Durnford was he capable. 4

Chard
The substance of Gardner's message is correct. The wording and the so-called source are not. The North East Medals site is NOT a primary source. It is simply A.N.Other's writing - the danger of relying on the web for information.

Wouldn't trust those mate, Aussie cameras you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bound to be wrong.

Julian Whybra wrote:

Chard
The substance of Gardner's message is correct.  The wording and the so-called source are not.  The North East Medals site is NOT a primary source.  It is simply A.N.Other's writing - the danger of relying on the web for information.

Where can one find the correct source. Primary!

Chard
Go back a few posts the version I printed is substantially correct, and it comes from the North East site. Ive just had another look at that site and there is no mention of digging in /entrenchment in the version they have. Not a clue where impi dug it up.

Julian Whybra wrote:

The substance of Gardner's message is correct.

By that standard, Crealock had a very accurate memory too, no

Far to enigmatic for this humble man of Africa.

Chard
Forgive me for quoting from my own work:
29. Captain Alan Coulston GARDNER 14th Hussars, attached on special service to the Staff
No. 3 Column for general staff duties

(A) Statement to the Court of Inquiry, made 26th January 1879 appears in the Blue Books.31
(B) In the Proceedings of the Court of Inquiry, made 27th January 1879 appears in the Blue Books.32
(C) An account and map in the National Archives.33
(D) A letter published in The Dover Express, 28th March 1879.

31 British Parliamentary Papers, op. cit., Enc. 2 in No. 12, p. 101.
32 Ibid., Encl. No. 2 in No. 13, p. 81.
33 WO 33/34, p. 289.

Chard
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Two different versions on the same web site should tell you a lot about it.

Cheers

start the dispatch in such a fashion! it beggars belief!....


sorry about the glitch, think the nets dropping in and out.

Breeding, my dear Xhosa, pure breeding. Cameron has it, Heseltine has it, MacMillan had it. So did Chelmsford. They are/were born with a brass neck.

Don't get me started Julian..Supermac, Tarzan, both had
a bit about them..Cameron er..that's a no! elected without 
a mandate and running scared from the odious little turd
which is Farage..i was watching again last week The British
Empire in colour, and indeed watched with glee as it was
systematically dismantled.. it starts from the Diamond Jub
in 1897 to the early years of the 21st century, and the last
shot was to see a busy city in any part of England..masses
of people passing the camera, every ethnic face you could 
conceive..all in living colour so to speak, when the Empire
was taken away, we made up the commonwealth! and that
is now the make up of this greater than ever country, all
the countries we ruled and raped for labour and mineral
wealth well their descendants are right here right now, is 
that not just the sweetest irony! i don't know why i have not
a racist thought or bone in my body! i'm just very lucky i
guess, i don't waste my life on hating people...Good breeding!
that's such a subjective phrase..    Great series narrated 
by Art Malik.

Xhosa

Note that I didn't say 'good' breeding...just 'breeding'.

And yet, mistakes aside, think what GB gave half the world: parliamentary democracy, freedom from slavery, the rule of law, incredibly improved communications via railways, the list is endless. Also, invariably GB did not 'rule' per se - the inclination was for informal rule where possible, formal rule only when necessary, such that most of Africa remained under local chieftains' rule with a British protectorate. And you know, Britain's Empire in Africa cost this country more than it brought back to the national wealth. While I admit individuals and companies certainly made individual profits out of mining etc, as a nation state GB did not. Have a look at Africa and the Victorians by Robinson and Gallagher - it's a very interesting yet underrated work.

Julian Whybra wrote:

And yet, mistakes aside, think what GB gave half the world:

Reminds me of the "What did the Romans ever do for us?!" routine in THE LIFE OF BRIAN.

Now that was a brilliant movie, didn't it have a Welsh disciple? Must ask Martin.

Julian.

Springy

Joking aside there are many similarities between the benefits of the Roman and British Empires on their subject peoples. They hold up very well in comparison to the French (sorry Pascal and Frederic!), Spanish and Portuguese and look like Paradise compared to the Italian and German.

Julian Whybra wrote:

Joking aside there are many similarities between the benefits of the Roman and British Empires on their subject peoples.  They hold up very well in comparison to the French (sorry Pascal and Frederic!), Spanish and Portuguese and look like Paradise compared to the Italian and German.

Well, one of your brethren is arguing that the French really offered something in the 18th-19th century that the British could barely match: Napoleon.

Andrew Roberts is making quite the case for THE Emperor of modern history. That comes as a bit of a surprise considering he is an Englishman and by the sound of his posh accent quite the Tory sort by way of OxBridge too.

I think it will be in a lot of stockings (metaphorically speaking, because it's HUGE) this Xmas:

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But who had the worst Empire? Reminds me of another Python routine. "Those dirty Belgish bastards!"

I'm with you Julian, like you say, mistakes aside, the Brit's did a lot more good than harm, pity that some others refuse to see it the same way, as we now seem to have become a nation of apologists.

One Brit that outmatched Napoleon was 'The Iron Duke', Sir Arthur Wellesley, The Duke of Wellington.

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

One Brit that outmatched Napoleon was 'The Iron Duke', Sir Arthur Wellesley, The Duke of Wellington.

Nah. The point of Roberts' book...and his promotional tour...is that apart from Waterloo Wellesley wasn't really a patch on Napoleon.  Napoleon was so much more than a soldier.  He was Renaissance man as tireless genius.  He was only a general in his spare time; even so it took nearly the entirety of Europe to run him to ground in favor of the Ancien Regime.  

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

I'm with you Julian, like you say, mistakes aside, the Brit's did a lot more good than harm, pity that some others refuse to see it the same way, as we now seem to have become a nation of apologists.

Stop fooling yourself Mr. Cooper. Your lot have a LOT to apologize for. To pick just one random nation nobody every focuses on, ask a Kenyan. Judging by the latest reports on our CIA the US will probably have MORE to apologize for when all is said and done...but we haven't had the run of things as long. And the Chinese will probably be worst of all -- in the long run. We'll see! That's for future generations of historians to decide...and they will surely be kept busy ferreting the facts.

Well, we Brits used to put up a gallant fight against all who wanted to take over our country, however, it seems that these days all we do is kow tow and let others walk all over us.

This country is crying out for another valiant hearted leader, as it is now just a shadow of its glorious former self. I'm afraid that the British Lion seems to have had its teeth and claws removed and sleeps in the cat basket in the corner of the room slumbering the days away, if only it would roar again like it used to to.

6pdr
I take your point about Napoleon but his of course was a European empire not a world or rather a colonial one.
I think that before we digress into a different discussion it might be remembered that we should not and cannot, judge the mores of the 1800s or early 1900s by the standards of 2014.  You can only judge them by the standards of the time.  It's just not good history.  And by the standards of the time, GB comes out pretty well.  Not perfect I admit.  But in an age when slavery was the norm (1804 and 1834) it took a lot to police the world to root out slavers.  By that token alone, GB deserves some credit.  I haven't noticed any modern-day African or Arab countries apologizing to their peoples for previous (C16 and C17 and C18) rulers' imposition of slavery.
And, anyway, in the age of CIA excesses, ISIS beheadings, al-Qaeda terrorism, INLA's continued bombings and murders, and the Taliban's treatment of women, who are we of 2014 to judge?  Something about 'cast not the mote in another's eye when thou hast a beam in thine own'.

Julian Whybra wrote:

But in an age when slavery was the norm (1804 and 1834) it took a lot to police the world to root out slavers.  By that token alone, GB deserves some credit.  I haven't noticed any modern-day African or Arab countries apologizing to their peoples for previous (C16 and C17 and C18) rulers' imposition of slavery.

Absolutely.  Americans can have no argument with that.  But I DON't think we have to go back to the 18thC or before to find things for which GB could apologize for. Not hardly.  Familiar with Caoline Elkins, IMPERIAL RECKONING?  Heck, even NIALL in denial FERGUSON blurbed it for her...but I sincerely doubt he makes the contents known at cocktail parties.

Quote :

And, anyway, in the age of CIA excesses, ISIS beheadings, al-Qaeda terrorism, INLA's continued bombings and murders, and the Taliban's treatment of women, who are we of 2014 to judge?  Something about 'cast not the mote in another's eye when thou hast a beam in thine own'.

Disagree.  I take your point about writing history from the POV of the moralist. That IS a waste of everybody's time.  But while standards of oppression wax and wane we all know an atrocity when we behold it.  I had a preview of a forthcoming Rick Burns documentary...in which it seemed like the Pilgrims who founded the nation I live in had a lot more in common with ISIS and the Taliban than the vast majority of its modern day inhabitants...including beheadings.  We're just not taught that in school here.  And another serious popular historian, Nathaniel Philbrick, (whose documentation of Puritan behavior during King William's War is amazing) told an utterly American audience I was part of recently that when you look at the reality of the events the led up to our independence, really, our sympathies should be almost entirely with Britain. He said our behavior then had more in common with Afghanis' behavior today than what we consider reasonable now.

There should be more apologizing.  It's good for the soul.  Or do you want to be like the right wing in Japan today and claim all these claims of atrocity during WW2 were made up?

Mistakes!!!..very droll Julian..
i suppose we are all a product of the some parts, which make up the
whole! from the cradle to the grave we are moulded and shaped, our 
thoughts and ideas are swamped from such an early age that the 
unlucky ones are stuck with that burden of tradition and expectations
that could easily cloud and blight their lives..the very fortunate few can
( if intelligence and free thinking is present ) rise above that and make
informed decisions about the world we live in.. a lot of us bemoan the 
current state of the world and would dearly wish that things could go 
back to the way that we per sieved things back in the ' good old days '
unfortunately they were not as good for a vast percentage of innocents
who were caught up in the machinations of an elitist few! yes things have
changed! forever!!! its time we all took responsibility and stop moaning..
its our one and only duty as a citizen's of this mad, twisted, glorious
world that we ensure future generations live free from hunger and fear..
don't fear change, embrace it, and things wont look so bleak to some..

Xhosa
Actually I don't think I used the word 'mistakes'.  I still do not hold with judging the mores of the those in the past by today's standards.
Funnily enough I was reading today of Cromwell's atrocities where he murdered women and children prisoners - it was known as Abingdon's Law for centuries.  Something I had no inkling about - and him a Puritan too.
I don't believe just apologizing is right - something has to be to make amends - a simple apology from Japan would be meaningless but a re-education programme would have been the right thing to do.
Re society sadly I don't things have changed. Those at the top are still at the top and those at the bottom are still there too. It's still a matter of who you know and not what you know.

Julian Whybra wrote:

Funnily enough I was reading today of Cromwell's atrocities where he murdered women and children prisoners - it was known as Abingdon's Law for centuries.  Something I had no inkling about - and him a Puritan too.

It was a rough time alright. I will reiterate my suggestion that any and all who are interested in history here, and may need a refresher on that period, rent a French film called QUEEN MARGOT. Fair warning: Christian internecine strife depicted. It is not dreary at all though. Just the reverse. Grabs you in the opening moments and doesn't let go until the last scene. You'll thank me for the suggestion, I promise!

Bonsior Frederic.

Yes my friend, many thanks for that. I thought I had read it somewhere that he had survived, but could not be sure which book I had read it in.

Cheers.

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Bonsior Frederic.

Yes my friend, many thanks for that. I thought I had read it somewhere that he had survived, but could not be sure which book I had read it in.

Cheers.

Bonsoir Martin,

Happy to help.
Cheers

Frédéric

[quote="Julian Whybra"]Joking aside there are many similarities between the benefits of the Roman and British Empires on their subject peoples.  They hold up very well in comparison to the French (sorry Pascal and Frederic!),

Bonsoir Mister Whybra,

Probably, you are the historian, not me.
But:
The creation of the "Industrial revolution", "the concentration camps" and the "famine potatoes" are not French: The benefit of the British Empire on their subject people?

I.E: Il existe une expression en France: "sortir les cadavres du placard" Wink

Amitiés.

Frédéric:

Frederic,

Against which I will put Haiti and nearly every French colony in the Caribbean. Napoleon undercutting his revolution in the worst possible way!

Plenty of this sort of thing to go around, mind.

- 6pdr

6pdr wrote:

Frederic,

Against which I will put Haiti and nearly every French colony in the Caribbean.  Napoleon undercutting his revolution in the worst possible way!

Plenty of this sort of thing to go around, mind.

- 6pdr

Bonsoir 6 Pdr,
As i said previously, sorry in French ("sortir les cadavres du placard") there is no interest to write a list of "atrocities"on their people subject from France, Great Britain or other country . Sadly the list is always too long....
I have many respect for Julian Whybra (for the man and for the historian).
My post was just a "warning": I have only to try to point out that the "British Empire" was (maybe) better (for the people) than France or other country, but was certainly not "the white dove" (unfortunately).
As you, i have also (unfortunately) "plenty of this sort of thing" in mind on Great Britain, France, Germany ....and USA.
I am not necessary agree with your last opinion, but it 's not the subject of this forum, i am not on this forum to discuss of this sort of subject (there are plenty forums on the web on Napoleon or on the French revolutionary in my native langage),  so i don't want to debate again.
it's my last post on this point.

Please, see no offense.



Cheers / Cordialement.

Frédéric

Still with a AZW connection ish! here's a young scamp
who rose from the rank's.. any one know the film and
his character? clue.. medal ribbon.

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It's weird, but this skirl keeps coming into my head yet I can't quite make out the tune. Hmmm...that's not Jock Sinclair, is it?

  

ymob wrote:

 so i don't want to debate again. it's my last post on this point.

Frédéric,

No problem whatsoever. Had I been able to read the French I wouldn't have posted that anyway...

- 6pdr

springbok9 wrote:

Now that was a brilliant movie, didn't it have a Welsh disciple? Must ask Martin.

Let me know if you hear a Welsh accent...

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Reg: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: Yes.
Stan: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.
Reg: All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?
Xerxes: The aqueduct.
Reg: Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.
Masked Activist: And the sanitation!
Stan: Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to be like.
Reg: All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done...
Matthias: And the roads...
Reg: (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without saying. But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...
Another Masked Activist: Irrigation...
Other Masked Voices: Medicine... Education... Health...
Reg: Yes... all right, fair enough...
Activist Near Front: And the wine...
Omnes: Oh yes! True!
Francis: Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, Reg.
Masked Activist at Back: Public baths!
Stan: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.
Francis: Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place like this.
Reg: All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
Xerxes: Brought peace!
Reg: (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... (scornfully) Peace, yes... shut up!

Xerxes was from Pontypool, his mom used to pull pints at the pub.

springbok9 wrote:

Xerxes was from Pontypool, his mom used to pull pints at the pub.

And valued peace as a result. Is that perhaps why the English had their way so easily with the Welsh?

Xhosa
Apologies, I did use the word 'mistakes'.

Frederic
"Industrial revolution" - a bad thing?
"the concentration camps" = the U.S.
"famine potatoes" - not an invention

6pdr
For me the tragedy is a class one - not a ruler/ruled one. The ordinary people of these isles have been downtrodden since the Conquest. All else has been a diversion - an interesting one - but a diversion.

I think the argument has gone from the merits/demerits of the
Empire to something else and I'm not sure there's a connection.

It has certainly moved away from the original question.  Time to get it back?

Spot on again Julian, the ordinary folk have been used and abused since 'Guillaume Le Batard' and his norse hoards paid us a visit, and it is these sort of folk that are still lording it over us even today.

The ordinary people still get it in the neck and take the brunt of anti British insults by all and sundry, when it should be the ruling classes that get this venom spat at them, not the ordinary folk.

They need the ordinary people to do all the dirty work and fight and die so that they can keep the status quo and keep lording it over us, it is about time the ordinary people woke up and got rid of the norman yoke that has burdened us since 1066.

And yes, let's get back to the topic.

I seem to recall a ditti:

The working class
can kiss my A**S
Ive got the foremans job at last.
When your out of work and on the dole
you can stuff the red flag up your hole.

Ah yes the famous "Im all right jack"

Sums it all up.

Sadly, that too, springy!

6pdr wrote:

ymob wrote:

 so i don't want to debate again. it's my last post on this point.

Frédéric,

No problem whatsoever.  Had I been able to read the French I wouldn't have posted that anyway...

- 6pdr

Bonjour 6 pdr

Sorry, i don't understand your remark about "had i been able to read the French" and 'I wouldn't have post that anyway"...
If you think that I don't want to debate because you are unable to read the French, it is really not the case!.
Being unable to speak or to read French is not a "flaw" !!!

Cheers
Frédéric