Durnford was he capable. 3

it was Chelmsford's cock ups that were the cause of all this, and along with Frere and Pulleine and any others ,not Durnford

CTSG .
It may read as if he was there but he basically has no idea really does he ? . He says the tents were struck we know they werent ! , Milne says this when he comes back from watching the camp . As the for ' the Colonel in command shot himself '' please , none of the survovors have ever ,  ever mentioned this happening , I'm afraid it's a case of Chinese Whispers , again. You are the one usually shouting for primary sources and evidence etc etc , why even post this chaps comments .  
90th.

CTSG.

I totally agree with 90th about this 'Thomas' chap, like Crealock, he is another proven liar.

That letter had been posted a least 3 times before, its a proven fake !!



Cheers

Pascal the Rascal.

I see that you are now realising that it was not all Col Durnford's fault, good man Pascal.

The good man it's Durnford or me or both ?

For Martin

Yes I'm a Rascal as those who are Durnfordians!

But seriously speaking I get it took almost two years of readings to change opinions ...

I definitely put this in mind in thinking about the very poor relationship that existed between LC and Durnford, well before the start of the campaign!

I'm sure that playing on the plight of Durnford in the campaign before Isandhlwana!

In all cases it has saved the honor! He stayed behind to try to do everything possible to not abandon the poor infantry, unlike others!

It is certainly not sacrificed to avoid the trouble we would have done it if he had survived! But for the honnor !

He did it because it was a man of honor and a true British officer, of the race of those who do not abandon the poor soldiers in a disaster!

Comrades and honor first!

For the battle itself, he did what he could with very few troops to delay the left horn ...

And first, this is the right wing of the 2/24 which has remote, Durnford was forced to do so for not seeing his left turned by  the left of the Zulu chest, he was to stay online !

As he had nothing to do with the third column, and it was only passing through the camp, it is LC and to a lesser extent Pulleine those responsible for the carnage ...

And it is Pulleine the commander to Isandhlwana, not Durnford, even though he was the highest ranking, he was just passing ...

The battle was not winnable, but unfortunately Pulleine obey 800% tactical instructions left by LC, then it could easily have done better with all the reports it has received in 5 hours!

I have the impresion that LC did not like the individual initiative and that "terrorized" his officers ...

LC should detest Dunford and he is mocked him until the end!

Durnford was loved by his men and loved the natives, but he fought because it was not a renegade!

It's a bit the same kind of men that Custer, who loved his regiment and the Indians, but did his duty above all by fighting ...

The big questions are, why LC wanted Durnford through Isandhlwana? For it take Zulu opposite LC, cuffed?

And from the point of departure of Durnford, there was not a shortest path to Durnford to join LC?

90th wrote:

CTSG .
It may read as if he was there but he basically has no idea really does he ? . He says the tents were struck we know they werent ! , Milne says this when he comes back from watching the camp . As the for ' the Colonel in command shot himself '' please , none of the survovors have ever ,  ever mentioned this happening , I'm afraid it's a case of Chinese Whispers , again. You are the one usually shouting for primary sources and evidence etc etc , why even post this chaps comments .  
90th.

90th read my first sentence.
"Martin, this chap wasn't at Isandlwana, although his letter reads as though he were"

But I again say the rumour started somewhere!

And who started this rumor ?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]



Photo's by forum member 90th

"Clery, ever critical of his superiors, described Glyn as “a guileless, unsuspicious man, very upright and scrupulously truthful, yet a slow, not to say lethargic temperament.” He undoubtedly was contrasting the relaxed unambitious Glyn with the energetic and talented Wood."
 
"Clery and Chelmsford’s Military Secretary, Lieutenant-Colonel John Crealock both lacked diplomacy but possessed vitriolic tongues which further strained relationships between the two camps. Crealock dismissed Glyn by saying, "do not expect anything. (of him) He is a purely regimental officer with no ideas beyond it."

There are no lines to read between, regarding the order Durnford received on the 22nd Jan. 

It was a simple order. Move to the camp. End of!!!

For Martin


Following the orders of LC Prior to Durnford were simply going through the camp:

"But all he Gave instructions for the defense of the camp was to order up Colonel Durnford's strength from Rorke's Drift"

LC actually laughed at Durnford! Given that there were no orders Durnford at Isandhlwana, while there should be some, otherwise why go through the camp for join LC...

"The general gave his word in a decided kind of way,as he was,as he was in the habit of doing to me,that discouraged any suggestion;for he was no one of his staff so there was not confidential intercourse that admits of a suggestion "

This is what I said earlier, LC was ultra-bossy! Very bad way to order!

The Clery Letter posted by Pete on my behalf is from Sonia Clarke's  ' Zululand At War ' , the letter is dated
Dundee , Natal  28April 1879 , for those who may have been interested .
90th.

Well then? They are or the Durnfordians ?

In this case it would not have participated in the battle, the recognition of Raw would not have occurred and Zulu beings can not have attacked that day ...

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Hi all


And if Durnford was present at Isandhlwana, as soon as the arrival of the first reports received by Pulleine, around 7.30 am, There Were changes?


Cheers


PTR

Durnford was well aware of large numbers of Zulus near the camp prior to his arrival at Isandlwana. He was informed by Lt Chard who was on his way back to RD.

Yes and send its NNH in recognition, it was a little dangerous, when we know following.

Cheers

PTR

Pascal MAHE wrote:

In this case it would not have participated in the battle, the recognition of Raw would not have occurred and Zulu beings can not have attacked that day ...

The Zulu army clearly had the Isandlwana camp under observation.  If you are contending that they WOULD not have attacked for some reason, OK. But they certainly COULD have attacked had they decided it was necessary or advantageous.  It was not necessary for Raw to stumble on them.  A lot of other things might have provoked an incident later in the day, or the Zulu might simply have decided the time was ripe for some other reason.

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Yes and send its NNH in recognition, it was a little dangerous, when we know following.

Cheers

PTR

Given the Chelmsford had specifically ordered mounted troops not to abandon the foot sloggers, this was a pretty sad state of affairs. First Durnford trotted off with his cavalry ("NNH")...and then the rump NNC foot escort left the wagons behind when Chard told them there was excitement to be had ahead.

Durnford was embarrassed enough to send somebody back for them when he was apprised of the situation...but as they say in courtroom dramas, "it goes to his state of mind," especially wrt to the utility of the rocket battery (his nominal artillery.)

Hello Mr.

"But they certainly COULD have attacked had they decided it was necessary or advantageous. ."

Yes it's true! Unfortunately I can not oter me the idea of the head - I do not find a solution - despite what some say "that Zulu would not attack the 23".

In fact without the recognition of Raw, he would certainly have attacked in the after - noon when Pulleine and that his troops would be marching in column to join LC.

Indeed, Pulleine received the order to break camp to join LC, at the same moment or the Zulus attacked - things we do not talk enough! .

The disaster would have been even greater? Pulleine have it sent a message to LC and LC would have been too far away to intervene?

Cheers

PTR

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Hello Mr.

"But they certainly COULD have attacked had they decided it was necessary or advantageous. ."

Yes it's true! Unfortunately I can not oter me the idea of the head - I do not find a solution - despite what some say "that Zulu would not attack the 23".

In fact without the recognition of Raw, he would certainly have attacked in the after - noon when Pulleine and that his troops would be marching in column to join LC.

Indeed, Pulleine received the order to break camp to join LC, at the same moment or the Zulus attacked - things we do not talk enough! .

The disaster would have been even greater? Pulleine have it sent a message to LC and LC would have been too far away to intervene?

Cheers

PTR

 Pascal yesterday you said the Zulu King didn't want to fight. Now your saying he would have attacked Pulleine when they marched to LC. Why would he do this if he wanted to talk peace!

Yeah, the Zulu King did not want to fight because he did not want war, but after what had been begun by Frere and LC and he had no choice!

Ulundi wrote:

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Indeed, Pulleine received the order to break camp to join LC, at the same moment or the Zulus attacked - things we do not talk enough! .

The disaster would have been even greater? Pulleine have it sent a message to LC and LC would have been too far away to intervene?PTR

 Pascal yesterday you said the Zulu King didn't want to fight. Now your saying he would have attacked Pulleine when they marched to LC. Why would he do this if he wanted to talk peace!

Pascal -- yes, we do NOT talk enough about the alternate histories that were WORSE outcomes for the British and their allies...only the results that might have mitigated the defeat somewhat more. The orders to move the camp may well have been a death sentence for even more British regulars had Chelmsford doubled back too late.

As to the supposed incongruity of Cetshwayo's wishes...well, his wishes were not those of the majority in Zululand -- despite his being the king -- and he was very far away from that battlefield. In other words, events had spun beyond his control as they were about to do for Chelmsford as well. At a certain point, neither man's intentions mattered any longer. The Zulu nation did not send 25,000 men to their border to negotiate a settlement with invaders...even if their monarch was still wistfully hoping for a last minute miracle. The younger Zulu age regiments were spoiling for a fight and when the time came they could scarcely be held back.

The younger age Zulu regiments were partisans for a fight to the death to Isandhlwana and aussi later to Kambula and Ulundi Because They are ulta-patriot ...

In fact Cetewayo was not Shaka ...

Western Star and Roma Advertiser Monday 12 May 1879, page 4
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Durnford had "broad shoulders" at that time.

Hi all

I sensed that many people will not agree on the answer to this question, which is:

Durnford came out of the camp to join LC or to fight the Zulus who threatened the camp? ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal Dave is right, you could have added this to "Save the camp"  however I'm sure Admin will sort at some stage.


"Captain Nourse, Natal Native Contingent, states : I was commanding the escort to the Rocket Battery, when Colonel Durnford advanced in front of the camp on the 22nd to meet the enemy. Colonel Durnford had gone on with two troops, Mounted Natives. They went too fast, and left us some two miles in the rear. On hearing heavy firing on our left, and learning that the enemy were in that direction, we changed our direction to the left. Before nearly reaching the crest of the hills on the left of the camp, we were attacked on all sides. One rocket was sent off, and the enemy-was on us; the first volley dispersed the mules and the natives, and we retired on to the camp as well as we could. Before we reached the camp it was destroyed."

No Impi , it is precisely the topic "Save the camp" that has evolved into something else, as usual, which is tiring, with the passion for Isandhlwana that stirs so many members of this forum, for decades, I would have liked someone told me on the topic "Save the camp" how LC could have saved the camp ... nobody really answered because nobody really never thought ...

Impi , If you are an honest man and I think that ,you can see that the topic " Why is he gone...?" has nothing to do with the topic "Save the camp"

So to return to the topic " Why is he gone..." after you, Impi, Durnford no longer sought to join LC, but slow the Zulu left horn?

This is possible because if he wanted to find LC, as quickly as possible, he would have left the RB in the camp ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal, could it have been both?

Commander Howse

Join LC and hold the left horn at the same time  

No, may be he went out of the camp to fight the reported 600 Zulus to the north to protect his flank while advancing to LC or preventing Zulus from cutting LC off.

He could have also wanted to chase the 600 Zulus off from the camp, then gone to meet up with LC.


If he went out and was going to stay with the camp, he could have been scouting the reports of Zulu movements and/or screening the camp.


Commander Howse

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Join LC and hold the left horn at the same time   

Pascal,

You continue to invent supposed "questions."  Durnford was very clearly operating under the last orders he had received from Chelmsford's command.  He had not been ordered to defend the camp...and when he arrived there and found no new orders awaiting him, he rode out to defend the LC's rear and flank.  Survivors told this story quite clearly.  If Chelmsford had intended that he defend the camp, then the order he sent to prepare it for moving would have been addressed to Durnford not Pulleine. If Chelmsford was thinking about Durnford at all that day, it was not in the context of defending the camp or he would have made some effort, at some point, to communicate with him.

6pdr You are correct.I even read somewhere that LC ordered him to the camp so he could call upon him at a moments notice to support him in his advance. LC even was thinking about combining # 2 and 3 column and putting Durnford as a Regimental Commander.

LC never thought that the camp was vulnerable so he did not care who was in charge. It was more of a staging area for Durnford.


Commander Howse

Durnford knew there were Zulus about especially to the northeast. That was the reason why he left camp likely to support LC's flank. He did not know it was the entire Zulu Army heading his way/Isandlwana. All Durnford knew was that LC was meeting the Zulu army head on. Durnford knew the Zulu attack formation and probably thought that the Zulus to the northeast was the right horn coming around to attack LC's flank. I think the last report was that 600 Zulus to the northeast were retiring and that is when Durnford shortly left camp.

Commander Howse

But what about the Zulus seen making their way up an behind Isandlwana hill! Would this not have given some indication, that the Zulus were forming up into attack formation.

I think what it was was that they probably believed these Zulus were scouts or a detach infantry, which could have easily been taken care of. This could also be a reason why Durnford left camp to take care of them, remember they thought the main army was in front of LC. Other than that I do not know that goes beyond my knowledge as of now.

Commander Howse

An interesting observation by Pearson! 

Extract only.

Ekowe, February 6, J 879.
DEAR LORD CHELMSFORD,




"   We should be very glad of a newspaper or two giving an account of No. 3 Column. About what number of Zulus did poor Durnford's party kill before they were overpowered and slaughtered ?  Did the two guns fall into the hands of the Zulus ? Did the plucky company of the 2nd Battalion 24th at Rorke's Drift (I suppose it was guarding the Depot) beat off the 2,500 Zulus whom they fought for twelve hours ? How very foolish of poor Durnford's detachment to scatter about so far from the camps. Has any raid been made on Natal ? The men here are very savage at the thoughts of so many of their wounded comrades being butchered, for, of course, as all were found dead, the wounded must have been murdered."
    
 Sincerely and respectfully yours,

(Signed) C. K. PEARSON.

Well, Pearson was besieged at Eshowe at the time of Isandlwana. So, I do not think he could have said anything that was not speculation .  He doesn't know why Durnford left the camp that day.

Commander Howse

Yes Durnford had not beens ordered to defend the camp ... and when to he arrived there ,he found no new orders awaiting him ...

He rode out to defend the LC's rear and flank.   LC was too far to this Durnford "maneuver" is any impact on the situation on the LC's rear and flank.  :[url=http://ww 

I think if he had tried to join LC, he would have taken all of its mounted troops of the NNH and left the RB in the camp available to Pulleine because she could only delay it ...

Yes, Durnford HAD not beens ordered to defend the camp ... But as he stayed too long, he was forced to do ...

If he really wanted to join LC, he would have left earlier with his five troops of NNH.

He would not have sent two of its troops from his NNH in reconaissance in front of the Zulu chest !Pulleine still had enough mounted troops to do ...

Pascal wrote:

Yes, Durnford HAD not beens ordered to defend the camp

Pascal everyone knows what the order stated! But did it state anywhere "Leave the Camp" Durnford obayed the order as far as moving to the camp. What actions he took after that, were off his own back.

Perhaps he did go to protect Chelmsford rear, but he wasn't ordered to. But in doing so, his actions were partly to blame for the disaster.

Commander Howse wrote:

Well, Pearson was besieged at Eshowe at the time of Isandlwana. So, I do not think he could have said anything that was not speculation .  He doesn't know why Durnford left the camp that day.

Commander Howse

Possibly based on information received. The think is though, we know its true!

Mason,

Re-your statement:

Quote :

Well, Pearson was besieged at Eshowe at the time of Isandlwana.

That's not quite right Pearson fought the first battle of the 22nd January 1879 at Nyezane. He would not reach Eshowe until the following day.

'Jimu

Something for the Dunford Partisans. Please note highlighted in Blue!!!!!

By Zulu war Author and Historian.

STAGE FICTION PLAY:ACT 1.
Curtains open to find Chelmsford, his Assisstant Military Secretary John North Crealock, together with Colonel Glyn's Principal Staff Officer, Major Francis Clery, sitting around an improvised table in seclusion and privacy at Rorke's Drift, midday 23 January 1879. An atmosphere of deep gloom prevails.

Chelmsford: " I am deeply concerned to find reports filtering in, that the troops were deployed well forward at Sandula. Some indeed, far out and cut to pieces. I cannot, gentlemen, but think that I should hold myself responsible for not issuing detailed and specific orders to Colonel Pulleine. Never really never entered my mind; no Zulus to be seen for miles around dammit."

CLERY: " But, Sir, I knew how busy you were prior to leaving the camp, so I have to confess that I took it upon myself to issue written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, on your behalf of course, telling him that in any event he was to contract his posts and videttes and act on the defensive. Can't be too cautious now then, can we Sir?"

Chelmsford: " But how on earth, Clery, did you find the time? You were far too busy organising the departure to think of such a detail, and did you keep a copy of the note sent?"

CLERY: Sir, the manual on my book on tactics that I wrote in never far from my thoughts.I realised the significance of such instructions and should have asked your permission. Forgive me, Sir, for not consulting you. I also regret that in my hurry, I scribbled the note on a loose piece of paper and regrettably a copy does not exist, with the original now lost."

CREALOCK: ( Guffaws silently.) "And contrary to your instructions, Sir, I took the liberty of adding to the note that I sent to Colonel Durnford, specific instructions that, on arrival, he must take command of the camp. I have checked, Sir, and he is senior to Colonel Pulleine. It follows that Colonel Durnford would not only have have been handed Major Clery's written instructions issued to Colonel Pulleine, I beg your parden Sir, YOUR instructions, but he would undoubtedly have also assumed command in accordance with my, er, your instructions also."

CLERY: " What on earth was Durnford doing sending the companies to the extremes, only he can answer, but not any more I fear." ( general laughter.)

Chelmsford: "I cannot tell you what a relief it is for me to hear this. As I understand from what both of you have told me, Colonel Durnford appears to have disobeyed the orders you Clery, er, rather I, have issued to him regarding the defence of the camp. Colonel Durnford then took command of the camp in accordance, Crealock, with your-er-my instructions and thereafter displayed total ignorance of basic military warfare. Would this be a fair summary, gentlemen?"

CREALOCK and CLERY. ( In unison) "By jove you've got it Sir, by jove you've got it."

( Atmosphere eases and gloom lifts.)

CREALOCK: " And what's more, Sir, Colonel Durnford does not enjoy the best of popularity. He's not one of us. He's a damned Engineer. Muddling in politics too with that infernal Colenso and, I hear on good authority, meddling with his daughter whilst still married, quite disgraceful."

CLERY: (Guffawing loudly) "That's right Sir, he's not one of us and, to boot, he's more or less regarded as a colonial, having been in the wretched country for five or six years I believe."

Chelmsford: "And what about the actions of Colonel Pulleine?"

CREALOCK and CLERY:(In unison.) " He's one of us, Sir, he's one of us!"

Chelmsford:" Quite quite gentlemen, that's settled then; looks game set and match. Colonel Durnford must be held responsible for the debacle, go about your business, gentlemen, and Clery, see if you can rummage around for a decent bottle of Champagne amongst all this rubble."

(Curtain close to thunderous applause from the anti-Durnford lobby.)



STAGE REALITY PLAY: ACT 2.

Read ZV1 Chapter 8.

Curtains close to thunderous applause from pro-Durnford lobby.

(Tongue in cheek, and apologies to MS.)