WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyYesterday at 11:35 pm by John Young

» Dr. A. Ralph Busby
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyYesterday at 9:14 am by Julian Whybra

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 22, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra

» Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native Contingent
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra

» Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» H.M.S. Forester
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex

» Samuel Popple
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Nov 13, 2024 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES

» Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now available
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» Grave of Henry Spalding
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves

» John West at Kambula
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15

» Private Frederick Evans 2/24th
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T

» Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthy
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra

» William Jones Comment
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie

» Brother of Lt Young
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg

» Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra

» Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualties
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Absence of Vereker from Snook's Book
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock family
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan

» No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas Newman
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash

» Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's Drift
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan

» Studies in the Zulu War volumes
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Martini Henry carbine IC1 markings
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs

» James Conner 1879 clasp
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny

» 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf

» Frontier Light Horse uniform
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier

» Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24th
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash

» A Bullet Bible
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra

» Brothers Sears
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie

» Zulu War Medal MHS Tamar
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c

» Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyTue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
November 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
In deference to other online platforms discussing the history of the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
Dash
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
SRB1965
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
warrior3
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
John Young
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
Eddie
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
1879graves
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
aussie inkosi
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
Kev T
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_leftthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Barthe missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Bar_right 
New topics
» The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyYesterday at 11:35 pm by John Young

» Dr. A. Ralph Busby
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young

» Samuel Popple
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» John West at Kambula
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyMon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 Missing Cairns?

Go down 
+4
Julian Whybra
ymob
Frank Allewell
John Young
8 posters
AuthorMessage
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3316
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 1:10 pm

The following are posted on behalf of Frank:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 2:25 pm

Some time ago I located the old photo, at the top of the post. That photo showed for the first time a sizable collection of cairns on the western face. Up to this point the only cairns to the west of the mountain were on the fugitives trail, way over to the right on the photo.
I have spent many trips looking for any signs of these cairns but it devolved onto a friend, Ronald Collyer to eventually find them. Photo number 2 shows the location in comparrison to the original photo. Photo 3 shows the actuall cairns well hidden under the acacia and thorn bush.
Photo 4 is a screen grab from Google showing the location of the cairns. The red dot is the actuall location, just to the South of the present road. And again just south of the old track.
While looking for these cairns Ronald found a very large rock in the stream bed, the stream is a tributary of the manzimyama. There is testimony that most of the waggon drivers had problems in negotiating a large rock in the stream bed with only one driver seemingly able to get around it. Untill now its always been assumed that rock was in the bed of the manzimyama. In order to assist in locating the area the current water pump station has been highlighted in Yellow.
Considering the number of cairns found there are obviously a significant number of bodies burried there, possibly as many as 70 - 80. Considering that number the question immediatly arrises that why arent these cairns shown on Alfred Boasts map? It would have been very difficult not to see that amount of bodies due to their proximity to the road. So possibly they werent marked because they had already been well buried, probably by Bromhead, and didnt need his attention. Whoever did build those cairns therefore it had to have been before Boast.
The second question then would be who is buried beneath those cairns? The first guess would be the NNC and loafers that left the battlefield by that road. But I would question if the right horn had indeed reached there so early in the battle? Second possibility would be the mounted Durnford men, but they managed to fight their way through, possibly with some losses but not in that amount. Could those cairns then be hiding the remains of a party of imperial soldiers who managed to fight their way down the slope? There are a couple of references to that possibility.
Interesting speculation and I doubt if we will ever know, its just nice to be able to add another piece to the puzzle, well done to Ronald and friends.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 4:15 pm

Bonjour Frank,
It seems to me that I read somewhere that the Zulus themselves built "stone heaps".
Is it true or false (I.E: in the hope to elimininate an hypothesis)?
Fascinating. How far is the "alleged" Anstey's last stand?
Amitié
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 4:25 pm

Frank
Absolutely brilliant find!
Congrats!
Thoughts:  
Even if Bromhead had buried these men well, surely Boast would still have marked them on his map?
Waggon drivers/voorloopers/etc, or NNC is the most likely option for the bodies therein contained, given that that's where the first rush of fugitives might have met the right horn.  It is not inconceivable that a small party of the 24th might have reached the same spot and be under one of the cairns.
Does this area form part of the battlefield's land?
Can these cairns now be re-built up/maintained/whitewashed and included in the jurisdiction of the Monuments council?

Fred
Anstey was actually found in the rear of the 1/24th Camp on the eastern slope of the nek by Lieut. Armitage (Times 22.4.1879) and buried by Black (Daily Telegraph 18.8.1879 and Anstey Family Papers). The 'alleged', unprovenanced location was simply described as "the Manzamjama".
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 4:43 pm

Bonjour Julian,
It's the reason why I used the term "alleged" last stand about Lt Anstey( alleged location near "the Manzamjama").
Amitié
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 4:48 pm

Why Broad's map does not contain cairns around the kraals described by Witt and others?
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 5:31 pm

Julian
Possibly the timings could be a clue why boast didnt mark them. If the bodies were left insitu and he buried them then surely he would have made note. That makes me think the bodies were completely covered by the time he got there, the cairns would have been very visible from the track when he arrived so possibly he bypassed in order to do the work he was going to get paid for, just a thought.
The area is within the reserve area to the East of the Manzimyama tributary ( I need to try and find if it has a name, hopefully Barry logs in and can advise.)
Im sending an e mail of to Joseph the custodian and trying to get him to attend to the cairns, failing which the local hotels are going to be aproached to help.
Again I think the time table will be everything in trying to figure out the occupants of the cairns. Something to be explored, but think Norse and his opinion on a force that far West. Havent got my books but there was another statement, Mancell?

Fred
There is a tradition of the zulus when the cross a river/stream of placing a stone on a pile.
In terms of distance the 'alleged Anstey' stand is around 5 to 600 metres south.
In terms of the kralls that were defended, I believe the very first cairn on the trail is where the southern krall was.
I was going to send you an e mail, but possibly I can get your brilliant research mind working. Bromhead wrote a report on his activities in burying the dead at iSandlwana and refered to a map he had drawn. I can send you the report description, would you mind looking to see if you can find anything?
Back to top Go down
SRB1965

SRB1965


Posts : 1254
Join date : 2017-05-13
Age : 59
Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 5:42 pm

Hi

Just out of interest, where was Keane's body found in relation to the cairns?

Thanks

simon

Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 6:10 pm

Simon
Look at the map, bottom right is a small building. Thats the 'gamekeepers' hut that was being built when they discovered the button
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 6:28 pm

Frank,
I have a copy of Bromhead's report from the Blue Book.
Unfortunately one of Lt O'Donnel's map (? : I wrote his name from memory)  on the burial of the bodies is missing...
The key is perhaps Pulleine.
You quoted Nourse and Mansel. There are also, for example, testimonies from Zulus (even if they did not quote / of course /  Pulleine).
Thank you for your kind words.
Amitié
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 7:32 pm

Frank
Do you know how many new cairns are there in that position?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 10:03 pm

Julian There can be as many as 7
Fred In Bromheads report he mentions a map is attached, that seems the one that is missing from the blue book.
As you well know my theory on Pulleine.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 10:09 pm

Sorry missed out, we will only know once the bush is cleared. Close examination of the old photo seems to indicate the seven. Ive sent of a couple of e mails so hopefully Amalfa will come to the party, or at least give me permission to raise the money and clear the bush.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 11:06 pm

Frank,
I am sorry for the mention of Pulleine. I have forgotten your theory on Pulleine when I wrote my post about him. Now, I remember your theory and my post was certainly inspired by it!
In Bromhead's report, "Nothing is said about burial's on the Fugitives' track. These may have been down on a third (1) map, on which Lieutenant O' Donnell showed the course of the track , but it appears that this not longer exists" ("Hill of the Sphinx, p. 77).

Note 1:" Two maps prepared by Lieutenant Mainwaring for Bromhead's report are reproduced in Atkinson " ("Hill of the Sphinx, p. 77).
One of them (the well known map) is inserted from memory  in my copy of the Blue Book.
Amitié
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 11:45 pm

From memory, I have a copy of published reports in a Natal newspapers when Lt O'Connell (3/60th Rifles) was  sent to the batttlefield in March 1880 (burial party). I shall take a look.
His report is also published in the Blue book.
Between Bromhead's burial's party and Boast's work there was at least one other Burial's party; I have also in mind a burlal party with a man which belonged to the NMP.Some informations were given by him.
It seems to me that on the forum there is a member with a family link to Lt O'Donnell. It would be interesting to know if he has some documents on the subject.
About 0' Donnell and his map: From my notes (unfortunately without source quoted):"O'DONNELL, HUGH, Captain, was born 9 February 1858, at Jubbulpore, Central Provinces, India, son of John Walter O'Donnell, CE, PWD, and Rosabella O'Donnell. He was educated privately in Germany; at Streatham School, and at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, and began his military career 30 January 1878, as an Ensign in the 1st Battalion 8th King's Regiment In the following year he volunteered for active service in the Zulu War, and joined the 24th Regiment. He received the South African Medal and clasp, and received a letter of thanks from the War Office through the Quartermaster-General from HRH Commanding-in-Chief: "For a sketch made by order of OC detachment of 24th Regiment of the track taken by the fugitives from Isandlwhana, 1879, from which information was gained".
Amitié
Fred
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Apr 23, 2020 8:10 am

Frank
Bloody brilliant. Remarkable.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Apr 23, 2020 9:48 am

Your comments have been passed onto Ronald.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Apr 23, 2020 4:30 pm

Frank
I've just e-mailed you.  The 1982 battlefield plan of cairns has one cairn marked on the spot where you've found seven (no. 77).  I was given this plan by David Jackson (who annotated it).  Let me know if you'd like a copy (it is huge).
Also Boast's Report states that he made 18 cairns on that side of the mountain. On boast's map there are 15 cairns centred around Shepstone's marked grave plus 3 outliers by the track where you have found them, making 18.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu Apr 23, 2020 5:09 pm

Yep those are the figures that dont work, 4 missing.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Apr 24, 2020 10:11 am

On closer examination it is clear that no. 77 is the cairn just to the south of the modern road - the one you believed has disappeared. It is very close to the group you've found. I'll send the map to you anyway just in case.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Apr 24, 2020 10:17 am

Thanks Julian.
Charles Aikenhead, owner of Rorkes Drift Hotel and Lindalani Mazibuko from AMAFA have committed to cleaning the bush away and refurbishing the cairns.
Cheers
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri Apr 24, 2020 10:20 am

FRank
Check your e-mail. I've just e-mailed you.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed Apr 29, 2020 1:44 pm

Amafa inspected the cairns site today and will be attending to the rehabilitation as soon as the lockdown eases.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat May 02, 2020 10:00 am

A merging of history.
On the 13th March 1883 Alfred Boast reported to The Colonial Secretary that his mission to bury the dead at iSandlwana had been completed having buried the dead and built 298 separate cairns.

He described the burials as : “Each grave was dug three feet deep and 18 inches wide. The graves were carefully and sufficiently filled in and their locality marked with a cairn of stones built over each grave with the largest obtainable to the height of not less than 3 feet.”

Boast drew a map/sketch of the grave locations , a rather strange combination of plan and 3D combined.

In 1932 an additional map was draw by Steven Watts entitled iSandlwana Grave Plan, numbering the graves.

Those cairns are now a poignant reminder of the battle standing out from the veld in their coating of whitewash.

Unfortunately, a number of the cairns over time have been destroyed and lost. Currently there are ………… recognizable. However, a process is now underway to identify and mark as many as possible of those long-lost locations.

Old photos, commentaries, statements and photos are being used to identify locations spread over the entire seat of the battle and its aftermath, the Fugitives trail and the alternate escape routes.

With the discover mentioned above locating an as yet unknown number of cairns focus has been concentrated on the area of the old road from the Bashe to the saddle.
Alfred Bost identified graves on the West of the Manzimyama tributary, higher up the slope than the stream itself, and a single isolated grave on the western bank of the stream, to the north of the road.

On the Municipal grave map from 1932 those graves were not identified my Watts and therefore not numbered.

However, a single cairn was identified and numbered by Watts but in a different location, south of the road and close to the tributary higher up the slope.

The cairn built by Boast is clearly marked on his map and its contents have been the subject of speculation for 140 years. Authors and historians in the past have mentioned a road party working on the road, that has been largely discredited, also Chards Engineers, again proved wrong by Chard himself.

In an essay Ian Knight has attributed the cairn as a memorial to one Bertie Hughes, drawing on a mention from WJS Morris and William Smyth. According to the essay Hughes died while trying to cross the Manzimyama whilst in flood. This incident occurred however in 1889 so clearly the cairn predated this issue.


Boast did not mention the cairn higher up the slope so the assumption would be that it was constructed after 1883. Watts showed it on his survey of 1932, but didn’t show the cairn west of the stream. Watts was I believe constrained in his brief to the so-called cemetery area, east of the Manzimyama.

It is therefore a possibility that there were in fact two separate cairns constructed, the lower for fugitives caught by the right wing and the upper as a monument to the unfortunate Bertie Hughes. Again, there exists therefore the possibility that over the years history has merged the two cairns character into one where the lower cairn has adopted the mystique of the upper.

Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat May 02, 2020 5:23 pm

Frank
A couple of points to note. slips of the finger - it's Steven Watt (not Watts) and his map dates from 1982 (not 1932).
The letters re Bertie Hughes mention only that a cross was placed by the river on the east bank; there was nothing about building a cairn and placing a cross on it; there was just the cross placed (presumably on an existing cairn). Hughes himself was buried in St. Vincent's precluding the necessity of any cairn.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat May 02, 2020 9:50 pm

William Smyth
I am responsible for the sacraments at St. Augustine’s and the outstations. There are ten out-stations where regular Sunday services are held. One week my horse had to carry me 150 miles. The new road through the drift was deep in mud. I found a grave with an iron cross, in memory of Bertie Hughes.

As he was buried at St Vincents there would not be a grave at the Manzimyama, so I assume he meant a cairn as such.
The 1932 was a slip of the finger, with apologies.
I dont recall a mention of the eastern bank?
Boast only built one and that was on the western bank. The other mentioned by Watt is on the east as I have mentioned and assumed it was constructed for the 'memorial cross' that was at some point moved to the west bank.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySun May 03, 2020 9:07 am

Hi Frank
Smyth
The phrase 'a grave with an iron cross, in memory of Bertie Hughes' is written strangely. It's not 'Bertie Hughes's grave with a cross'. It's a question of semantics, I know, but the 'cross' was in Bertie's memory and the 'grave' could have been someone else's. Smyth would also have been well aware the Hughes was buried in St. Vincent's as the first European to be buried there. I suggest that he used the word 'grave' specifically knowing full well it was one, just not Bertie's.
Parkins & Lewis
Parkins wrote that Morris & Hughes were riding home towards St. Vincent's trying to find a place to ford the Manzimnyama and Morris saw Bertie's riderless horse "nearly across on the opposite side". (Letter written on 15.1.1889 describing the event itself on 10.1.1889).
Lewis, coming from the same direction, wrote "there is a cross on the other side [i.e. the eastern bank] where the horse got out." (Letter written on 25.8.1891 describing his trip on 16.8.1891).
Put the two together and you have a cairn on the eastern bank. Lewis's letter is particularly interesting as he mentions another death at the same place in August 1891.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyMon May 04, 2020 7:02 am

Morning Julian
Smyth
I really think that sentence is a question of interpretation, and your right he would have known Bertie was buried at St Vincents. He does make that very clear when he says ir was in Memory of him. Even today the cairns are continually refered to as graves and the whole isandlwana area is known as a Grave yard. Steven Watt refers to to it on his plan as Im sure does Boast so it would be hardly suprising if Smyth did the same.
As to who the 'grave' belongs to.
Let me reiterate my point Boast built a 'grave' on the west bank of the Manzimyama, some 40 to 50 metres North of the track, There is no singular grave indicated by him to the East of the stream.
However a cairn was erected at a later date higher up the road ten metres South of the track and below the tributry. That cairn is therefore to the EAST of the main Manzimyama stream. My contention is that this eastern cairn is one quite possible erected to the memory of Bertie ( Or even a later fatality) your account from Parkins and Lewis tends to confirm that rather than prove the opposite, in positions the memorial cairn east of the manzimyama. If indeed they had been refering to the cairn on the same bank as their approach it would have been mentionied that it was on the side of the hill some 50 metres to their north.
I do have proof of the positioning of that cairn, its been badly damaged and is in a difficult location but it is highly visible along the old and new roads, unfortunatly while still held as an unwilling prisoner I cannot get to the battlefield neither can my friends in PMB to take photos. But it is there.
My stance remains Indomitably solid Im afraid. Salute
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3316
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyTue May 12, 2020 8:45 pm

Updated photograph from Frank.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed May 13, 2020 6:24 am

Cairn Clearing in progress. Charles from the Rorkes Drift Hotel assisted by Pat Rungen and the crew from iSandlwana Lodge. Great bunch of guys.
Back to top Go down
1879graves

1879graves


Posts : 3387
Join date : 2009-03-03
Location : Devon

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyWed May 13, 2020 9:56 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

From Isandlwana Lodge Facebook page.
Back to top Go down
http://zuluwar1879.tribalpages.com
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu May 14, 2020 9:25 am

For those members trying to put this site into context.
Between the Manzimyama stream, at the bottom of the western slope leading to iSandlwana, a tributory stream runs of the ridge down the slope and then cuts across the slope at a diagonal before straightening again and joining the main stream.
The earliest fugitives attempted to escape via the traders track to Rorkes Drift. That track runs from the saddle on a diagonal course across the west face of the hill and then straightens down the slope across this tributory and over the Manzimyama.
The right horn of the impi aproached from the north down the ridge and cut the road. Exactly where is open to interpretation, history tells us that occured down the manzimyama valley, I believe that they took a much easier path down the valley created by the tributory, higher up the slope and closer to iSandlwana. (Ive never quite figured why they would take the longer Manzimyama route and end up right at the bottom of the hill instead of this much easier path). These rediscovered cairns are marked on the Alfred Boast map of 1883 but not on the later 1982 survey and are on the western side of the tributory, closer to the manzimyama. So there is no doubt at all that they were graves of men fleeing the battle, exactly who they were we will probably never know, unless any artifacts turn up whilst the area is being cleared and rebuilt.
Regards
Back to top Go down
Danny1960

Danny1960


Posts : 62
Join date : 2020-01-13
Age : 64
Location : Khon Kaen In Thailand

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu May 14, 2020 3:16 pm

We're the men buried exactly where they were found, or were groups of the deceased buried in a general area, as in one body was found and then several others may have been added to the burial spot?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyThu May 14, 2020 3:45 pm

Hi Danny. Boast collected bodies into groups of 4 ish and buried them then created the cairns. There seems to be around 6 cairns in that area, we wont know exactly untill final clearing but they are acccording to old photos considerably bigger than normal so highly possible that they contained more than the norm. Speculative I know.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 8:31 am

The whole area has now been cleared of bush, and the cairns and ruins have been exposed. Big thanks have to go out to Charles at RD Hotel, Pat Rundgen tour guide and Shane from iSandlwana Lodge. They have all been brilliant.
The next stage is to have the cairns refurbished and white washed and then hopefully after lock down is finished to hold a blessing on site.
Sanral have been requested to provide an iSandlwana Battlefield sign placed on the Manzimyama, this effectivly extends the battlefield by 2 kilometre.
Photos will be posted of the cleared area.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3316
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 10:19 am

And as if by magic:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
Online
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 10:25 am

Thanks John appreciated.
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3316
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 10:47 am

No problem Frank, just happy to be of assistance.

JY
Back to top Go down
Online
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 1:41 pm

So Frank, judging by what's been exposed and by comparison with the early photo taken from this location how many cairns do you think you've found at this spot?
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 1:59 pm

Julian. Charles is going to explore over the weekend at this stage it looks like 6 but there seems to be a lot of damage, the alloe growing through hasnt exactly helped. Early next week we should have a better idea. We are trying to get a drone set up to give us a full aerial picture. Will take some time to get a complete picture, just a pity with this bloody lockdown I would love to be there for a few days but thats way way into the future. Everything else seems to be coming into place though.
Back to top Go down
Julian Whybra




Posts : 4187
Join date : 2011-09-12
Location : Billericay, Essex

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 2:02 pm

Whatever the outcome, with your presence or without, you've done a grand job.
Back to top Go down
ymob

ymob


Posts : 2268
Join date : 2010-10-22
Location : France

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 4:20 pm

"Everything else seems to be coming into place though"...
Back to top Go down
http://frbomy@hotmail.fr
Danny1960

Danny1960


Posts : 62
Join date : 2020-01-13
Age : 64
Location : Khon Kaen In Thailand

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptyFri May 15, 2020 10:12 pm

Well done to all those involved in finding and reinstating the cairns, it must be a thankless task in the heat, I'm sure that others will join me in sending a heartfelt thank you fir your hard work and dedication in a difficult environment and difficult times....'thank you'
Back to top Go down
WeekendWarrior

WeekendWarrior


Posts : 272
Join date : 2017-07-21
Location : San Diego, CA

the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Missing Cairns?   the missing cairns - Missing Cairns? EmptySat Jun 06, 2020 4:04 am

Awesome work
Back to top Go down
 
Missing Cairns?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» The Battle of Isandlwana
» 24th Men Killed at Isandlwana near a kraal
» Google Earth - Geolocating the Cairns and Features of Isandlwana

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: ZULU WAR BATTLES-
Jump to: