Durnford was he capable. 3

impi.

Will you explain to me in your own words what you think the order of the 22nd means, and can you show me where it says that Durnford was ordered up to the camp to bolster the numbers?

LC did not ask Durnford to 'bolster' the numbers, nor were Pulleine's orders binding on Durnford, Pulleine's orders were for Pulleine, Durnford's orders were for Durnford. Durnford did NOT disobey orders, that is the stuff that the anti Durnford lot want you to beleive, and if you still beleive all that tripe after all the proof that has been posted on the forum, then it is you who cannot grasp the facts.

sorry about repro's could'nt risk damage, drooglever! but all is still
open to interpretation and debate, and rightly so!.

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springbok9 wrote:

That comes from a man, barricaded in to a compound surrounded by Zulus and is gleaned from a letter written by Chelmsford that was transmitted by mirrors.
Really impi you don't expect it to be taken seriously??????  

Cheers

I would be very happy, if someone could prove that, that letter and comment within wasn't made by Pearson. It's there in black and white!

Thats it for now! hiya impi    a bit for you to get
your teeth into..Drooglever appears very impartial!.

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Mr M. Cooper wrote:

impi.

Will you explain to me in your own words what you think the order of the 22nd means, and can you show me where it says that Durnford was ordered up to the camp to bolster the numbers?

LC did not ask Durnford to 'bolster' the numbers, nor were Pulleine's orders binding on Durnford, Pulleine's orders were for Pulleine, Durnford's orders were for Durnford. Durnford did NOT disobey orders, that is the stuff that the anti Durnford lot want you to beleive, and if you still beleive all that tripe after all the proof that has been posted on the forum, then it is you who cannot grasp the facts.

Martin the end result was Durnford was requested to go to the camp. The reason was obvious to all.

24th
I don't believe anyone has said that Pearson didn't write that? I don't understand your point.
Cheers

Just to clarify a point, Chelmsford did NOT issue any orders to Pulleine. Clery, a major did.

Cheers

Springbok The Pearson subject was posted in responce to CTSG post, I was pointing him to where he may have read it! Other than that, it has no consequence.

Martin yet again you have taken my post out of context. You have tunnel vision when relating Dunford.

You have so many questions, so here is one for you. Why did Durnford go to Isandlwana on the 22nd Jan. ?

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Martin will say just the same pretty much.

Nice post Les!

This from Smith Dorrient.
At about midnight I was sent for by General Lord Chelmsford and told to take a dispatch back to Rorke's Drift for Colonel Durnford, R.E., who was expected there with reinforcements consisting of native levies. I rode back, 10 miles, arriving at Rorke's Drift just before dawn on the 22nd, and delivered my dispatch. It ought to have been a very jumpy ride, for I was entirely alone and the country was wild and new to me, and the road little better than a track; but pride at being selected to carry an important dispatch and the valour of ignorance (for I only realised next day that the country was infested with hostile Zulus) carried me along without a thought of danger. Colonel Durnford was just moving off with his levies towards Sandspruit (away from Isandhlwana), but on reading the dispatch, which conveyed instructions to move up to reinforce the Isandhlwana camp (as Lord Chelmsford, with the main body of the force, leaving the camp standing, was moving out some miles to the east to attack the Zulu Army), he at once changed the direction of his march."

Move up and reinforce the camp. Which makes sense as LC had took half the colum with him, and bearing in mind the camp at Isandlwana contained the stores for no 3 columns invasion. defend the camp !

Cheers impi..

Move up and reinforce the camp. Which makes sense as LC had took half the colum with him, and bearing in mind the camp at Isandlwana contained the stores for no 3 columns invasion. defend the camp !
...

That last bit being you!...reinforce....defend...but not take command!. very clever impi   
sounds like your getting there..   

Go back over any of my posts on this issue, and you will see, I have never said Durnford was told to take command. I have always maintained he was to reinforce. Which in Military logistic terms would make sense.
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I think Martin gets confused. It was BenGough who was to carryout Prior orders. Not Durnford.

Durnfords quote in the artical you posted I think is quite sinister, considering the events at Isandlwana.

" I'm "Down" because I'm left behind, but we shall see"   

(reinforcements) Extra personnel sent to increase the strength of an army or similar force:
a small force would hold the position until reinforcements could be sent.
Source: Oxford D

I take it back impi...i was just trying to be nice!
why is everybody so para.. its not that important
its only a Zulu war forum, not a competition.. as
i said in another life, i'm not going back when i
can move forward..


" I'm "Down" because I'm left behind, but we shall see"...
think he was just expressing an honest, human emotion.
not sinister..he was'nt clairvoyant.   

Springbok, came across this, have you seen this before.

Lt Raw, “The enemy in small groups retiring before us for some time, drawing us on for four to five miles from the camp where they turned and fell upon us, the whole army showing itself from behind a hill in front where they had evidently been waiting”.

It's the Hill bit that interests me, no mention of " Valley " can you come up with an explanation ? Doe's it fit in with anything that your looking at concerning Zulu movements / Locations. You know the area better than most.

springbok9 wrote:

ymob
I don't recall any messengers from Durnford? I have two from Pulleine, one from Gardner and four from Browne.
  

Bonsoir,

As i have said previoulsy, only speculation by historians and authors.

# "Hill of the Sphinx" de F.W.D. JACKSON
p.49
"A little later a mounted african came down from a hill and reported that heavy firing was going on near Isandlwana. Chelmsford and his staff immediately rode up on to high ground from which the camp could be seen and examined it through field glasses but could see nothing wrong. Some bodies of men were moving about, but all seemed quiet and the tents were plainly visible".3

Note 3 ;Norris-Newman, Crealock, Milne. Also Gosset (narrative quoted in French p.103) according to whom the african was sent by Hamilton-Browne. Only Norris-Newman and Milne mentionned that he was mounted. Edward Durnford assumed that for that reason he must have been one of Colonel Durnford's men.

(...)"He [I.E. Hamilton-Browne] swung off to the left to try and enter the camp from the southern end and sent a third messenger (not named) to inform the General of his movements and the situation.
It's possible that this third messenger was the mounted african already mentionned, since some of the african headman with the Native Contingent may have had horses

# "The Zulu Victory" by Lock and Quantrill
p.215/216
Trooper Symons and some fellow carbineers were bringing in nine prisoners to the new campsite, when they met up with 'some of Colonel Durnford's mounted natives' (this would seem to confirm that Dunrford did in fact send a warning to Chelmsford) who told them that 'fighting wasgoing on'but it was not cler to Symons exactly were. They too heard the sound of gunfire.
Lt Milne, riding down the southern slopes of Magogo with Chelmsford, could see in the distance the various of bodies of troops scattered around the new camp area. All of Chelmsford's entourage had heard the firing but assumed it was the result of local skirmishing. They rode past the lounging troops and just as they were approaching Glyn, they saw a black horseman (most likely from Durnford) galloping and shouting wildly. Fynn hurried forward to meet the man and heard his astounding tidings that: 'The zulus have taken annd demoslished the camp at Sadlwana completely' (note HF Fynn, private M/S KCAL, Durban, Also Natal Witness, January 1913)

#"Blach Soldiers of the Queen" by P.S Thompson
p.52
"A mixed force of mounted colonials, police and soldiers, about forty strong, came down from the camp and joined Durnford's troops at the watercourse.
Durnford called for volunteers to try to break through to give the news of what happened to the General" (note 50). Apparently none came forward'.
Note 50: "Natal Witness, January 19, 1929; Nourse.

Amitiés.

Frédéric

Hi Frederic
The native horseman is generally accepted as the one refered to by Browne. In his Official report he mentions messages carried by Sgnt Turner, Lt Pohl, Captain Develin, and one other, carrier not named. This then is the possible mystery Native Horseman

Cheers

impi
'Springbok The Pearson subject was posted in responce to CTSG post, I was pointing him to where he may have read it! Other than that, it has no consequence. '
Point taken   
Your quite right it does make more sense that Durnford should have been called up to reinforce the camp and I have no doubt whatsoever that Chelmsford meant that to happen. He told Clery to write to Durnford and tell him to do just that. BUT, and that's a deliberate big but, Crealock interfered as to the propriety of a major sending orders to a Colonel. Chelmsford agreed and requested Crealock do just that. Crealock was in the tent next door, eaves dropping and to be kind to the man possibly did not hear the whole conversation. Heres the BUT, he didn't send the message Chelmsford wanted. And that leaves the window wide open for interpretation. Its on that interpretation we have argued for years, Chelmsfords intent as opposed to Durnfords interpretation. What needs to be firmly 'glued to that statement is the fact that when Clery 'issued' instructions to Pulleine ( and he had just been told not to issue instructions to a Colonel ) he made the statement: "You will be in charge of the camp" So Pulleine knew that Durnford was coming and also that Durnford 'would not take control of the camp'. Again Pulleine thought those orders had come from either Glyn or Chelmsford ( Clery is very vague about that ) so they were binding on him.
We do know from various sources that discussions were held regarding who was in charge. tradition allways upholds that those talks would have been about who was the senior and it would have devolved on Durnford. But what if it was the other way around. Pulleine:" Im sorry you have come etc". .......... and possibly carries on that "I have instructions that Im to remain in charge". Hence the reported lengthy discussion culminating in Durnford giving way and telling Pulleine he would be leaving anyway. I know its speculative but if we accept that Clery is being honest in his report then we have to allow for the possibility that Pulleine would have brought that up. Extending that forward could Durnford not have then interpreted that as being a clear message from Chelmsford that he, Durnford was NOT to remain in the camp but carry out earlier orders.
Again its speculative but it does answer a couple of questions, such as why have a discussion, from Durnfords angle that is, on a very obvious seniority issue.

Just thoughts to ponder
Cheers

Littlehand
Heres the original statement from Raw
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This all ties in with Ron and Peters TMFHT, and is the section I fully agree with. The point X that they have identified is the hill I think Raw refers to. Believe it you walk down from the ridge heading towards Mabaso and the Ngwebini valley ( the traditionall spot the impi was found) and you realise just how much sense the theory works. As Ive posted before I don't believe or accept all of that theory but as to the impi location, without a shadow of hesitation.
I will dig out a couple of photos, it where I think R and P fell short when they 'published' a couple more photos from the ridge and moving forward to the North ish would have really tweaked the report.

Cheers

Just out of curiosity, what did Raw do after he was chased back to the camp. Did he stay and help defend or just ride straight through. Didn't he give covering fire to the men crossing the river, which would have meant he left before those crossing.?

impi.

If anyone gets confused it is you and some others that cannot grasp the meaning of ALL of LC's orders to Durnford, you have to take ALL of LC's orders to Durnford in sequence to understand the order of the 22nd. It wasn't just Bengough who was to assist LC in the move against the Matyanas, Bengough was to approach from one direction and Durnford another, they were to form a pincer movement to drive the Matyanas towards LC who would then have them where he wanted. Bengough and Durnford would be attacking them from both flanks while LC attacked them from the front. LC had told Durnford that he would further advise him regarding anything about this, however, the order of the 22nd did NOT include any changes to the previous orders, nor did it say that Durnford was to reinforce, support, or bolster the camp, and it did NOT say that he was to remain at the camp. On his arrival at the camp there were NO further orders waiting for him, so as far as Durnford was concerned, his previous orders were still in force, and they were to support LC along with Bengough in the move against the Matyanas. If LC wanted Durnford to do anything other than support him, then he should have made that perfectly clear by leaving further orders for Durnford with Pulleine, to give to Durnford when he arrived at the camp. You keep insisting that Pulleine's orders were binding on Durnford, they were not, Pulleine's orders were for Pulleine, and Durnford's orders were for Durnford, and Durnford's orders were to support LC not to reinforce Pulleine.

After the defeat at iSandlwana, LC and Crealock devised a web of lies and deceit to put the blame on Durnford by saying he had disobeyed orders, others went along with these lies to shift the blame from LC and dump it on Durnford, and between them they made Durnford the scapegoat. They fooled some at the time (and are still fooling some today), but many could see through all the lies and deceit back then, and now with some good researchers, the truth is very plain to see, however, there are still those amongst us that cannot see the wood for the trees.

The big fault is with LC, he should not have left the camp on his wild goose chase without first making sure that Pulleine had received proper orders, and that if he wanted Durnford to reinforce the camp then he should have made that perfectly clear, he failed on both counts.

John he did stay and fight, he wasn't amongst the earliest fugitives. They went by road. I will post the next two pages of his statement tomorrow.

Cheers

Martin, first three lines of the order. End !

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screengrabber, photoshop.

Ray.

And your point is?

What are the first three lines telling YOU?

Think about it and answer in your own words what the first three lines mean to YOU.

I eagerly await your knowledgeable reply.

I don't see a reason to reply. It's there in black and white!

I read the order, in the context in which it was meant. Reinforce the camp. If the camp hadn't been attacked, then the camp would have moved to LC position. In which case the prior order would have possibly came back into effect.

Trying looking at it as, things changed on the 22nd Jan. fresh orders were distributed.

With all due respect, this means nothing and adds nothing logical to the discussion: " Martin, first three lines of the order. End !
What ever Chelmsford intended to say wasnt said, it left the order wide open to interpretation and needs to viewed in the context of its time. Much as you would hate to admit, there was no specific role attached to the commander of an independent column, In hindsight his decision to leave could very well be adjudged as poor. However show me a single comment or source from any senior rank of the camp structure that says "Colonel Durnford I don't believe you should be leaving the camp." None of the witnesses to the conversations between Pulleine and Durnford mention Pulleine asking or suggesting that he should not leave the camp area.
To all intents and purpose Durnford obeyed his order to the letter, he advanced 12 miles from Rorkes Drift to iSandlwana exactly as requested.
Give me your opinion on this hypothetical situation, on arrival he hears Chelmsford under attack in the distance, he rides of to the rescue and routes the impi becomes a hero. Is he then in trouble for not remaining at the camp??? It would be a brave man that says yes to that, but then what is the difference between that scenario and actual fact, in broad outlines and intent, none at all.

Its about time that the anti Durnford lobbey came forward with some precise detail rather than resurrecting the hoary old tales of 1879 rumour and innuendo.

As I said,' with all due respect.'

Cheers Mate

Springbok wrote:

Chelmsford intended to say wasnt said, it left the order wide open to interpretation

Totally agree. Move to the camp end off. It's Martins interpretation this is miss-guilded.

"It's there in black and white",,,,,,,"Reinforce the camp"   

Where the hell does it say that ?????

You, along with some others on here, are making your own minds up as to what YOU THINK the order means.

Crealock got involved with the orders that LC was saying to Clery, whatever LC might have meant to say to Durnford it was NOT in the order, therefor Durnford only had his previous orders to go off, and those were to support LC, NOT to reinforce the camp.

LC should have made certain that Durnford knew what was expected of him once he arrived at the camp, there were no new orders waiting at the camp, and he told Pulleine that he was not staying at the camp, so does that not say to you that Durnford interpreted the order to move up to the camp so he could give his support to LC in the attack on the Matyanas which LC had previously told him?


24th
"Move to the camp" end off   
what the hell is that supposed to mean?
And who is miss guilded, was she an entrant for miss world some years ago?

I agree with springy, why don't you anti Durnford lot come up with some precise details rather than keep coming up with the proven wrong old tales, rumours and innuendos of the past, you lot just keep grabbing at straws, you can't see beyond the ends of your noses. "with all due respect".

He Had an independent command and independent thinking
that went along with it! speculation is nowhere! all we have
are the known facts! until and unless that changes.. we
cannot( and should not attempt to ) rewrite history!

It's not about independant commard. It's about the last order he received move to the camp. Nothing more after that. The situation speaks for its self. The camp contained the stores. Something worth defending don't you think! Any reasonable person would understand the meaning of that order.

It's not about independant commard. It's about the last order he received move to the camp. Nothing more after that. The situation speaks for its self. The camp contained the stores. Something worth defending don't you think! Any reasonable person would understand the meaning of that order.


Are you for real? he was ordered to move up to the camp! nothing more! nothing less!
if he had expected fresh orders when he got there? there was not! defending the stores!
are you being serious...close to 16,00 were massacred! food or what ever was the last
thing on anybody's mind! they tried and failed to defend the camp and therefore their own
lives...What could be more important than that!. you and a few others are focusing
on What? exactly, spell it out..lay out your thinking so we can follow it!.

To be precise..MARCH!

Impi is not trying to be precise. What he is saying are the reasons for Durnford being ordered to the camp. Fresh orders for Durnford is speculation on your part, there was no need for Durnford to do anything else other than move to the camp. The situation at the camp, wasn't expected although Durnford would have had some idea what was going to happen based on his conversation with Chard.

Martin. Look at the last order posted recently. It's self explanatory, what is it you want explaining.

So come on then Dave, if it is self explanatory, tell us all what you THINK it means.

Well I see it like this!

If I received that order, I would move to the camp, taking the men under my command with me.

Yes Dave, and then what my friend?

Nothing, until I received further orders, and being senior to the current officer in command' his orders to defend the camp would have been binding on me.

   

So enlighten us as to what you would have done.

Try to get into Durnsford mind-set.

1) recently reprimanded by LC with the threat of having his command taking way.

And the way he was feeling!

"I'm "Down" because I'm left behind, but we shall see"