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| | Native of Tonypandy | |
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Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Native of Tonypandy Sun Sep 04, 2022 1:27 pm | |
| In his letter published in The Western Mail Saturday, March 29th 1879, Thomas Evans writes home to his wife to Inform her that he was not amongst the men killed on 22 January 1879. He goes on to informs her he was fighting at The defence of Rorke's Drift. He says they set fire to the hospital and I was in the midst of this fight and about 100 of us killed about 600 of the enemy with only loss of 15 men among ourselves.
I only see a Frederick Evans and a Abraham Evans as defenders of Rorke's Drift on the roll. Is Thomas Evans one of the above or has he been deemed to be elsewhere? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:20 pm | |
| Could this be one of the 3 or 4 "possible" defenders Julian has mentioned in the past? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:09 pm | |
| Full letter translated:
Dear wife - I send you these few lines to inform you that I was not among the unfortunate men belonging to our regiment who were killed on the 22nd of this month. The camp was left in charge of some 850 privates and officers, and they were out (Allan) they were attacked and all killed excepting 20. The Zulus crossed into Natal and attacked another station (goraaf arall) ; but another company of our regiment poured out (geltwng Allan); such fire against them that they failed to force an entrance, and when they saw what number of men among them was being killed they set fire to the hospital and then retreated. I was in the midst of this fight and about 100 of us killed about 600 of the enemy with a loss of 15 men among ourselves. On the following morning, what remained of our regiment came to us, and we are now waiting for others to come and take our place, because we have neither clothes not anything else. I do not suppose we shall go to the battlefield again, because our companies are so cut up that it will be hardly possible to form us into a Regiment (catrawd). I shall write again when that is possible, and will give you full particulars your affectionate husband, Thomas Evans.
The Western Mail Saturday 29 March 1879 Sent from Rorke's Drift 28 January 1879. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:44 pm | |
| I have reposted this as I do not see a Thomas Evans on the list of Defenders, yet he has been mentioned as a defender in the past. Can anyone tell me why he is not on the list?
25B/954 Pte Thomas Evans H Company 2/24th
Last edited by Eddie on Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:46 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add regimental details) |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Kenny
Posts : 598 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:22 am | |
| Eddie,
Have you read assessment Norman Holme's The Noble 24th - pages 304-307? I suspect that Julian Whybra may have some views on this. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:41 am | |
| An old thread (Heading: 25B/953 Pte Frederick Evans, Mon, Jan 13 2014, 11:29am) Julian says that 25B/954 Thomas Evans H Company 2/24th is a defender.
An old thread ( 24th Survivors, Sun, Jul 14, 2013, 11:25pm) Littlehand referred to a letter written by Frederick Evans to his wife in Tonypandy. The letter above is also written to Thomas Evans wife in Tonypandy, this also translated from Welsh. Could Littlehand have got the letter mixed up with the wrong Evans, having at the time thought Frederick Evans was the man who alerted the Drift, later rectified. (No offence LH, long time ago). The thread concerns which Evans were present at the defence. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:58 pm | |
| Eddie This is complicated so despite not feeling very well I'll try to unpick it for you.
Norman Holme (4) concluded mistakenly that the Isandhlwana fugitive “of the Mounted Infantry, named Evans” (5) who warned Rorke’s Drift was 25B/953 Pte. Frederick Evans H coy 2/24th. However, he was not in the I.M.I. Holme confused him with 45/726 Pte. Edward Evans 2/3rd Regt. who was IMI and did escape from Isandhlwana (6) and, by his own account, (7) warned the Drift. Articles in 1990 (8) and later (9) referred to this and Holme acknowledged it without revising his text. The name “Pte. Evans H coy” did appear in the ‘Chard’ Roll of Rorke’s Drift Defenders, in Bourne’s Amended Roll, and “Frederick Evans” appeared in Dunbar’s Roll by dint of which he received a copy of the Address by the Mayor of Durban. This time Holme confused Frederick with a genuine Defender and possible hospital patient, 25B/954 Pte. Thomas Evans H coy 2/24th. Holme states erroneously that Frederick Evans wrote a letter home in Welsh to his wife in Tonypandy. This letter, dated 28th January 1879, was in fact written by 25B/954 Pte. Thomas Evans, 2/24th in which he states he was at Rorke’s Drift. (10) In fact Frederick Evans was with Chelmsford’s Reconnaissance.(11)
I hope that's all clear: Pte. Edward Evans IMI 2/3 - genuine Isandhlwana who rode to warn the RD but did not stay. Pte. Thomas Evans H coy 2/24 - genuine RD defender and possible hospital patient Pte. Frederick Evans H coy 2/24- with LC's Reconnaissance on the Mangeni.
Footnotes 4 Holme, The Silver Wreath, (London, 1979), p. 69; and The Noble 24th, (London, 1999), pp. 131 and 304-5. The last same erroneous passage appears verbatim as an essay in Greaves, A., Redcoats and Zulus, (London, 2005) without any reference to subsequent research or articles. 5 Hitch, 25B 1362 Private Frederick, Letter, The Cambrian, 13th June 1879. Several others wrote of Evans’s arrival including Private Waters, Corporal Lyons, and Lieutenant Chard. 6 McToy, Edward D., A Brief History of the 13th Regiment (P.A.L.I.) in South Africa During the Transvaal and Zulu Difficulties 1877-8-9, (Devonport, 1880), pp. 36-7. 7 Evans, 45/726 Private Edward, Letter in the Montgomeryshire Express, 1st April 1879. 8 Whybra, Julian, The 1st Squadron, Imperial Mounted Infantry 1877-1879, Soldiers of the Queen [SOTQ], Issue 58/59, January 1990. 9 Whybra, Julian, More Noble 24th, SOTQ, (Issue 108, March 2002), revised in Studies in the Zulu War 1879: II, (Writtle, 2013, 2nd ed. 2014), pp. 19-25. 10 English translation published in South Wales Daily Telegram, 28th March, 1879. 11 Evans, 25B/953 Private Frederick, Letter to his uncle and aunt 27th July 1879, Pontypool Free Press, 13th September 1879.
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:45 pm | |
| Julian.
If you are not feeling to well you should have replied again later, so I sincerely thank you for all that information and hope you get well soon.
I understood previously that Edward Evans escaped Isandlwana and warned Rorke's Drift and rode on. I understood, and had read the letters of the men mentioned, indicating he had done so. What I didn't understand was where Thomas Evans fitted in, after reading his letter, and not seeing him listed on any of the rolls. I still can't find him listed on any roll on this forum, only Abraham and Frederick Evans are listed. If, as you say Frederick was out with LC's reconnaissance why is he on all the rolls as a defender and Thomas is not? Is it because it cannot be changed, and that it can only be referred to in later publications? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:46 am | |
| Eddie Don't look at the Rolls on this forum. Look at the original rolls. The 'Chard' Roll lists Pte. Evans with no mention of his initial or number just his coy. The Bourne Amended Roll lists him in the same way. The Waters Roll lists him in the same way. There was therefore definitely a Pte. Evans from H coy present at RD. The key elements are the letters from Thomas Evans H coy describing his participation at RD and Frederick Evans H coy describing his return with LC's Reconnaissance. Frederick would hardly have written a letter home in this way if HAD been at RD. The Dunbar list is not a Roll but a scroll of the 24th men to whom an address and a bible were given and there were omissions. It does list 'Frederick Evans' but this can only be a typo for Thomas. I do not know whether Thomas was present and received the copy of the address/bible or whether Frederick was and received them error. Frederick, I should state emphatically, was NOT listed on any Roll.
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:03 am; edited 4 times in total |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:59 am | |
| Eddie I haven't looked at any of the Rolls typed into the pages of this forum so cannot vouch for the accuracy of their transcriptions. I only ever work with originals. I realize that not everyone has access to them or good photocopies of them. However... You can find good reproductions of the original 'Chard' Roll, Bourne Roll, and Bourne Amended Roll in the Silver Wreath by Norman Holme. Unfortunately, they are not ALL reproduced in his update of it: The Noble 24th. The Waters Roll - The Times 10.6.1879 - is reproduced on pp. 70-1 of my Studies in the Zulu War vol. II. I am feeling a little better today but still ache and feel drained - thanks for your good wishes. Another day and I'll be back to normal. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:35 am | |
| P.S. A copy of the Dunbar Roll also appears in The Silver Wreath. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:45 am | |
| Thank you Julian, good to know your feeling a little better.
I hope you don't feel I'm being awkward here but even other Zulu war sites have Frederick Evans as a defender at Rorke's Drift, not Thomas Evans. Even lists produced on here by well known historians have Frederick and not Thomas as a defender. I am sure you are correct, just by reading the letter I knew when it was linked with Frederick it was wrong.
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:42 pm | |
| Eddie Of course I don't think you're being awkward. It's perfectly natural that you should raise this point. Other sites may well have lists of defenders on them...but of individuals' own creation...they are not providing any sources for what they are publishing. These other sites are incorrect in stating Fred. Evans was at RD and in omitting Thomas Evans. I have quoted the first-hand evidence by Fred. and Thomas themselves to prove this. Perhaps you should raise your question on those sites and ask those individuals to justify Fred. and Thomas's inclusion and exclusion respectively. The answers you get will be enlightening. Neither am I responsible for what other 'well-known' historians on this site have written in their lists. 'Well-known' does not mean they have a monopoly on the truth, as most of us on this site realize. Historians, well-known or otherwise, make mistakes. But I also realize that I do not have a monopoly on the truth. So, I suggest that where those lists of defenders on this forum have the compiler's name attached, you ask them in similar vein to justify the inclusion/exclusion of Fred. and Thomas. I am not out to persuade you one way or the other. You're free to believe anything you like. I can only deal with the evidence (documentation and first-hand accounts by those involved) available.
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:13 pm | |
| Eddie I should also say that historians are allowed to change their minds in the light of newly-found evidence. That's one of the reasons why I produce updated editions of England's Sons. Perhaps those other compilers you mention haven't bothered to update their lists or have taken their lists from a list compiled in the 1990s, or haven't ever read the letters of Fred. and Thomas Evans. The explanation you're seeking might be as simple as that. There was a line from the film Waterloo: "A good soldier knows how to defend a hopeless position". Well, a good historian knows how to abandon one. Being seen to be right is not important, the truth is. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:21 pm | |
| Eddie You will have noticed that the letter you referenced in your first post on this thread is in fact a re-publication of an earlier letter in the South Wales Daily Telegram, 28th March, 1879. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:36 pm | |
| Julian
I totally agree with all you have said. Isn't it strange that your evidence, mentioned above, is clearly understood, yet Thomas has still not been included by many, particular taking into account the letters indicating their whereabouts.
I do understand that Thomas H company has been deemed to be the Evans with no Christian name on the original rolls. Original rolls you mentioned can obviously not be altered, however I do believe you have included him as a defender in other publications as mentioned.
It would be interesting to hear others views on here now, and why his name is not included on lists in these forums.
Cheers Eddie |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:39 pm | |
| Yes Julian I have noted the letter in the south Wales Daily Telegram, and that it was translated from Welsh. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:57 pm | |
| Eddie "Original rolls you mentioned can obviously not be altered, however I do believe you have included him [Thomas] as a defender in other publications as mentioned."
Thomas is included as a defender in my England's Sons 9th edition 2020 and my position has not changed. In the 1st edition 2004 I believe I had both Frederick and Thomas (but annotated with ?) as letters had not yet been discovered. I have forgotten when that discovery was but the following edition reflected it: Thomas was included, Frederick was not. The editing was not foolproof and Frederick's name was left on one page by accident but has since been removed.
"It would be interesting to hear others views on here now, and why his name is not included on lists in these forums."
As I said, ask them direct. Use the pm facility if privacy is preferred. I'm sure that in most cases it will simply have been a case of not bothering, not updating, or not knowing. I'm not sure what policy ADMIN holds on the accuracy of lists placed in the public domain as freely-available information on the Forum.
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:05 pm | |
| Eddie For what it's worth, here is the current list of defenders, less footnotes, from my current list (i.e. what will be included on the 10th edition, probably 2025):
1st battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire)2 25B/56 Sergeant Edward Wilson G coy prisoner escort 25B/135 Private William Beckett A coy 25B/568 Private Patrick Desmond G coy prisoner escort 1-24/1861 Private William Horrigan G coy 25B/295 Private David Jenkins3 G coy prisoner escort 25B/841 Private James Edmund Jenkins D coy 25B/625 Private Edward Nicholas D coy prisoner escort (?) 25B/372 Private Thomas Payton G coy prisoner escort 1-24/1542 Private William Roy E coy prisoner escort 25B/104 Private Henry Turner H coy storeman 1-24/447 Private John Waters E coy hospital orderly
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) B coy
Lieutenant Gonville Bromhead (o/c B coy) 2-24/2459 Colour-Sergeant Frank Bourne 25B/81 Sergeant Henry Gallagher 2-24/1387 Sergeant George Smith 2-24/735 Sergeant Joseph Lenford Windridge 25B/1328 Lance-Sergeant Thomas Williams 2-24/1240 Corporal William Wilson Allen4 2-24/582 Corporal John Barker French5 2-24/2389 Corporal John Key * 25B/1112 Corporal John Jeremiah Augustus Lyons 25B/849 Corporal Alfred Saxty6 25B/1287 Lance-Corporal William Henry Bessell 25B/1282 Lance-Corporal William Halley 2-24/2067 Drummer Patrick Hayes 2-24/2381 Drummer James Keefe 2-24/913 Private James Ashton 25B/1381 Private Thomas Barry 25B/918 Private William Bennett 2-24/2427 Private John Bly 2-24/981 Private Charles Bromwich7 25B/1524 Private Joseph Bromwich8 25B/1184 Private Thomas Buckley 25B/1220 Private Thomas F. Burke 2-24/2350 Private James Bushe 25B/1181 Private William Henry Camp 25B/1241 Private Thomas Chester 25B/755 Private Thomas Clayton 25B/801 Private Thomas Cole 25B/1396 Private Thomas Collins 2-24/2310 Private Anthony Connors 2-24/1323 Private Timothy Connors 25B/470 Private George Davies 25B/1363 Private William Henry Davis 25B/1178 Private Thomas Daw 25B/1467 Private George Deacon9 25B/1357 Private Michael Deane 2-24/1634 Private William Dicks10 25B/971 Private Thomas Driscoll 25B/1421 Private James Dunbar 25B/972 Private George Edwards11 25B/969 Private John Fagan 2-24/2429 Private Edward Gee 25B/798 Private James Hagan12 25B/1062 Private John Harris 25B/1362 Private Frederick Hitch 25B/1373 Private Alfred Henry Hook 25B/1061 Private John Samuel Jobbins 25B/1428 Private Evan Jones13 25B/970 Private John Jones14 * 25B/1179 Private John Jones 25B/716 Private Robert Jones 2-24/593 Private William Jones 2-24/2437 Private Peter Judge 25B/972 Private Patrick Kears15 25B/1386 Private Michael Kiley 25B/963 Private David Lewis16 * 2-24/1528 Private Henry Lines 25B/1409 Private David Lloyd 25B/1176 Private Thomas Lockhart 25B/1304 Private Joshua Lodge 25B/942 Private Thomas Michael Lynch * 25B/964 Private James Marshall 25B/756 Private Henry Herbert Martin 25B/1284 Private Charles Mason17 2-24/1527 Private Michael Minehan18 25B/968 Private Thomas John Moffatt 25B/1342 Private Augustus Morris 25B/525 Private Frederick Morris 25B/1371 Private Thomas Morrison 25B/662 Private John Murphy 25B/1279 Private William Neville19 25B/1257 Private Robert Norris 25B/1480 Private William Osborne20 25B/1399 Private Samuel Parry 25B/1186 Private Samuel Pitt 25B/1286 Private Thomas Robinson21 25B/1185 Private Edward Savage22 2-24/1618 Private George Shearman 2/24/914 Private John Shergold 25B/1005 Private John Smith 25B/777 Private Thomas Edward Stevens 2-24/1812 Private William Tasker 25B/973 Private Frederick Taylor 25B/889 Private Thomas Taylor 25B/1280 Private John Thomas23 25B/1394 Private John Thompson 25B/641 Private Patrick Tobin24 25B/1281 Private William John Todd 25B/1315 Private Robert Tongue 25B/1497 Private John Wall 2-24/977 Private Alfred Whitton25 25B/1187 Private William Wilcox 25B/1395 Private John Williams26 25B/1398 Private Joseph Williams 25B/1316 Private Caleb Wood27
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) A coy
2-24/2383 Drummer John Meehan 2-24/1441 Private John Lyons 2-24/1731 Private John Manley 25B/1051 Private John Scanlon 2-24/2404 Private Arthur Sears 2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) D coy
2-24/1713 Drummer Patrick Galgey 25B/987 Private Robert Adams 25B/1335 Private James Chick28 2-24/1769 Private Garret Henry Hayden
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) E coy
25B/82 Lance-Sergeant James Taylor 25B/934 Private John Williams
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) F coy
25B/1459 Private Robert Edward Cole 2-24/2453 Private William Cooper 25B/1065 Private James Ruck29
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) G coy
25B/623 Sergeant Robert Maxfield 25B/906 Private John Connolly 25B 1410 Private William Partridge
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) H coy
25B/954 Private Thomas Evans30
Royal Artillery N Battery 5th Brigade
458 Bombardier Thomas Lewis 2076 Wheeler John Cantwell artillery storeman 1643 Gunner Abraham Evans 2077 Gunner Arthur Howard
Royal Engineers 5th (Field) coy
Lieutenant John Rouse Merriott Chard 12046 Driver Charles John Robson
2nd battalion, 3rd (East Kent) Regiment
2260 Sergeant Frederick Augustus Millne
90th (Perthshire Volunteers, Light Infantry) Regiment
1123 Corporal James Graham31
General Staff Corps
1566 Colour-Sergeant George William Mabin
Army Service Corps
24692 Second Corporal Francis Attwood
Army Hospital Corps
3169 Corporal Rowland Herbert Miller 3037 Private Thomas Levi Luddington 3359 Private Michael McMahon
Army Medical Department
Surgeon James Henry Reynolds B.A., M.B., Ch.B.
Army Commissariat and Transport Department
Assistant Commissary Walter Alphonsus Dunne Acting Assistant Commissary James Langley Dalton (civilian attachment) Acting Storekeeper Louis Alexander Byrne (civilian attachment)
Natal Mounted Police
219 Trooper Robert Shedden St. John Green 280 Trooper Sydney H. Hunter 271 Trooper Henry Lugg
1st battalion, 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent
Lieutenant Gert Wilhelm Adendorff Corporal Jesse Handcock Mayor Private (African) name unknown (a native of Mkungo’s isiGqoza)
2nd battalion, 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent
Corporal William Anderson Corporal William Doughty Corporal Carl Scammell Corporal Ferdnand Christian Schiess32 Corporal John Wilson33
Civilians
Acting Chaplain to the Volunteers George Smith34 Mr. William Pearse (servant to Surg. Reynolds) Mr. A. Daniels (ferryman)
TOTAL 155
Possible European Participants:
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) B coy
2-24/1697 Private James Dick35 25B/879 Private Michael Tobin36
TOTAL 2 |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:29 pm | |
| Julian, Thank you wow.
There are a few extra names on there than on previous list I have seen. Lance Sergeant James Taylor especially. Sure I have noticed indications somewhere of his presence. He is not on others lists on the forum that I have found, and I have only ever seen Joseph Bromwich, never a Charles.
I don't mean to be critical, but is there two L's in Millne? Is Mr S Daniels Yanky Dan?
Thanks once again, I will refer to this from now on. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Mon Oct 03, 2022 9:41 am | |
| Eddie Taylor is in the 'Chard' Roll. the Bourne Roll (albeit as a corporal), the Waters Roll, and the Dunbar Address. Jos. Bromwich is in the 'Chard' Roll, the Bourne Amended Roll (albeit as Bromatch), the Waters Roll, and the Dunbar Address. I cannot think of any circumstances under which these two men would be omitted from any list, deliberately or otherwise. There are two 'l's in Millne. Daniels was referred to as Yankee Dan in one report. I'm unsure where you have got the S from as his initial. I know of no source for this. If you have come across this yourself in research, I'd be pleased to know the provenance. If it's taken from some on-line list, e-mail the compiler and ask if he would be kind enough to supply you with the evidence for it.
|
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:41 am | |
| Thank you Julian.
I have said I will refer to your list above from now on, and take your advice on the other lists on the forum. Some having only one Bromwich and no LSgt Taylor as mentioned. I have to obtain the relevant rolls you have mentioned, although none have been found to be correct, but are most certainly going to be a good guide.
No "S' that is the result of my rather large fingers getting in the way. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:08 pm | |
| Eddie Of course no Roll is 100% accurate. There was an original Chard Roll, supposedly (but now lost), on which the Waters Roll, the Smith Roll, the 'Chard' Roll and the Fine Arts Roll were all based and then there is Bourne's Roll which he later amended. Both were by men who were there. Dunbar's Address is something else, though also useful. Then there are the men's accounts which name individuals and their letters home. Your 'S' error is noteworthy and shows how easy it is for those other compilers to have made a spelling, name, or rank error or an omission. It's that easy. Holme's book gives a good intro to the problems of working with the various rolls.
Last edited by Julian Whybra on Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:21 pm | |
| Thank you Julian.
Yes errors are made quite easily, but as I mentioned there is another website that also does not include LSgt Taylor or Bromwich 2, and like you said I need to challenge them as to the reason they are not included.
I will be purchasing some publications shortly. |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Julian Whybra
Posts : 4087 Join date : 2011-09-12 Location : Billericay, Essex
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:02 pm | |
| Eddie Websites can be very anonymous at times. However, any list will have had a compiler. You'll need to phrase your question carefully. It's more usual to be asking for the evidence as to why a person was included in a list. Asking why someone was left off a list almost implies negligence! |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Eddie
Posts : 801 Join date : 2022-07-13 Age : 65 Location : Newport Wales
![Native of Tonypandy Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Native of Tonypandy Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:24 pm | |
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| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | | Native of Tonypandy | |
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