Durnford was he capable. 4

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for any with an attention span..

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Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:27 pm

Xhosa
Although I have seen the letters before and indeed I have copies can you tell me what footnote 10 says relating to Bootlegs and Adam - I'd like to know whether these are horses or African servants!

Guest

Hiya..Footnote 10 verbatim.
Unfortunately it is not known what happened to Bootlegs and Adam nor
to Mabuto and old Tom referred to a little later. Parhaps Bootlegs was
Mabuto's nickname-it seems that they must all have been killed. Alfred's
letter and Joseph's letter to his son Kit are in Ginty's box. Col Glynn's
name, mentioned in Joseph's letter to Kit is normally spelt with one ' n '
but we have left it as it appears in the original letter.

Guest

Nigel Green,( Bourne ) Khartoum, Wolseley.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:29 pm

Xhosa
Thanks

Guest

Your the man! have you a pub date for ES's.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:21 pm

Xhosa
England's Sons 8th edition is still available (from me - the RWMuseum seems to be having financial cutbacks so is not buying anything new for the moment [except my Zulu Studies vols 1,2, and when it's ready 3])

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:48 pm

Speaking of 3??????????????????????

Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:30 am

Hi Julian
Do you have a release date for number 3 ? .
Cheers 90th You need to study mo

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:03 am

Spring 2015. Can't be more definite I'm afraid.
All the parts are there; they just need tweaking, polishing and double-checking (I try to be a meticulous proof reader). I won't be hurried over the 'endgame'; I then know that what goes out is right and beyond reproach.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Frederic
"Industrial revolution" - a bad thing?
"the concentration camps" = the U.S.
"famine potatoes" - not an invention

Mister Whybra,

Mister Henderson had written to his father that i have "lost my head"....
Apologies for my harsh answer.
I know you have not bad intention.
Cheers

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:18 pm

Frédéric
Parmi toutes les personnes sur le forum, je accepte volontiers la critique de toi. C'est une honneur.
Tu n'as pas besoin de t'excuser.
Julian

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:44 am

Julian the fact that the RRW museum is cutting back, will that affect your sales outlet on vol3 and hopefully 4 onwards?

Cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:20 am

Springbok
I was told (kindly) that my Studies in the ZW were almost the only things that were selling and they would welcome volume 3 when it's ready.
Hopefully it's only a temporary crisis at the museum.

Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:28 am

Agreed , hopefully things will certainly improve ! You need to study mo

90th

Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02

I read elsewhere that they have a new curator.

Steve

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Julian Whybra wrote:: Springbok
I was told (kindly) that my Studies in the ZW were almost the only things that were selling and they would welcome volume 3 when it's ready.
Hopefully it's only a temporary crisis at the museum.

It's amazing to hear that because I have ordered from them exactly twice...to get your volumes 1 and 2. Both times they took the money and did not send anything without multiple follow on e-mails to specific individuals there whose e-mail address I secured from knowledgeable folks here on the forum. From what I could tell one woman was doing everything including cooking and washing bottles.

Without her address there is no telling how long it would have taken to receive your publications...or whether I ever would.

My third attempt to do business with them (for Jackson's books) suffered from a sort of benign neglect as well, but at least I had not given them any money up front.

Based on my experience I would guess you would get more accidental orders if you sold it through Amazon than you probably get fulfilled intentionally though the museum.

Sorry, but it's the truth...

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:08 pm

6pdr
Whilst not wanting to go into the reason for the recent difficulties at the Museum, I am aware that it now has a new curator since August, and a new admin asst. (in fact there does seem to have been a complete turnover of staff). I gather the previous admin asst. is still helping out for a day or two a week and Martin is also lending a hand here and there. Hopefully the situation has improved in terms of purchasing from its shop. I know of others who've bought my books recently from there and had no problem.
Do keep me posted if the situation recurs.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:03 pm

Julian
Is that the end of Bill and Celia?

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:14 pm

I was informed that Richard Davies has taken over as Curator. He has a wealth of Museum experience, but unfortunately, knows very little on the AZW.
Bill is still a member, of the forum and can be contacted.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:42 pm

Celia is coming in to the museum for a couple of days a week.

Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:11 pm

In all my dealings with the Museum I had no problems , but I havent dealt with them for quite a while , earlier this year possibly ?
Celia always seemed to be the one who took care of my orders as well ! , I'm sure she is sorely missed the days she isnt in attendance ? .
Cheers 90th Merry Christmas

Guest

Hear Hear Gary, what a wonderful Lady the delightful
Ms Green is..she has been a treasure and unsung heroine
for many many years.. others might reflect in this modern
world of superfast service, that there is a more delicate and
might i suggest mildly eccentric way of doing things that is
essentially british..and even endearing.

Yes there is a new curator i also heard some news a couple
of months ago which was strictly confidential and quite
rightly so.. so whats to be done?. i guess between us, the
other place and any other interested parties we can offer our
full support to the Museum going forward.. they sound like
they really need it, and after all none of them are getting any
younger, we need the younger element to step up i think.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Frédéric
Parmi toutes les personnes sur le forum, je accepte volontiers la critique de toi. C'est une honneur.
Tu n'as pas besoin de t'excuser.
Julian

Bonsoir Mister Whybra,
Thank you, for yours kinds words.
I think I suffered Waterloo's syndrom, !!! : Very Happy

Thoughts about historian's profession:
"La noblesse du métier d'écrivain [ historien ] est dans la résistance à l'oppression ; donc au consentement à la solititude".
Albert CAMUS / Le premier homme.

Amitiés.

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:41 pm

ymob wrote:

Julian Whybra wrote:: Frédéric
Parmi toutes les personnes sur le forum, je accepte volontiers la critique de toi. C'est une honneur.
Tu n'as pas besoin de t'excuser.
Julian

Bonsoir Mister Whybra,
Thank you, for yours kinds words.
I think I suffered Waterloo's syndrom, !!! : Very Happy

Thoughts about historian's profession:
"La noblesse du métier d'écrivain [ historien ] est dans la résistance à l'oppression ; donc au consentement à la solititude".
Albert CAMUS / Le premier homme.

Amitiés.

Frédéric

For those who cannot speak French.

JW wrote:: Of all the people on the forum, I willingly accept criticism of you. It is an honor. You do not need to apologize

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:16 am

Xhosa
I agree. Celia was an unsung heroine. She helped track down items for me many times.

Admin
Sorry. I forgot that you like it all to be in English. I should have pm'd Frederic.

Frederic
Isn't Camus good? Years ago I had to read La Peste for my end-of-school exams and was hooked. Pity he died so young. Now, Xhosa, there's a good story and a good storyteller - La peste is based on an outbreak of plague in Oran in the 1940s and the efforts a doctor to contain it - based on fact and turned into fiction.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Xhosa
Frederic
Isn't Camus good? Years ago I had to read La Peste for my end-of-school exams and was hooked. Pity he died so young. Now, Xhosa, there's a good story and a good storyteller - La peste is based on an outbreak of plague in Oran in the 1940s and the efforts a doctor to contain it - based on fact and turned into fiction.

Bonjour Mister Whybra,

For me, you have many things in common with Albert CAMUS... Very Happy

Personally, when I was fifteen, i was "hooked" by "Death is my trade" ("La mort est mon métier" / 1952) by Robert Merle.
It's also a book based on fact and turned into fiction.
It's a novel about the holocaust written from the perspective of a criminel.
This book helps me to understand that it is incomprehensible: To be a Commandant of a estermination's camp during the second world war....
I.E: "La peste", certainly an extraordinary novel; there are goods teachers in GB! Wink

Cheers
Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:24 pm

Frederic
Not too many things in common with Camus, I hope. I want to live to see my grandchildren!!
Re Merle have you read 'Week-end a Zuydcorte' (I think that was the name; I no longer have my copy) - the story of his capture at Dunkerque in 1940. He was interpreter to the BEF and didn't get a place on a boat. It won the Prix Goncourt , my memory is telling me, but I can't be sure.

Guest

Thanks for the heads up on that, a quick search on Abe
tells me i can get a hb 1957 for £0.67..will put it on my
list which at the mo is only three long, i have read books
about the Holocaust, but i read Anotoly Kuznetsov's
Babiyar a very long time ago, it just about scared me to
death, i still have it, but will never read it again. some
things are beyond merely recounting the truth..

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Frederic
Not too many things in common with Camus, I hope. I want to live to see my grandchildren!!
Re Merle have you read 'Week-end a Zuydcorte' (I think that was the name; I no longer have my copy) - the story of his capture at Dunkerque in 1940. He was interpreter to the BEF and didn't get a place on a boat. It won the Prix Goncourt , my memory is telling me, but I can't be sure.

Mister Whybra,

Exactly, "Week-end at Zuydcotte", I have read this booklet when i was young.
There is also a French movie (same title), with the French actor Jean-Paul BELMONDO.
My grandmother lived at Coudekerque-Branche, a working town, near Dunkerque at the time of the battle.
After the battle, she has found British dead soldiers in his garden and one German.
She has droped in his puits the German helmet and his blade (i don't know exactly why...)
(Unfortunately, my cousins have sold an English helmet found also in the garden several years after the event.)
At this time, My grandfather, a railwayman in the civil, a "recalled" in the army fought in Belgique before he was taken prisoner by the Germans.
The French army was so disorganised that he had civilian trousers and bullets of a different calibre for his rifle!!!
Sad time for the British and the French armies...
Cheers

I.E: I also hope you live a long long long time (you haven't wrote (yet) your version of the battle of Isandhlwna!!!! Very Happy

)
I insist, you have similitaries with Albert Camus... Wink

Cheers
Frédéric

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

xhosa2000 wrote:: Thanks for the heads up on that, a quick search on Abe
tells me i can get a hb 1957 for £0.67..will put it on my
list which at the mo is only three long, i have read books
about the Holocaust, but i read Anotoly Kuznetsov's
Babiyar a very long time ago, it just about scared me to
death, i still have it, but will never read it again. some
things are beyond merely recounting the truth..

Bonjour Les,
You can read a critic in English on this book by an anonymous reader.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] metier-1954-by-robert-merle/
Unfortunately, not a hope for the humanity...

Cheers

Frédéric

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Julian Whybra wrote:: Celia is coming in to the museum for a couple of days a week.

Ah, that's good to hear! She was the one who tracked down both my errant orders. Also, it pleases me to picture her as Eva Green. Wink

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

6pdr wrote:

Julian Whybra wrote:: Celia is coming in to the museum for a couple of days a week.

Ah, that's good to hear! She was the one who tracked down both my errant orders. Also, it pleases me to picture her as Eva Green. Wink

But his name was Sweddish and not British...I don't know the prononciation of his name in Sweddish. Very Happy

Maybe mister Whybra Very Happy

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:44 pm

He? Who are you talking about?

Guest

Hello Frederic, many thank's, i will read
that before bedtime.. cheers xhosa

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: He? Who are you talking about?

Eva GREEN, (for me) the daughter of Marlène JAUBERT (his father was Sweddish and not English).
Mister Whybra, you don't like French movies!!!! Very Happy

I am afraid we are Off Topic

Amitiés

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:39 pm

On the contrary I am a big fan and have a collection of French films.
Un homme echappe.
Un coeur en hiver.
Nelly et M. Arnaud.
Monsieur Hire
Jean de Florette et Manon des Sources
Le chateau de ma mere
L'appartement
All the Chabrol films.
It was the context of Eva and Celia Green that threw me.

Guest

Borsalino.. with Jean Paul and Alain Delon... Very Happy

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: On the contrary I am a big fan and have a collection of French films.
Un homme echappe.
Un coeur en hiver.
Nelly et M. Arnaud.
Monsieur Hire
Jean de Florette et Manon des Sources
Le chateau de ma mere
L'appartement
All the Chabrol films.
It was the context of Eva and Celia Green that threw me.

I am a big fan of Marcel Pagnol, in particulary his "souvenirs d'enfance": "La gloire de mon père", "le château de ma mère", "le temps des secrets", "le temps des amours".
I have read them 3 or 4 times each!

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:51 pm

"La gloire de mon père", "le château de ma mère", these two I have. The others I do not know. I'll seek them out.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: "La gloire de mon père", "le château de ma mère", these two I have. The others I do not know. I'll seek them out.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Account from Henderson one of Durnford's own troop commanders.

"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do."

Primary source. Not reading between the lines, not in hindsight. And not through memory loss.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: Account from Henderson one of Durnford's own troop commanders.

"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do."

Primary source. Not reading between the lines, not in hindsight. And not through memory loss.

Bonsoir,
You are right, it's a primary source (letter d'Alfred to his father).

In another post "Col. DURNFORD...Bushman's river pass", you had written:
"Another one of Durnfords military fiasco's in which lives were lost uneccessarily and which resulted in him being publicly reviled for his after action conduct - in which he accused his (poorly led) men of cowardice.

Come on men who will stand by me! They all died. Sounds so familar doesn't it".

George SHESPTONE and Charles RAW are both at Bushman's pass in the the ranks of "the cowards" (your term), the Natal Carbineers.
As you know, they were also with him at Isandhlwana (George at the head of his staff).

If, as you say, DURNFORD was so "lamentable" at Bushman's pass, why they accepted a commission in his troops 5-6 years later?
George SHEPSTONE, the son of Theophilius had no need money.
His brother, "Offy" was at the head of the "Natal Carbineers" in 1879.
Another brother in another colonial troop (Strange Mounted Rifles from memory?).

Personally, i don't know the answer....

Cheers.

Frédéric

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Durnford tried to rally his men by shouting: “WILL NO ONE STAND BY ME THEN?!”

Robert, who replied “I WILL, MAJOR!”, was amongst the five white men who responded to Durnford’s rallying cry and paid for it with his life. Soon a volley of Hlubi fire broke out and the most of the colonial troops under Durnford broke ranks and scrambled to safety down the pass from they had ascended. A second volley from a Hlubi named Jantjie kaSilele killed Robert. Two other Carbineers named trooper Bond and Potterill were shot almost immediately afterward. Two of Durnford’s interpreters, Tlokoas named Katana and Elijah Nkambule were also killed during moments after Robert. Durnford himself was stabbed in the arm but managed to shoot his assailant and escape after the retreating Carbineers. Durnford tried to turn Chieftain around return to the scene of the fighting was stopped by a few other Tlokoas who realised the hopelessness of the situation"

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

I have asked the same question to Springbok during the last summer, i am always waiting his answer... Very Happy

(Frank see no offence, it 's just a little provocation after your "ennoblement" by M.S)
Salute

Cheers

Frédéric

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:06 am

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Back to the point, then I can get back to sleep.

Subject: Durnford was he capable 2 ? Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:05 am

Hi CTSG
I'm not sure if you are wanting to criticise Durnford over his handling of the Bushman's Pass affair , Durnford was basically on a hiding to nothing , Shocked

he had orders which forbade him to open fire or shoot first ! , he had to wait till he was under fire before he was able to defend himself or his men . The blame for Bushman's Pass should be attributed to whoever issued Durnford with that order , Sir Benjamin Pine ?? (not sure who it was ), whoever issued that order to Durnford , is , in my humble opinion , solely responsible for what transpired . Although the '' order giver ' wasnt there , he's certainly to blame , just because someone isn't present , it doesn't mean they can't , or shouldn't be held accountable ! . Sounds familiar doesnt it ????

Cheers 90th Merry Christmas

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable. 4 Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:51 am

Xhosa is nevertheless quite right when he wrote:
"A primary source is not the holy grail, because it
is contemporary does not in itself make it true!"
And this is something I am constantly aware of when dealing with sources.
The source could be mistaken or biased or for whatever reason a lie. It is (cross-)corroboration of more than one primary source, each with a distinct origin, that lends truth.
No doubt, Henderson had his reasons for writing what he did (as did Molife and all the others). The deeper question is why. When that is known, we can then assess the veracity of the statements made.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Julian Whybra wrote:: Xhosa is nevertheless quite right when he wrote:
No doubt, Henderson had his reasons for writing what he did (as did Molife and all the others). The deeper question is why. When that is known, we can then assess the veracity of the statements made.

Bonjour Mister Whybra,

#Three possibilities for me,
-it's the truth (for him);
-afraid to be taken for a coward;
-post traumatic syndrom.
Amitiés.

Frédéric

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