Latest topics | » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 23, 2024 9:14 am by Julian Whybra » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Fri Nov 22, 2024 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native ContingentSat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex » Samuel PoppleWed Nov 13, 2024 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » The Passing of Lady Ellen Baker.Sat Nov 23, 2024 11:35 pm by John Young » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young » Samuel PoppleTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » John West at KambulaMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15 » How to find medal entitlement CokerFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Mon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965 |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Isandlwana, Last Stands | |
|
+20ymob Julian Whybra aussie inkosi 6pdr John Young John sas1 old historian2 rusteze 90th Chelmsfordthescapegoat littlehand Chard1879 lamplight52 Dave 24th Ray63 barry Frank Allewell impi 24 posters | |
Author | Message |
---|
Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 12:31 pm | |
| Always a debatable issue Sime, isnt everything on this bloody battle. Having spent the odd minute or so there let me venture an opinion/idea. The 1/24th rear line of tents was probably a hundred metre or so below the slope of the kopie base. They had to be because in between were the mess tents and the battalion wagons, that would include Pullens place of business. He would I assume have been rather busy dishing out ammunition, even though he seems to have had a rather able assistant, (Ammo bas, ammo bas). Ive tried to figure out on a few ( hundred ) occasions why on earth a Quarter Master would abandon the very core of his existence. His supplies! The place of Durnfords stand/death again is a whole subject on its own to idle away the odd lifetime or so. Traditionally he fought to his last below Mahlabamkosi fighting of the left horn, if that were true then why was his body found so far away? There seems little doubt these days as to the general area, within a few metre, where Durnford died and it wasnt right below the koppie. Just below the traditional Durnford death spot is the area that Grainger was fighting with a group of 24th men. He was called back into line by Scott ( to my mind the bloke who led the rearguard) All that took place to the north and probably slightly below the rear line of tents, next to the track. So heres the niggly bit, IF Pullen was heading of to the front of the kopie he would have been going sideways, southerly direction, not north or north east to join Durnford. I trust Brickhill quite a lot, it takes guts to relate the story of him abandoning Gamble in the stream bed, so theres no real reason to doubt his word. So as an interpretation, Brickhill would probably have met Pullen fairly close to his 'office', Pullen moves South grabbing all and sundry on the way, Brickhill for G-D knows what reason heads into the jaws of death to have a word with Du Boise (Due East) and Durnford is about to join up with Scott (over to the North) after having been across to the other side of the track looking for Pulleine ( He was witnessed over there) Does that make any sort of sense? Lock downs not been to bad really gave me the chance to considerably reduce the size of the job-jar. We had had a couple of scares, daughter and grandson both had the virus, but all are now recovered and we are out of isolation so next week its of to iSandlwana for the commemeration and for me to go and do some restoration work on my cairns. One thing though, have a word with your bosses, my Wagon Wheels ( Been eating them for close to 70 years) have undergone a shrinking exersize and a price escalation, really not charmed about that one.
Sorry one last thought, those squaddie tents are damned high and wide the 1/24th would have had around 50 or so, thats a huge chunk of blockage to the site lines. Brickhill must have been bloody nuts.
Cheers mate and enjoy your latest lock down. I know JY always enjoys it, gives him chance to do some gardening. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3316 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:45 pm | |
| Following on from Frank’s comment, this is tented encampment of the 1st/24th photographed at Wynberg, near Cape Town in January 1875. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]1st/24th’s Camp, Wynberg, 1875. (John Young Collection.) Obviously this is the camp of the complete battalion, the 1st/24th’s lines at iSandlwana were smaller, due to the absent companies. JY |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:07 pm | |
| Hi John My point being that there could be a 10 000 strong impi charging down on you from the Claremont side and you wouldnt see them. iSandlwana would not have been much different from the south/left horn. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3316 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:19 pm | |
| Frank,
Not an issue, just trying to convey the length & width of 1st/24th’s camp lines.
As to the gardening - the gardener has just done the pruning and scarified the lawn. Worth every penny!
JY |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:52 pm | |
| Frank I think your summary just about sums up the Pullen situation quite accurately. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:10 pm | |
| John would you agree that at iSandlwana the tents would have been a lot closer? Julian Im busy encapsulation the Western Slope into a small essay, I want to quote from one of your articles but I will e mail you. |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3316 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:42 pm | |
| Frank,
Yes indeed, as per the engraving based on Fowler’s sketch.
JY |
| | | Herbie
Posts : 118 Join date : 2017-11-16 Age : 59 Location : Epsom, Surrey
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:40 am | |
| John’s photo has by my reckoning 8 rows of 14 tents each in the company lines. A bell tent held between 8 to 16 men I believe so perhaps 3 tents per full strength section and another 1 or 2 for the company officers in 1875 would fit that I guess although by 1879 with reduced battalion strength i recon they would have only needed maybe 9 per company at most. Battalion headquarters on top of this of course but I assume there are a few more tents for the HQ staff near the Large HQ tent? Phil |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 4:20 am | |
| Herbie 1/24th had approx 415 complement. The tents accomadated 6 men and equipment so very close to 70 tents plus additional officers tents, mess tents, regimental HQ, farriers, cook house etc. Probably 75 to 80 tents. Each tent was 14' diameter with the guy ropes extending the required diameter to 20' or 6meter, the height at the pole was 12' or approx 3.6m. Hope that helps. Frank |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1254 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:26 am | |
| Ah... the age old debate, that even the most sagest of students (J's Young and Whybra) can't answer in confidence.....have Wagonwheels shrunk?......do things appear bigger in the memory (or mirrors)?.....Is it just that Franks hands have got bigger since when he was 5 years old?.....
Maybe we will never know......
Cheers
Sime
PS Wagonwheels are made by Burtons......we only make the cheap (sorry, 'everyday' I believe its called) stuff.....if your cows are looking the wrong way on your Malted Milk its my fault (Oh yes the cows can be left or right facing....not a lot of people know that).....Though - that said Burtons were interested in buying us a couple of years ago...the women on Night Shift put them off though...... |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1254 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:12 am | |
| [quote="Frank Allewell Sorry one last thought, those squaddie tents are damned high and wide the 1/24th would have had around 50 or so, thats a huge chunk of blockage to the site lines. Brickhill must have been bloody nuts. [/quote]
Maybe with Brickies eyesight problems and the fact that the tents were in the way.....perhaps he thought "Oh I wonder what's going on there? I'll go and have a nosey"
Would the slope of the ground helped with visibility over the tents, until the Zulus were in the dead ground (obscured by the tents)?
|
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:14 am | |
| Ah Sime but we do know! Having a 7 year old grandson I gave him a waggon wheel and took a photo as he had his first bite - and his last, didnt like it and chucked it away, brat!- anyway I compared that photo with one taken of me in Blackpool at the same age. Mouth versus waggon wheel ( dont go there Sime) size, they have shrunk. So definite scientific proof. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:18 am | |
| Sime at a distance yes the slope would help but not at closer range. Classic example of that was Chard not seeing any officers or the regiment on parade on the morning of the 22nd. Wasnt there another similar comment, Brickhill, saying he couldnt see the front line? |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:42 am | |
| There is another mention of a group still fighting on the extreme right of the camp (with no officer being named) in a survivor's account (i.e. in addition to Brickhill). I think he wrote that he considered joining them but didn't think it would be much use and so rode on. David Jackson always believed that this could only have referred to Pullen's group. For reasons I won't bore you with, all my notes and my entire study are inaccessible at the moment, so others will have to remember who the survivor was. |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1254 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:36 am | |
| Apparently, in Australia - Wagon Wheels are 14mm bigger than in the UK (@88mm) but 4mm thinner (which is why Gary/90th can only fit two in his mouth at one time......) - supposedly still the old UK spec.
Damn tricky thing is biscuit baking......y'all should show them more respect when dipping them in your tea.....we used to have a biscuit knocker whose job it was to break the outside biscuits in a pack but that's done my a machine now.....progess I spose.... |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana , Last stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:37 am | |
| Sime I could probably fit 3 in my gob based on their present day size , not even 1 back in the / their day ! , last time I bought a wagon wheel , or the similar based product... I thought I instantly spotted a reduction in size by 30 % , and 20 % in their thickness ! . You biscuit people are all the same ...always driving me crackers ! . 90th |
| | | SRB1965
Posts : 1254 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:25 am | |
| Oh crumbs.......I wish Frank hadn't mentioned it now...... Cheers Sime ps what is a 'biscuit person'? - a bit like a Gingerbread Man?.....Was Garibaldi a biscuit person?..... |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3316 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:35 am | |
| Sime, Odd you should mention Garibaldi, as his name came up in conversation with a mate in KZN. Giuseppe Garibaldi was born in Nice, part of France since the 2nd Empire, but previously claimed by two pre-unification Italian kingdoms. So officially Giuseppe was a biscuit man from a biscuit city. Doesn’t that take the biscuit? On the other debate I concur with the fundi from the Mother City - they have shrunk! Totally off topic JY |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:42 am | |
| I know Im going to be in trouble over this: Did you hear about the fight in the biscuit tin? The bandit hit the penguin over the head with a club, tied him to a wagon wheel with a blue ribbon, and made his breakaway in a taxi, escaping along the rocky road to mars, the milky way, and the Galaxy. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:52 am | |
| And, while we're on the Topic, no doubt chased by a Lion Bar none. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:04 am | |
| Friend of mine got a job in a biscuit factory. He kneaded the dough. |
| | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4187 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:48 am | |
| You loy have inspired me to relive childhood memories. I went out and bought a waggon wheel pack this morning. Congrats. P.S. They are definitely smaller. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| | | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:37 am | |
| |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana , Last stands Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:54 am | |
| |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3316 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:28 pm | |
| Frank, I dare not mention Cadbury’s long defunct Skippy just in case Smoko thinks it was made from his national hero. Still off topic, I know. |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana , Last stands Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:38 pm | |
| Hi JY Skippy ?? , don't you mean the Caramello Bear ?? . Can't say I've ever seen a chocolate skippy , unless it was an English thing ? 90th |
| | | John Young
Posts : 3316 Join date : 2013-09-08 Age : 68 Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!
| Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:13 pm | |
| Gary,
Check your e-mail. By-the-way Chips is on later in The Desert Rats.
JY |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Isandlwana , Last stands Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:21 pm | |
| Have done and replied JY . 12.20 am , sorry but no chips tonight , I think I have it on my Chips dvd ? 90th |
| | | | Isandlwana, Last Stands | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |