Rorke's Drift: Corp. Key, Ptes. John Jones and Lynch

A New Year's Conundrum for you all.
Four 24th men - Lewis, John Jones, Key and Lynch - appear ONLY on Bourne’s roll (1910) but were subsequently (1910 x 1934) removed by him.
As established on another thread, 25B/963 Pte. David Lewis’s presence at RD can be confirmed by Bourne’s naming him as a defender in two separate accounts (The Northern Mail, 17th May 1934; The Listener, 30th December 1936).
However, 25B/970 Pte. John Jones of Caedraw, Letter to his mother, Rorke’s Drift 28th January 1879, The Merthyr Express, 29th March 1879, wrote that he was with Chelmsford’s Reconnaissance: “The enemy came down on our camp, 20 men to one of us, as the most of our column had gone out 15 miles further up the country…but they out-flanked us and came down on the camp…They came so numerous that every man in camp was slaughtered, but happily to me I was out with the column, so I was saved.” He made no mention of the defence of Rorke’s Drift but he might have been sparing his mother’s feelings or, as has been suggested to me, he was using another's 'standard letter home text'. 25B/1566 Pte. Jas. Bell (also of Caedraw), Letter, Rorke’s Drift 3rd February 1879, Western Mail 25th March 1879, stated he, Bell, was with the main column and referred to Jones in a way that suggested he had accompanied him. Jones is listed in Waters’s roll (1879) but his name might have become confused with 25B/1179 Pte. John Jones who was a defender or perhaps 25B/1403 Pte. John Jones who apparently was not. (Note that 2-24/970 Pte. John Jones was the same man as 25B/970 Pte. John Jones.)
There is no independent corroboration for 2-24/2389 Corp. Key and 25B/942 Pte. Lynch’s presence at the Drift.
None of the above appears in the latest edition of England's Sons.
There must remain a doubt over Key, Lynch, and particularly Jones’s, status as defenders. I'd be really grateful if anyone knows of an account or remark which would corroborate John Jones, Lynch or Key's presence at, or absence from, the Defence of the Drift.

I remembering asking the same question many years ago on the RDVC website. And if I remember correctly, was told not to read to much into the newspapers it which these letters appeared. But glad you have raised the question. I have seen the letter and you are correct. But where do we go from here. Should be an interesting topic. If he was out with Chelmsford he would have ended up at RD the following morning. Be interesting to get other members opinions.


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Precisely. Gathering others' opinions, or more desirably verifiable facts, was my intention. I'd like nothing more than to be able to confirm these three men's presence at RD.

Can we believe the contents of soldier's letters?

1. There was only a limited amount of writing paper at Rorke's Drift, after the defence, many men of 2/24th were desperate to communicate to their families to inform them back in UK that they had survived the disaster at Isandlwana (then the big news of the day, not defence of RD). Their individual activities over the period was less important. The letters indicated that they were sent from Rorke's Drift - which was true as 2/24th was based there for some 6 weeks following the actual battle - but the letter senders themselves were not directly involved in Isandlwana nor the Defence of Rorke's Drift.

2. The standard of literacy amongst the junior ranks at the time is unknown. It can be assumed that many could not read and write. It is known that those more literate did draft letters on behalf for those less fortunate - they tended to use a standard text - perhaps the soldier concerns only managed a signature. So what I am saying is that 'letters home' cannot always to taken as the 100% true as to what a actually happened to sender of the letter, although many others would take this as concrete evidence.

Kenny
All that is true but Bell's letter, in which Jones (of Caedraw) is twice mentioned, seems to indicate that Jones was with Bell and the Reconnaissance and not at RD.
Fundamentally it's why I wrote this post - to see if anyone had anything else which might corroborate the 3 men's presence.

Shows just how complicated the subject is.

Click Here: The Roll of Rorke’s Drift Defenders The Sources Investigated Norman Holme

Admin
Note that on page 4 Holme missed the fact that the four men were NOT ticked as present by Bourne in his Amended Roll.  He states erroneously the opposite.
You are right that taken as a whole, a Roll is incredibly complicated...but...broken down into individual soldiers and corroborative evidence it need not be.

Kenny wrote:

Can we believe the contents of soldier's letters?

1.    There was only a limited amount of writing paper at Rorke's Drift, after the defence, many men of 2/24th were desperate to communicate to their families to inform them back in UK that they had survived the disaster at Isandlwana (then the big news of the day, not defence of RD).  Their individual activities over the period was less important. The letters indicated that they were sent from Rorke's Drift - which was true as 2/24th was based there for some 6 weeks following the actual battle - but the letter senders themselves were not directly involved in Isandlwana nor the Defence of Rorke's Drift.  

2.   The standard of literacy amongst the junior ranks at the time is unknown.  It can be assumed that many could not read and write.  It is known that those more literate did draft letters on behalf for those less fortunate - they tended to use a standard text - perhaps the soldier concerns only managed a signature.  So what I am saying is that 'letters home'  cannot always to taken as the 100% true as to what a actually happened to sender of the letter, although many others would take this as concrete evidence.  

Your correct there being a shortage of paper, so where did he get the paper from. The letter was date the 28th January so he would have been at RD come in with Chelmsford on the 23rd.

But why would he send a letter to his parents, which can only be read as he was out with Chelmsford. “ They came so numerous that every man in camp was slaughtered, but happily for me I was out with column so I was saved”

He then. Says “ we took the camp back at 10 O’Clock” which was about the time. Chelmsford returned to the camp.

Not sure how he can be so confused. He was either out with the column or at RD one things for sure, he couldn’t be in both places at once.

It is a pity there is a 'ticked off' roll of those present on 23 January 1879 as dramatised in 'Zulu' with actor Nigel Green as CSgt Bourne.

Early rolls must have been produced for the Mayor of Durban recognition of the defenders and the Ladies (RD Testimonial Fund) to hand-out their bibles to the defenders. You will see from Robert Jones VC papers reproduced in Norman Holme's 'The Noble 24th' that it is officially documented that he was present at RD. This could be true for the service papers of other defenders not just those with gallantry awards.

Now we come to Bourne's Roll. Well, on the 30th anniversary of RD (weekend 23/24 January 1909) there was the first gathering of the Regimental Comrades (the formation of Regimental Comrades Benevolent Fund) held at Oudenarde Bks, Aldershot and hosted by 2 SWB. It was probably the first time that number of survivors of RD had gathered together. Only some key players were present - Bourne, Gallagher, Hitch VC, J Williams VC, Gittins, G O Davis and former master tailor Twiggs (perhaps travel costs were deterrent to other AZW veterans attending). Perhaps, the battalion was unable contact them because of lack of names and addresses. The idea of creating a RD roll was probably first discussed at this gathering. The following year a 2nd gathering was held (8-10 May 1910), again hosted by 2nd battalion, at Lower Bks, Chatham. Again there was limited attendance by AZW veterans. Later this same year, 2nd Battalion departed for their posting to South Africa (Pretoria) (then onto China). As far as I can tell, there was no gathering in 1911 even though it could have been hosted by 1st Battalion, which had replaced 2nd at Lower Bks, Chatham. In these pre-WW1 days the celebration of RD day appears to be a 2nd Battalion affair. However, Bourne produced his RD Roll (4 July 1910) after the 2nd Comrades' gathering. The roll was then given to War Office records on 14 Oct 1910 (note post Robert Jones's death). As Norman Holme points out that Bourne would have struggled to remember names after 30+ years (and certainly would not have known personally the non-B Coy men present at RD during the defence).

After the Great War, Regimental Comrades gatherings became annual events and were hosted by the SWB Regimental Depot in Brecon. This gave the opportunity for a number of former AZW veterans living in South Wales to attend in 1920/1930s. During this period, there was also the creation of RD defence (by 2 SWB) at Northern Command Military Tattoo at Ravensworth Castle, Gateshead on 7-14 July 1934 which was attended by a number RD veterans - Bourne, Saxty, C Wood, J Jobbins and W Cooper. By that stage, the Comrades Association had established better records and was able to keep in touch with its former soldiers. The Regimental Journal was able to record deaths and details of funerals of amongst others, AZW veterans. The Association had brought everyone together as family for the first time. There is no doubt that during these gatherings that Bourne's 1910 first RD Roll came up for debate by those who were there in 1879, hence his later changes. Perhaps, one or two veterans had played on the idea for many years they were present on 22/23 January 1879 (when they were probably not) also influence changes; however it was some 50 years or so after the end of AZW and memories might of dimmed a bit but the stories had 'improved'.

Do we know how many men, Chelmsford took with him when he left Isandlwana ?

From England's Sons p. 21:

COLUMN NO. 3 o/c Bvt. Col. R. T. Glyn, C.B. 1/24th Foot.

Staff:
Maj. C. F. Clery, unattached, Principal Staff Officer; Capt. H. H. Parr, 1/13th Foot, seconded from Staff of High Commissioner.

1st Battalion 24th Regiment

Dr. J. G. Thrupp (Civil Surgeon, attached).

2nd Battalion 24th Regiment o/c Lieut.-Col. H. G. Degacher, C.B.
[A, C, D, E, F, H coys and the band] Majs. W. M. Dunbar, W. Black; Capts. J. M. G. Tongue (A), H. B. Church (F), W. P. Symons (D), J. J. Harvey (H); Lieuts. H. M. Williams (C), G. S. Banister (H), H. G. Mainwaring (F), Q. McK. Logan (E), C. V. Trower; Second-Lieuts. R. W. Franklin (D), W. Weallens (E), L. G. L. Dobree (H), A. B. Phipps, C. E. Curll (H); 551 men. [G coy] 4 men.

David Jackson lists in Appendix V - Hill of the Sphinx' (pages 67-68) mentions 17 officers and 465 men from 2/24th. If add in the locals total 2,477.

I think Admin only wanted 24th Regt. numbers but if he wants the rest of the figures:

Lieut.-Gen. (local rank) Lord Chelmsford, K.C.B. Commanding the Forces in South Africa.

GENERAL STAFF:
Bvt. Lieut.-Col. J. N. Crealock, 95th, Asst. Military Secretary; Bvt. Maj. M. W. E. Gosset, 54th, A.D.C.; Capt. E. H. Buller, Rifle Brigade, A.D.C.; Lieut. A. B. Milne, R.N., A.D.C.; Maj. J. G. Dartnell, Commandant of the Natal Mounted Police, commanding Police & Volunteers; Hon. W. Drummond, Chief of Intelligence.

N Battery 5th Brigade Royal Artillery 4 officers 46 men.

1st Squadron Imperial Mounted Infantry 5 officers 87 men.

Natal Mounted Police 3 officers 70 (possibly 90) men.

Natal Carbineers 3 officers 27 men.

Newcastle Mounted Rifles & Buffalo Border Guard
a combined strength of 3 officers 13 or 16 men.

3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent o/c Commdt. Rupert La Trobe Lonsdale; Capt. (local rank) H. C. Harford, 99th.

1st Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent 23 officers about 34 N.C.O.s and 880 men.

2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent 22 officers about 25 N.C.O.s and 770 men.

Natal Native Pioneer Corps 2 officers about 90 men.

Thanks Julian.

I wonder if those that claimed to have been at Rorke's Drift were actually part of the relief force, as they were actually at Rorke's Drift. I don't recall any of these giving accounts or information regarding the action at Rorke's drift. But they do give accounts and details of the action at Isandlwana. Just a thought.

Because the important news of the day in the papers was the disaster at Isandlwana and the loss of so many men. Every man who survived, whether at Isandlwana itself, Chelmsford’s column, Helpmekaar, Rorke’s Drift, etc. would wish get a message home to say they were not a Isandlwana casualty.

Which brings us back to the same question. Why would those who were out with Chelmsford claim to have been at Rorkes drift to the point where they get put on the roll call, and a 142 years later cause us these annoying problem's.

Often when the news reached U.K., with a letter addressed from Rorke’s Drift, the recipients assume the writer was at Rorke’s Drift on 22/23 January.  The story just stuck.  The problem is that there is no accurate definitive list of defenders drawn up after the battle.  I think we are always going to have soldiers whose presence/location on 22/23 January is up for debate and argument. We should proud of all those men who took part in AZW and endured horrendous conditions and situations.

In more modern times, many claim to be ‘D-day’ veterans. D-day was 6 June 1944 and incidentally 2/24th (2 SWB) landed that memorable day in history. But other units landed in Normandy up to 6 weeks later - but today they are all classed as D-day heroes.

Agreed. But the confusion sets in when they write home saying they were with Chelmsfords colum. But end up on the RD roll call. Its going along the road of stolen valour.

Here's an example of those that claimed to have been at Rorkes Drift and enjoyed the fame.

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There are two types of fraudsters.
First there are those who wilfully make untrue claims - we see these all the time nowadays, the fakers, the fraudsters, the plagiarists, trying to steal what is due to another. I'm not qualified to give you an answer. You'll need to approach a psychologist as to what makes them tick.
Then there are those like, I suspect, John Jones, Key and Lynch. The first time their names appeared on any roll was on Bourne's Roll from 1910 (Jones's appeared once in 1879 but not in any readily identifiable way) - in other words THIRTY years after the event. I doubt if any of them ever realized their names were on an RD roll. They may even have been dead by that time and are certainly innocent of having made any false claim themselves. This may have been the result of Bourne's faulty memory.

Some really good points there.
I suppose those who appeared in the newspapers of the day were telling the truth in that, they was at Rorkes Drift allbeit on the 23rd with Chelmsfords colum. As you say, they may not have known they had been placed on the roll call.The news paper article written by John Jones clearly shows he out with Chelmsford. It's just a pity we don't have a list of names who went out with Chelmsford from isandlwana.

Wow! It's taken me a lifetime to compile all the individual names accurately for Isandhlwana...I think I'll leave that job for my dotage or for the next generation!! It might not be too difficult though - Holme's Noble 24th lists them all. You'd just have to weed out all those who arrived late or were known to be elsewhere. I have other fish to fry at the moment.

Admin,

We need a sense of reality - we cannot look at 1879 through our experiences of 21st century living - computers, good communication, video images, air travel, and the NHS etc - these certainly did not exist then.  There was a lack of paper, everything was hand-written after a long-day's march or fighting off the enemy, there was disease, many documents/rolls got lost, even soldiers' names could be miss-spelt or not clearly written. [Remember, I am sure you do, that it was only just pre-WW1 when the man in the street started paying income tax - then he made sure that his names were spelt correctly to the Tax Office]. Yes, we can quickly produce a list of those 460 or so soldiers of 2/24th who we believe where out with Lord Chelmsford looking for the Zulu army at the time when the defence of Rorke's Drift was taken place.  But there are are always going to be queries - did he stay in PMB?  Did he come out with a draft in 1878 or later in 1879?  Was he alive?  Can we believe or find any supporting evidence?  Does appear accurate or authentic?  We have to be thankful for the research undertaken by Julian Whybra.  But you have to realize that some of the queries will never be resolved - it is not an exact science. There is always going to remain that element of doubt.

Remember, most first AZW lists were only generated by John Hayward and Normal Holme to satisfy the requirements of medal collectors.  I take my hat to any soldier who served in AZW whatever his role.  It was a very tough campaign in difficult conditions and many did not return home.  Ever tried walking on foot from PMB to Helpmekaar (some 140 miles)?  Then you know you have taken part in a campaign.

I totally agree. There will always be the possibles and the probables attached to every list. And there will always be revisions. Therein lies the attraction perhaps.

Has anyone a copy of Bourne's "amended" roll with the ticks? Is it in any archive or still in private hands?
I'm sure part of it has been published though I cannot check my library as I'm isolating away from home at the moment.

Bill
It is printed in Holme's The Silver Wreath. If you don't have a copy I'll scan and send it to you.
Julian

Thank you very much, that would be greatly appreciated if it's not too much trouble? I'd thought I'd seen it somewhere.
I only have a few books with me to aid me in my research down here. Again many thanks

Bill

Sent to your e-mail address.
Julian

Thanks for taking the time, but it has not hit my inbox yet. I'm not sure which address you hold. You haven't mistaken me for Bill Cainen? (ex curator?) Nice to be associated with such company but that's not me!

Bill

I have! No doubt Bill Cainan is enjoying the scans.
Please pm me your e-mail address!!!
Apologies!

Done!

Is it possible that the men in question were at rorkes drift but not as defenders, maybe they arrived with Chelmsford so they were there, but took no part in the defence? In my younger years I served in the Royal Navy and was part of the task force sent to the falklands, on my return home and my first leave, the father in law took me to his local pub, and after he told everyone proudly how I was his son in law and had just returned from the Falklands, we never bought a drink all night! In fact every time I went in that pub I never bought a drink for the duration of my leave....perhaps that’s the sort of thing that drove people to say they were there, it might have given them free booze and a better standing in their community...

Danny1960
It was common , over the years many false newspaper articles by those who were '' there '' , just not there on the 22 & 23rd Jan 1879
90th

And there lies the answer 90th.
Little did they know then, the problems they would cause us in 2021.

Danny
Your suggestion does not apply in this case because the four men in question NEVER claimed they were defenders. It was Col.-Sergt. Bourne who stated they were defenders on his c. 1910 roll. 25 years later he removed them from that list in an amended roll. Then in two accounts made just before he died he mentioned by name one of the four as having been a defender.
The remaining three left no accounts or letters themselves and are not mentioned in others'.

This indicates that possibly Bourne's efforts are the less reliable of the lists produced having been published 30+ and 44 years after the Defence. Even thought he would have known many of the personalities.  It must have been real test of memory for him.

Ok thanks Julian, certainly raises a lot of questions, you could spend many year’s trying to get to the bottom of that one

Danny
Well, you never know, it might not be years. Bourne changed his mind over the fourth man, Lewis, and mentioned him in his two late accounts. That would be because Lewis attended the reunions and must have jogged Bourne's memory. The other three didn't (perhaps they'd died in the interim) but I live in hope a descendant will respond...