Laagering of Wagons at iSandlwana and Laager Commandants

Morning Kate
Quote: Thats fine but all I would say is that if we adopted this approach in relation to the battle with its huge gaping holes in the evidence then not a single book would have been written on the subject. We would all be sitting back waiting for that holy grail piece of correspondance to surface that explained exactly what happened."
Its on its way. " Isandlwana, Solving the Enigma." [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Sample page Very Happy

Kate
No not any better though I do have 2 days of anti-biotics still to go, thanks.
I agree it's a worthy course you've embarked on and its importance has not been such as to have received due recognition - possibly for the very reason that LC did not himself attach that importance to it. Though Glyn might. That has to be found out. I suppose ultimately LC might be said to have been right about not needing to laager, UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, as at Ulundi. It's just that those circs didn't apply at Isandhlwana - and that's where the criticism should lie. He never intended that a small force like Pulleine's should be 'caught with its trousers down' in an indefensible position. Yet he allowed it to happen for a few vital hours because his eye was off the ball. He learnt an important lesson that day; others paid the price for his mistake.
My 'don't know-wait and see' box is not one that excludes finding all available evidence, discussion of it or making suggestions. It is simply not one that states the goal first and then sets out to prove it. I've rambled a bit here but my head is swimming - amoxicillin, ibuprofen, beconese, benylin, chlorasomething, inGobamakhosi....

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Crikey that is quite a list of drugs. Shocked

I would lay off the inGobamakhosi though.

Taken Raw it initially doesn't seem to be having much effect, apparently lying dormant in the body but its effects will suddenly hit you and can lead to swelling of the nek, panic attacks, loose bowls and ultimately the complete collapse of the bodies resistance.
Alcohol is the best medicine. Can I recommend a good strong laager in the evening Joker

Now you run along back to the sick bay where you belong.

Looking forward to it Frank
Kate Very Happy

Ho ho!

Frank,

I’m looking forward to it as well, if only the publisher would respond to my e-mails.

JY

John...what you too? And I thought I was being patient!

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At the moment Julian you are a patient!
I ordered number 14 back in December but since then no updates from the publishers or response about delivery times. Frank has given me an update but I will leave it for him to respond.
Kate

post 303 Shocked

OK so I'm a patient patient. Sounds like someone from Catch 22: Major Major the patient patient.

Glad to see I'm not the only one. Emailed yesterday again about number 18. See what she says.

Hi Folks
Unfortunatly I have no say in when things happen. However in saying that, SA is in the throes of holiday season, Builders Holidays on which everyone works ends middle of next week. I believe Aulette will be back at work then.
Before xmas I was told that the paper backs would be distributed before New Year and they have started to do that. The end papers for the hard covers were sent to me for signature on the 18th December and returned on the 20th ready for printing in January.
Thats really all the information I have for the time being. I will ring the office at 30 degrees mid week and see if I can garner anything more and then re post.

Frank

Kate
Does this help?
Notes from Shiela Henderson:
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Hmm, interesting. It reads like he joined just as a conductor, no more than that. I assume he survived the battle...more research to do!
Frank, these Sheila Henderson notes, are they at Talana or in the Campbell Collections?

Julian they are at Talana. All in AZW 16200 files.

Brilliant. Thanks Frank

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Thanks Frank
There is a similar account in 'The Zulu War and the Colony of Natal' published by Qualitas LTD in 1979
The reason the Dubois did not join was because they were not happy about the carefree mood of the British Staff Officers and spoke sourly of the army "picnicking"
Kate

Frank
Louis Phillippe DuBois's brother, Edward Ormond Lionel DuBOIS (corrected later by hand, I notice, in the above doc. from ‘Edmond’), was born in 1846. Since he lived until 1919 he must have escaped the massacre.

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According to Sheila the three brothers were Edmond, Robert and Louis.
Edmond and Robert "refused flaty to join the column." for the reasons I've written above.

Hi
There were more siblings than just three. Look carefully at the hand-written part above - you'll see Sheila's corrected Edmond to Edward. This is borne out by his birth certificate and marriage certificate: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Look at his signature - Edward Ormond Lionel Du Bois.
His family tree - the family settled in Greytown - can be found on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Refused flatly, yes, but apparently according to Sheila then changed his mind and accompanied the Column to Isandhlwana.

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So the children are:-
James du Bois 1800 – 1.8.1856 Durban • MVJW-H5Z
Frances Hyslop 1817 – Nov 1877 Dundee • MVJW-H5L
Children of Frances Hyslop and James du Bois (8)
Robert James Du Bois 1839–1908 • MVJW-HPT
Walter Alfred Du Bois 1840–1906 • 97LJ-9RT
Edward Hyslop Du Bois 1841–Deceased • LY1F-X3H
Fanny Bertha Rosalie Du Bois 1842–1908 • LY1F-Z9C
Louis Phillipe Du Bois 1844–1879 • LY13-WY5
Edmund Ormond Lionel du Bois SV/PROG 24.5.1846 London – 16.4.1919 Dundee • L5RR-VJ5
Conrad William Du Bois 29.8.1849 London – 15.7.1883 Biggarsberg • LY13-W8R
Fanny Laura Du Bois Deceased • LY1F-6SZ [1]

Edmond (or Edmund) and Robert did not go but could the lack of information about Edward's death be down to him unofficially tagging along with the column and being KIA at iSandlwana?
If so he would have been at most a conductor and not the elusive Laager Commandant.
Frank is there any other material written by Sheila that backs up the note written on the document?
She makes no mention in her article when talking about the Dubois family about an Edward going with the column so am assuming the note was written after the article was published.
Kate

Kate
Im busy looking through the file at present, its huge Shiela loved writing things down copiously.
Frank

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Morning Frank thanks for posting these up. They make very interesting reading. I am assuming these are Sheilas's notes for various articles she wrote as there are elements in there very similar to this article written by her:-

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So the Erskine and Dubois families knew each other and Edmond and Robert had been in action before.
However she only writes Dubois above. I'm wondering if there had been two in the column, Edward and Louis, would she not have quantified it by using a first name when describing the death. In "The Zulu war and The Colony of Natal" she only mentions Louis as going. There is no mention of Edward.

Interesting about the artillerymen trying to open the ammunition boxes.
Now for my morning brew.
Kate Very Happy

Kate yes these are all the rough notes for a number of her articles. Still wading through them, some really interesting thoughts letters and snippets.
33 degrees here and climbing so time for my morning brew and it aint Tea.

Gone quiet. Researching. In the zone.
By the by, Kate, who was the 'Jackson' who was also safe, referred to at the beginning of the excerpt you posted at 8.29 am?
And...
the earlier Erskine-Du Bois Limpopo expedition can be found at:
'Journey of Exploration to the Mouth of the River Limpopo'
Author(s): Vincent W. Erskine
Source: The Journal of the Royal Geographical Society of London , 1869, Vol. 39 (1869),
pp. 233-276
Published by: Wiley on behalf of The Royal Geographical Society (with the Institute of
British Geographers)
Stable URL: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Fri Jan 21, 2022 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

The Du Bois males:
Edmund Ormond Lionel died 16.4.1919 Helpmekaar
Robert James died 12.12.1908 Cape Town
Walter Alfred died 1906
Edward Hyslop died 1905
Louis Phillippe. kia 22.1.1879
Conrad William died 15.7.1883 Biggarsberg
Either Edmund (acc. to Sheila Henderson) or Robert ([and was kia] see p. 47 ZV - no source given, pretty obviously an error for Louis) or Edward (acc. to Henderson possibly, depending on how you read it, which I doubt because he married and had children in England) engaged as a conductor and went to Isandhlwana. Edmund (by a process of elimination it WAS him) evidently escaped because he lived locally, had children, and died in the C20.

It looks like Edmund's marriage certificate contains a number of errors - was the vicar inebriated? - hence the confusion as to whether it was Edmund or Edward written.
It doesn’t help that Sheila Henderson seems to have ‘corrected’ Edmond to Edward in her Notes.
Even Edmund’s birth register entry in England (Alverstoke, Hampshire) was made out to Emma Ormond Lionel!!!
However Edmund’s son and grandson were both Edmund Ormond Lionel the II and III so I’m pretty sure that this is the man’s correct name and spelling.
I’ve written to Talana to ask if they have anything on the Du Bois and a possible presence oof Edmund at Isandhlwana apart from Sheila’s notes.

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Hmm I don't seem to be getting notifications of postings to this thread.
Sorry chaps.
Julian I will look back through the article and try and dig out more about Jackson.
Thanks for all your help re the Du Bois family.
It appears after the disaster the Dubois brothers, along with Dohnes and such local families as had not fled, were brought into Fort Pine by Robson and remnants of the Buffalo Border Guard.
All cars wait for an update.
Kate Very Happy

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Got it Julian.
It seems Jackson was Henry Francis Fynn's interpreter who lived in a wattle-and-daub thatched cottage near Fynn's magistracy in Umsinga. A mile away two Brickhill brothers lived at Knox Store.
Another unknown iSandlwana survivor perhaps?

This also about the Du Bois:-
"The hunters, traders and sawyers of Helpmekaar whose livelihood was ultimatly related to Zululand, were invaluable sources of information. Among the best were the DuBois brothers, highly experienced and balanced judges of affairs. Their reports underline the major problem; how to control the border"

Perhaps this is why Glynn wanted to employ them so much
Kate Very Happy

Right. I think a lot will depend on what was said previously about Jackson and the context, but he may yet prove interesting. I wouldn't have thought Fynn needed an interpreter (unless it was in Dutch); I thought he spoke fluent Zulu.
Interesting too that Henderson says that it was GLYN (the column commander) doing the searching and interviewing for a laager commdt. It does at least show that Glyn had not given up trying to find one.
By the by I am also not getting notifications about this thread. Is it catching?

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As I thought. Perhaps Jackson worked for Fynn as an assistant?

I have a reference to a number of letters sent to a Mr Jackson. Just chasing them down.

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Morning all on this special day. Hope everyone had a restful night, uninterupted by too many false alarms.
Frank are Sheila's notes dated?
The article I have was written by her I believe c1978/9.
Heres her description of Jackson.

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I agree it does seem odd he would need an interpreter. Keep your eyes peeled going through the notes Frank for any other mention of him. Sheila has obviously got him from somewhere but there are no source notes attached to the article.

Re Henderson, thats why Bellairs asked GLYN who had been appointed to the role of Laager Commandant in the letter on page 1 of this thread. Though Bellairs must have spoken to Chelmsford about it, who probably denied all knowledge of knowing anything about the appointment despite GLYN informing him about the problem.

Sorry Frank our posts seemed to have crossed there.

I need to be carefull how I phrase this to be PC.
Generally the white population in SA had/has a distinct disability to pronounce Zulu/Xhosa names so second names were taken with a more european sound. Jackson was a very popular name. Wink

Fynn had a number of wives both white and zulu with a vast array of children, I would suggest the possibility that Jackson could have been one of those. Just thinking out loud and sorry if this offends.

Sorry the Jackson letters I have were written by Walter Jones.

No offence Frank. No need to apologize.

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Finally found the answer to my initial question:-
"THERE WAS NO LAAGAR COMMANDANT WITH NUMBER 3 COLUMN"

Clery:-
"Every effort was made to obtain the services of a Laagar Commandant during the fortnight I was attached to the column previous to its advance into Zululand -
First a Mr Dubois who was respected by the resident magistrate at Umsinga as a very competent person appeared willing to accept the appointment, but kept putting off making an agreement and finally refused to come. Next a Mr Woodruffe similarly recommended continued in treaty and secured as if he wished to come, but he at the last moment refused also to come. So that no Laagar Commandant accompanied the column"
Very Happy

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For anybody who is still awake and not lost the will to live with this topic:

Apparently, no laager was formed as the wagons were due to go back to RD the next day.

Clery 9th February 1879 to Lord Chelmsford, early on the morning of the 22nd:-

"I mentioned to him that the empty wagons were, according to his orders, to start at daybreak for Rorke's Drift, which would reduce the force left in camp by hte escort required by the wagons. The General then directed that these wagons should not go back that day."

If a laager commandant had been present, and with the wagons not going back to RD, he could have been instructed to form a small defensive laagar for the oxen or perhaps as a redoubt.

Kate
Not all the waggons were due to go back. It was just 30 if memory serves me correctly. These were due to go back under Smith-Dorrien's command.

Last edited by Julian Whybra on Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total

Kate
The thread is not boring everyone to death - far from it.
I think that while most of us recognized that there was no official appointment of a laager commdt. to No. 3 Column, the other question to be answered is whether there was anyone in camp who, if called upon in an emergency, could function, unofficially, in that capacity. I believe there was but I have a lot more research to do on the man before I commit myself.

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Sorry I should have clarified my last post.
I was aware that not all the wagons were going back but its always put forward that waggons were not formed into a laager because they were being prepared to go back to RD.

But this shows they weren't. LC cancelled the order and, before he set off, if he had had the trained personnel he could have ordered the empty wagons to form a small laager somehwhere around the camp possibly on the reverse slope of the nek where the wagons were lined up.
He only had to give the order ....IF he had the trained personnel. Rolling Eyes

One thing thats often overlooked is the wagons themselves. The original Trek Boer used a much smaller wagon, easier to move by hand and more adaptable. The much bigger examples used by the army were very cumbersome, heavy and unwieldy by hand. I would hate to try and guess how many men it would take to try and move them.
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Wood managed it Frank with the same mix of wagons. But then he had a Laager Commandant Wink

Another dubious quote from LordC dated the 27th January:-

"Had the force in question but taken up a defensive position in the camp itself and utilised there the materials for a hasty entrenchment which lay near to hand, I feel absolutely confident that the whole Zulu army would not have been able to dislodge them"

This just shows how little Chelmsford understood about the speed and effectiveness of a Zulu attack.

He then says:-
"It appears that the oxen were yoked to the wagons three hours before the attack took place so that there was ample time to construct a laager which the Dutch in former days understood so well"

Which begs the question in correspondance with my Feb 13th 6.14pm post, if LC cancelled the order to send back the wagons to RD why did HE not order a laager formed before he left?
Rolling Eyes

Kate, there was quite a senior Conductor at iSandlwana with Durnfords Column, David Nolan, Im just trying to chase down more info on him.

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Standing by Frank.

» Orders to laager at Isandhlwana
» Wagons at Isandlwana
» Another two case's of not Laagering and before Isandlwana. Maybe?