions with a order for informations and precisions ,détails ect...

Correct, but it's called an "Order"

For sas1

You who are an elite commando, do you think that if yourofficer gives you an order for a combat mission, it will also stupefy you with many,many details, it's that instructions!

Look at all the instructions that LC has left to Pulleine to use his troops in case of attack!

sas1.

Offending part corrected.

Rascal.

Yes, as you have read in the earlier orders, Chelmsford wanted Durnford and Bengough to support him in an operation against the Matyanas. The order of the 22nd informed Durnford to move up to the camp, there was nothing in the order to tell Durnford what he was supposed to do when he got there, therefor Durnford would have been expecting to receive further orders waiting for him at the camp in the care of Pulleine, but there were none. Like I said in my earlier post, Durnford was not a mind reader, however, he did have his earlier orders (regarding the Matyanas), so after discussing events with Pulleine and refreshments, he would have moved off from the camp to carry out those orders, that is why he told Pulleine that he was not staying at the camp. If Chelmsford wanted Durnford to do anything else, then he should have left clear orders to that effect, but he didn't.

The rocket battery and it's NNC escort are a bit of a mystery as to why they were attached to Durnford's column. I do have a theory that I have posted before on this thread, I will try to find it and post the page No and date etc, so that you can go to it.

For Martin


Why LC would have given other orders to Durnford ? If simplement he wanted that Durnford join him ,the orders that were given for that ...

Durnford expected to find other orders of LC at Isandhlwana? And why?

Why LC wanted Durnford through Isandhlwana to join him ? It was an obligation?

Well this is what makes Durnford! But he stayed too long at Isandhlana !

The orders had been discussed between Chelmsford and Durnford, and also written out since January 4th, (see bottom of page 11 on this thread). Durnford already knew that Chelmsford wanted him and Bengough to support him in the action against the Matyanas, so the move up to the camp would be in readiness to support Chelmsford in this operation. However, since Dartnell had sent messages to Chelmsford regarding the assumed zulu impi that Dartnell thought he had found, Chelmsford had decided that he would take half of No 3 column and confront what he thought was the main zulu army. What Chelmsford forgot to do was to send further orders to Durnford informing him of any changes to the original orders regarding the Matyanas, and he also forgot to leave any orders with Pulleine to pass on to Durnford informing him of any changes to his original orders, therefor, Durnford only had his original orders, and they were to support Chelmsford in the attack on the Matyanas, the order of the 22nd was for him to move up to the camp, and this would be in readiness for the operation against the Matyanas.

Let me put it this way. You have a note sent to you telling you that in a few hours time you will be required to go to the shop, while your at the shop you are to buy some eggs, bacon, a tin of beans, a loaf of bread, a packet of butter, 20 fags and a box of matches, a few hours later, you receive another note saying 'now go to the shop'.

When you get to the shop, you already know what you want (it is all written in the first note), but if there was anything else that was needed, or if there was a change to the original note, then you would expect that another note would be left for you at the shop so that you would know what was needed, however, there is no fresh note waiting at the shop, so you carry on buying the items that are in the original note.

I hope this explains things to you, and hope that you understand what I mean.

Yeah! LC had only to go shopping itself:D

Hi Rascal.

I have found the rocket battery theory I spoke of, it is on this same thread (Dwhc2). So if you go to page 13 and scroll to the 4th post down, dated Sat May 25th, you will be able to read it. It is only a theory, but I wonder if it is what Durnford had in mind when he asked Pulleine for the loan of two companies?

I cannot see, how a regiment of foot would have helped Durnford crusade. He was a mounted unit. And just how far did he intend to take these two Compaines. 70 Rounds of ammo per man on foot. He would have lost the two Compaines as he did the rocket battery!

Extract from Clery. Evidence court of enquiry wrote:

"I sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn"

If Pulleine was in command of the camp, in the absence of Col: Glyn, would this not add weight to Martins argument regarding Durnford following prior orders. Plus Pulleine had the order in writing, perhaps that's what led to the dispute of who was in command?

This proves that Durnford was just considered passing through the camp...

Not Quite!! Other elimemts need to be taken onto consideration.

Durnford was just considered by passing through the camp by LC ?!

Or Perhaps Durnford was there to help escort the Coloum to him, ie Message sent to Pulleine to Packup camp.

The messenger sent to Pulleine to lift the camp is unfortunately arrived at the moment of the beginning of the zulu attack ...

But Durnford had not been sent to the camp to strengthen the 3rd column, which remains or not at  Isandhlwana, Durnford had its own mission.

But I do not still understand why LC  want Durnford through the camp to join him? There was not therefore a shorter path for Durnford for join LC?

Pascal, you are correct, Durnford was just 'passing through', he had his own mission.

With regard as to why he went to the camp, the simple answer is that he was ordered to, and this would have been to be close by in readiness for the attack on the Matyanas. He would have expected to find fresh orders waiting at the camp if there were any change to his earlier orders, but there were none.

Col Durnford was in command of his own independent No 2 column, he was not an escort for the camp movement, nor was he (as CTSG suggested), a supplies and baggage guard.

As Admin rightly remarked in an earlier post, if Chelmsford had wanted Durnford to take command of the camp, then why did he not send the order to move camp to Durnford rather than Pulleine? The order was sent to Pulleine, so this proves that Chelmsford intended that Pulleine had command of the camp, if Chelmsford had ordered Durnford to take command or reinforce the camp, then Chelmsford would have sent the order to move camp to Durnford not Pulleine.

After the defeat at iSandlwana, Chelmsford realised that he had made a right mess of things with regards to the orders, etc, however, between them, ie; Chelmsford, Crealock, Clery, et al, they concocted a web of deceit and lies, and put the blame on Col Durnford to save Chelmsford's backside.

Martin then please explain why Durnford was ordered to move to Isandlwana.

If as you say he was following prior orders, why not carry those out from the Drift?

Good questions.

And why when he left Isandlwana did he leave his ammuntion waggons there. He would have needed to resupply his men if he intended on assisting Chelmsford. Or are we saying he would have kept sending men back to Isandlwana for supplies.

Dave

When he left his ammo wagons weren't at Isandlwana, they were still on the way.



Cheers

CTSG.

I thought I had explained why above, ie; to move up to the camp, to be close by in readiness for the attack on the Matyanas. There were no further orders left at the camp to inform Durnford of any change to his earlier orders, so to all intents and purposes, he would have to follow his earlier orders to support Chelmsford along with Bengough in the attack on the Matyanas. If Chelmsford wanted Durnford to do anything else other than this, then he should have made things perfectly clear by either sending a galloper with further orders, or by leaving any change to the orders in the care of Pulleine at the camp, but he didn't. If Chelmsford had wanted Durnford to move from RD and go by a different route to support him in his attack on the Matyanas, then he should have made this clear in the order sent via Smith-Dorrien on the 22nd, but again, he didn't.

Chelmsford never even thought to leave orders for Pulleine, Clery did this on his own accord, and then on top of this, Crealock tells lies about the orders to put the blame onto Durnford to save Chelmsford's backside.  

As I said in an earlier post, neither Pulleine nor Durnford were mind readers, Chelmsford should have ensured that he had made his intentions perfectly clear in his orders to both officers, but he didn't.

Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:49 pm   Topic: Durnford was he capable. 2
CTSG.

I thought I had explained why above, ie; to move up to the camp, to be close by in readiness for the attack on the Matyanas. There were no further orders left at the camp to inform Durnford of any change to his earlier orders, so to all intents and purposes, he would have to follow his earlier orders to support Chelmsford along with Bengough in the attack on the Matyanas. There was no mention of Durnford requirement in the last order. It only referred to Bengough

If Chelmsford wanted Durnford to do anything else other than this, then he should have made things perfectly clear by either sending a galloper with further orders, or by leaving any change to the orders in the care of Pulleine at the camp. Pulleines orders would have been binding on Dunford when he took command. If you put the two orders together, you have moved to the camp, defend the camp.

but he didn't. If Chelmsford had wanted Durnford to move from RD and go by a different route to support him in his attack on the Matyanas, then he should have made this clear in the order sent via Smith-Dorrien on the 22nd, but again, he didn't. Correct, which backs up the point he didn't want Durnford to attack the Matyanas.

Chelmsford never even thought to leave orders for Pulleine, Clery did this on his own accord, and then on top of this, Crealock tells lies about the orders to put the blame onto Durnford to save Chelmsford's backside.  The Good Lord Chelmsford ordered Clery to submit orders to Pulliene. Read his account.

As I said in an earlier post, neither Pulleine nor Durnford were mind readers, Chelmsford should have ensured that he had made his intentions perfectly clear in his orders to both officers, but he didn't. He did " Defend the camp" which by the way they both failed.

DrummerBoy 16 wrote:

Dave

When he left his ammo wagons weren't at Isandlwana, they were still on the way. Cheers

DB does it make a difference. Either way if as Martin says he was following prior orders, he would have needed ammuntion supplies. The fact that he left his ammuntion wagons in enermy territory, knowing that LC have left the camp to engage the Zulus, isn't at all surprising, he was a reckless man. And is it not correct, when ammo was needed they didn't know where their wagons had been parked?

CTSG.

You really do try to turn things around don't you.

Do you really believe all that you write I wonder? Even when evidence shows different from your mindset you will not change your opinion that 'Durnford was to blame', because you have closed your mind to anything that proves you are wrong. It is therefor pointless trying to explain things over and over again, only for you and some others with the same mindset, to keep repeating the same old stuff over and over again, just to get the same answers over and over again. You, along with some others on here, should read some good reliable books on the subject and broaden your minds, rather than keep sticking to the old, long since proved wrong and unreliable stuff that you and some others keep quoting as being 'facts'.

You know it makes sense.

Martin it is you who repetitive! With you constant one man crusade.

I'm simply putting answers to your questions. And if you read my views on who was to blame, you will see, I have always maintained the same three people.

John.

When Durnford arrived at the camp, he would have had to wait for the rest of his column to arrive at the camp, he would then have set off from the camp to support Chelmsford. During the time he was waiting for the rest of his column to arrive, he was informed of the many sightings of zulu's around the area. He sends some of his men to try to get a better picture of what is going on, and he posts some men high up on the hill. He then gets a report of a large body of zulu's heading in the direction of Chelmsford, he cannot afford to let his general be outflanked, or cut off, or even attacked, so has got to act on this report. He sets off to find out what the zulu's are up to and where they are going, he cannot afford to wait for his wagons to arrive, he has to try to find out about these zulu's before they can become a threat to Chelmsford. The wagons arrived after Durnford had left, so when he had to fall back to the donga, no one knew where the wagons had been parked, but men were sent back to find them and get ammo.

CTSG.

Yes, it is repetitive, that is because you and others keep going over the same old stuff and asking the same old questions, only to get the same old answers.

A one man crusade???? I think there are a lot more members on here besides me who believe that Durnford was set up and scapegoated by Chelmsford, Crealock, Clery, et al.

You always blame Durnford and Pulleine, you very rarely fault Chelmsford.

Martin. The who's to blame issue has always and always will be the biggest discussion connected to the Anglo Zulu War.

If you think Durnford was setup, I'm happy with that.

You always blame Durnford and Pulleine

I said I blame three people for the diaster at Isandlwana. That's Durnford, Durnford & Durnford.

you very rarely fault Chelmsford

I blame The Good Lord Chelmsford, for not being more selective in his choice of officers.
Durnford was not of the mind set, to be an officer in the British Army during the Zulu War considering where his loyalties really rested. He was a know sympathiser to the native cause.
A man who was having an affair with the daughter of a Bishop, who spread properganda.

What a man does in his personal and private life has got nothing to do with anyone else, and his loyalties were to the crown, he was an imperial officer in Her Majesty's forces. He knew the natives well, and even if he sympathised with them, this did not interfere with his loyalty to the crown. He was an honourable man and a courageous officer, men rallied to him at iSandlwana, and stood with him to the death, in an attempt to keep the horns at bay whilst others escaped the carnage. To sacrifice ones self in order to save others is indeed the mark of a very noble and brave man, and there were many of these brave souls lost that day trying to hold back the horns so that others could escape.

You will never convince me that Durnford was to blame, it was Chelmsford's cock ups that were the cause of all this, and along with Frere, they were the two who caused the deaths of thousands of lives and the suffering of many more, shame on the pair of them, and shame on the likes of Crealock and Clery (amongst others), who knew full well were the blame lay, but scapegoated and blackened the name of a very gallant officer called Durnford.

CTSG .
For one who requires  '' Facts , facts and more facts '' your last two lines of your post reek of foolish inuendo ,
where ,  back in the day the spreading of such unfounded remarks may have landed you in court , Sir !
90th.

90th.

for Martin

Durnford was not an escort for the camp movement, nor was he  has supplies and baggage guard.Martin, those who believe this, are really beside the plaque ...

  Durnford was ordered to move to Isandlwana.Because it was the shortest way to reach LC ,no it's because they could not take his wagons too slow in its maneuver to help LC and he could not leave them in the wilderness!

He leave only Isandhlwana when its wagonss were safe in the camp ...But it was too late, he was caught in the  Zulu nasse...

Martin, this chap wasn't at Isandlwana, although his letter reads as though he were. The hi-lighted section, it's a bit hard to understand, but the rumour must have started somewhere.
But when you consider Durnfords actions that day who else could it refer too. Pulleine. What did he do that was so wrong.

”From No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt.  1

Rorke's Drift.
 19 February 1879

....I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the road for two or three days at a stretch, that we don't get coffee or tea, only dry biscuit; it is an awful place for water. Another thing, we have to write with powder and water and I had to pay fourpence for this sheet of paper and envelope...
We had a very hard fight for about three hours at a place called Isandhlwana. The Zulus attacked our camp and as soon as we saw them coming, we struck the tents and formed square around the ammunition, and we kept them back for three hours. The General was not with us at the time; he was out somewhere and the colonel that was in command of us (as soon as he saw the Zulus retiring) ordered us to advance after them. We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition. However, we killed about 6000 that day. David Davies has been killed"