Native of Tonypandy

In his letter published in The Western Mail Saturday, March 29th 1879, Thomas Evans writes home to his wife to Inform her that he was not amongst the men killed on 22 January 1879.
He goes on to informs her he was fighting at The defence of Rorke's Drift. He says they set fire to the hospital and I was in the midst of this fight and about 100 of us killed about 600 of the enemy with only loss of 15 men among ourselves.

I only see a Frederick Evans and a Abraham Evans as defenders of Rorke's Drift on the roll.
Is Thomas Evans one of the above or has he been deemed to be elsewhere?

Could this be one of the 3 or 4 "possible" defenders Julian has mentioned in the past?

Full letter translated:

Dear wife - I send you these few lines to inform you that I was not among the unfortunate men belonging to our regiment who were killed on the 22nd of this month.
The camp was left in charge of some 850 privates and officers, and they were out (Allan) they were attacked and all killed excepting 20. The Zulus crossed into Natal and attacked another station (goraaf arall) ; but another company of our regiment poured out (geltwng Allan); such fire against them that they failed to force an entrance, and when they saw what number of men among them was being killed they set fire to the hospital and then retreated.
I was in the midst of this fight and about 100 of us killed about 600 of the enemy with a loss of 15 men among ourselves.
On the following morning, what remained of our regiment came to us, and we are now waiting for others to come and take our place, because we have neither clothes not anything else.
I do not suppose we shall go to the battlefield again, because our companies are so cut up that it will be hardly possible to form us into a Regiment (catrawd). I shall write again when that is possible, and will give you full particulars your affectionate husband,
                                          Thomas Evans.

The Western Mail Saturday 29 March 1879
Sent from Rorke's Drift 28 January 1879.

I have reposted this as I do not see a Thomas Evans on the list of Defenders, yet he has been mentioned as a defender in the past. Can anyone tell me why he is not on the list?


25B/954 Pte Thomas Evans H Company 2/24th

Eddie,

Have you read assessment Norman Holme's The Noble 24th - pages 304-307? I suspect that Julian Whybra may have some views on this.

An old thread (Heading: 25B/953 Pte Frederick Evans, Mon, Jan 13 2014, 11:29am) Julian says that 25B/954 Thomas Evans H Company 2/24th is a defender.

An old thread ( 24th Survivors, Sun, Jul 14, 2013, 11:25pm) Littlehand referred to a letter written by Frederick Evans to his wife in Tonypandy. The letter above is also written to Thomas Evans wife in Tonypandy, this also translated from Welsh. Could Littlehand have got the letter  mixed up with the wrong Evans, having at the time thought Frederick Evans was the man who alerted the Drift, later rectified. (No offence LH, long time ago).
The thread concerns which Evans were present at the defence.

Eddie
This is complicated so despite not feeling very well I'll try to unpick it for you.

Norman Holme (4) concluded mistakenly that the Isandhlwana fugitive “of the Mounted Infantry, named Evans” (5) who warned Rorke’s Drift was 25B/953 Pte. Frederick Evans H coy 2/24th. However, he was not in the I.M.I. Holme confused him with 45/726 Pte. Edward Evans 2/3rd Regt. who was IMI and did escape from Isandhlwana (6) and, by his own account, (7) warned the Drift. Articles in 1990 (8) and later (9) referred to this and Holme acknowledged it without revising his text.
The name “Pte. Evans H coy” did appear in the ‘Chard’ Roll of Rorke’s Drift Defenders, in Bourne’s Amended Roll, and “Frederick Evans” appeared in Dunbar’s Roll by dint of which he received a copy of the Address by the Mayor of Durban. This time Holme confused Frederick with a genuine Defender and possible hospital patient, 25B/954 Pte. Thomas Evans H coy 2/24th. Holme states erroneously that Frederick Evans wrote a letter home in Welsh to his wife in Tonypandy. This letter, dated 28th January 1879, was in fact written by 25B/954 Pte. Thomas Evans, 2/24th in which he states he was at Rorke’s Drift. (10)
In fact Frederick Evans was with Chelmsford’s Reconnaissance.(11)

I hope that's all clear:
Pte. Edward Evans IMI 2/3 - genuine Isandhlwana who rode to warn the RD but did not stay.
Pte. Thomas Evans H coy 2/24 - genuine RD defender and possible hospital patient
Pte. Frederick Evans H coy 2/24- with LC's Reconnaissance on the Mangeni.

Footnotes
4 Holme, The Silver Wreath, (London, 1979), p. 69; and The Noble 24th, (London, 1999), pp. 131 and 304-5. The last same erroneous passage appears verbatim as an essay in Greaves, A., Redcoats and Zulus, (London, 2005) without any reference to subsequent research or articles.
5 Hitch, 25B 1362 Private Frederick, Letter, The Cambrian, 13th June 1879. Several others wrote of Evans’s arrival including Private Waters, Corporal Lyons, and Lieutenant Chard.
6 McToy, Edward D., A Brief History of the 13th Regiment (P.A.L.I.) in South Africa During the Transvaal and Zulu Difficulties 1877-8-9, (Devonport, 1880), pp. 36-7.
7 Evans, 45/726 Private Edward, Letter in the Montgomeryshire Express, 1st April 1879.
8 Whybra, Julian, The 1st Squadron, Imperial Mounted Infantry 1877-1879, Soldiers of the Queen [SOTQ], Issue 58/59, January 1990.
9 Whybra, Julian, More Noble 24th, SOTQ, (Issue 108, March 2002), revised in Studies in the Zulu War 1879: II, (Writtle, 2013, 2nd ed. 2014), pp. 19-25.
10 English translation published in South Wales Daily Telegram, 28th March, 1879.
11 Evans, 25B/953 Private Frederick, Letter to his uncle and aunt 27th July 1879, Pontypool Free Press, 13th September 1879.

Julian.

If you are not feeling to well you should have replied again later, so I sincerely thank you for all that information and hope you get well soon.

I understood previously that Edward Evans escaped Isandlwana and warned Rorke's Drift and rode on. I understood, and had read the letters of the men mentioned, indicating he had done so.
What I didn't understand was where Thomas Evans fitted in, after reading his letter, and not seeing him listed on any of the rolls. I still can't find him listed on any roll on this forum, only Abraham and Frederick Evans are listed.
If, as you say Frederick was out with LC's reconnaissance why is he on all the rolls as a defender and Thomas is not?
Is it because it cannot be changed, and that it can only be referred to in later publications?

Eddie
Don't look at the Rolls on this forum.
Look at the original rolls.
The 'Chard' Roll lists Pte. Evans with no mention of his initial or number just his coy.
The Bourne Amended Roll lists him in the same way.
The Waters Roll lists him in the same way.
There was therefore definitely a Pte. Evans from H coy present at RD.
The key elements are the letters from Thomas Evans H coy describing his participation at RD and Frederick Evans H coy describing his return with LC's Reconnaissance.  Frederick would hardly have written a letter home in this way if HAD been at RD.
The Dunbar list is not a Roll but a scroll of the 24th men to whom an address and a bible were given and there were omissions.  It does list 'Frederick Evans' but this can only be a typo for Thomas.  I do not know whether Thomas was present and received the copy of the address/bible or whether Frederick was and received them error.  Frederick, I should state emphatically, was NOT listed on any Roll.

Eddie
I haven't looked at any of the Rolls typed into the pages of this forum so cannot vouch for the accuracy of their transcriptions. I only ever work with originals. I realize that not everyone has access to them or good photocopies of them. However...
You can find good reproductions of the original 'Chard' Roll, Bourne Roll, and Bourne Amended Roll in the Silver Wreath by Norman Holme. Unfortunately, they are not ALL reproduced in his update of it: The Noble 24th.
The Waters Roll - The Times 10.6.1879 - is reproduced on pp. 70-1 of my Studies in the Zulu War vol. II.
I am feeling a little better today but still ache and feel drained - thanks for your good wishes. Another day and I'll be back to normal.

P.S. A copy of the Dunbar Roll also appears in The Silver Wreath.

Thank you Julian, good to know your feeling a little better.

I hope you don't feel I'm being awkward here but even other Zulu war sites have Frederick Evans as a defender at Rorke's Drift, not Thomas Evans. Even lists produced on here by well known historians have Frederick and not Thomas as a defender.
I am sure you are correct, just by reading the letter I knew when it was linked with Frederick it was wrong.

Eddie
Of course I don't think you're being awkward.  It's perfectly natural that you should raise this point.
Other sites may well have lists of defenders on them...but of individuals' own creation...they are not providing any sources for what they are publishing.
These other sites are incorrect in stating Fred. Evans was at RD and in omitting Thomas Evans.  I have quoted the first-hand evidence by Fred. and Thomas themselves to prove this.  Perhaps you should raise your question on those sites and ask those individuals to justify Fred. and Thomas's inclusion and exclusion respectively.  The answers you get will be enlightening.
Neither am I responsible for what other 'well-known' historians on this site have written in their lists.  'Well-known' does not mean they have a monopoly on the truth, as most of us on this site realize.  Historians, well-known or otherwise, make mistakes.  But I also realize that I do not have a monopoly on the truth.  So, I suggest that where those lists of defenders on this forum have the compiler's name attached, you ask them in similar vein to justify the inclusion/exclusion of Fred. and Thomas.
I am not out to persuade you one way or the other.  You're free to believe anything you like.  I can only deal with the evidence (documentation and first-hand accounts by those involved) available.

Eddie
I should also say that historians are allowed to change their minds in the light of newly-found evidence.  That's one of the reasons why I produce updated editions of England's Sons.
Perhaps those other compilers you mention haven't bothered to update their lists or have taken their lists from a list compiled in the 1990s, or haven't ever read the letters of Fred. and Thomas Evans.  The explanation you're seeking might be as simple as that.
There was a line from the film Waterloo:  "A good soldier knows how to defend a hopeless position".  Well, a good historian knows how to abandon one.  Being seen to be right is not important, the truth is.

Eddie
You will have noticed that the letter you referenced in your first post on this thread is in fact a re-publication of an earlier letter in the South Wales Daily Telegram, 28th March, 1879.

Julian

I totally agree with all you have said.
Isn't it strange that your evidence, mentioned above, is clearly understood, yet Thomas has still not been included by many, particular taking into account the letters indicating their whereabouts.

I do understand that Thomas H company has been deemed to be the Evans with no Christian name on the original rolls. Original rolls you mentioned can obviously not be altered, however I do believe you have included him as a defender in other publications as mentioned.

It would be interesting to hear others views on here now, and why his name is not included on lists in these forums.

Cheers Eddie

Yes Julian I have noted the letter in the south Wales Daily Telegram, and that it was translated from Welsh.

Eddie
"Original rolls you mentioned can obviously not be altered, however I do believe you have included him [Thomas] as a defender in other publications as mentioned."

Thomas is included as a defender in my England's Sons 9th edition 2020 and my position has not changed. In the 1st edition 2004 I believe I had both Frederick and Thomas (but annotated with ?) as letters had not yet been discovered. I have forgotten when that discovery was but the following edition reflected it: Thomas was included, Frederick was not. The editing was not foolproof and Frederick's name was left on one page by accident but has since been removed.

"It would be interesting to hear others views on here now, and why his name is not included on lists in these forums."

As I said, ask them direct. Use the pm facility if privacy is preferred. I'm sure that in most cases it will simply have been a case of not bothering, not updating, or not knowing. I'm not sure what policy ADMIN holds on the accuracy of lists placed in the public domain as freely-available information on the Forum.

Eddie
For what it's worth, here is the current list of defenders, less footnotes, from my current list (i.e. what will be included on the 10th edition, probably 2025):

1st battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire)2
 
                       25B/56     Sergeant                      Edward                   Wilson       G coy prisoner escort
                       25B/135   Private                         William                  Beckett      A coy
                       25B/568   Private                         Patrick                    Desmond   G coy prisoner escort
                       1-24/1861 Private                        William                  Horrigan    G coy
                     25B/295   Private                         David                     Jenkins3        G coy prisoner escort
                       25B/841   Private                         James Edmund      Jenkins       D coy
                       25B/625   Private                         Edward                  Nicholas     D coy prisoner escort (?)
                       25B/372   Private                         Thomas                  Payton        G coy prisoner escort
                       1-24/1542 Private                        William                  Roy            E coy  prisoner escort
                       25B/104    Private                        Henry                     Turner        H coy storeman
                       1-24/447   Private                        John                        Waters        E coy hospital orderly

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) B coy

                                        Lieutenant                   Gonville                 Bromhead (o/c B coy)
                       2-24/2459 Colour-Sergeant         Frank                      Bourne
                       25B/81     Sergeant                      Henry                     Gallagher
                       2-24/1387 Sergeant                     George                    Smith
                       2-24/735   Sergeant                     Joseph Lenford       Windridge
                       25B/1328  Lance-Sergeant         Thomas                   Williams    
                     2-24/1240 Corporal                    William Wilson      Allen4
                     2-24/582   Corporal                    John Barker             French5
                       2-24/2389 Corporal                    John                         Key *      
                       25B/1112 Corporal                     John Jeremiah Augustus Lyons
                     25B/849   Corporal                     Alfred                     Saxty6
                       25B/1287 Lance-Corporal          William Henry       Bessell
                       25B/1282 Lance-Corporal          William                  Halley
                       2-24/2067 Drummer                    Patrick                   Hayes    
                       2-24/2381 Drummer                    James                     Keefe
                       2-24/913   Private                        James                     Ashton
                       25B/1381  Private                       Thomas                   Barry
                       25B/918    Private                       William                   Bennett
                       2-24/2427 Private                        John                        Bly
                     2-24/981   Private                        Charles                   Bromwich7
                     25B/1524  Private                        Joseph                    Bromwich8
                       25B/1184  Private                       Thomas                   Buckley
                       25B/1220  Private                       Thomas F.               Burke      
                       2-24/2350 Private                        James                      Bushe
                       25B/1181  Private                       William Henry        Camp
                       25B/1241  Private                       Thomas                   Chester
                       25B/755    Private                       Thomas                   Clayton
                       25B/801    Private                       Thomas                   Cole          
                       25B/1396  Private                       Thomas                   Collins
                       2-24/2310  Private                       Anthony                 Connors
                       2-24/1323  Private                       Timothy                 Connors
                       25B/470    Private                        George                   Davies
                       25B/1363  Private                        William Henry       Davis
                       25B/1178  Private                        Thomas                  Daw
                     25B/1467  Private                        George                   Deacon9
                       25B/1357  Private                        Michael                  Deane
                     2-24/1634  Private                       William                  Dicks10
                       25B/971    Private                        Thomas                  Driscoll
                       25B/1421  Private                        James                     Dunbar
                     25B/972    Private                        George                   Edwards11
                       25B/969    Private                        John                      Fagan
                       2-24/2429  Private                         Edward                 Gee
                     25B/798     Private                        James                    Hagan12
                       25B/1062   Private                        John                      Harris
                       25B/1362   Private                        Frederick               Hitch    
                       25B/1373   Private                        Alfred Henry         Hook
                       25B/1061   Private                        John Samuel          Jobbins
                     25B/1428   Private                        Evan                      Jones13
                     25B/970     Private                        John                       Jones14 *                        
                       25B/1179   Private                        John                       Jones
                       25B/716     Private                        Robert                    Jones
                       2-24/593     Private                       William                  Jones
                       2-24/2437   Private                        Peter                      Judge
                     25B/972      Private                       Patrick                   Kears15
                       25B/1386    Private                       Michael                 Kiley
                     25B/963      Private                       David                     Lewis16 *                        
                       2-24/1528   Private                       Henry                     Lines
                       25B/1409    Private                       David                     Lloyd
                       25B/1176    Private                       Thomas                  Lockhart
                       25B/1304    Private                       Joshua                    Lodge
                       25B/942      Private                       Thomas Michael    Lynch *
                       25B/964      Private                        James                     Marshall
                       25B/756      Private                        Henry Herbert        Martin
                     25B/1284    Private                        Charles                   Mason17
                     2-24/1527    Private                        Michael                  Minehan18
                       25B/968       Private                        Thomas John         Moffatt
                       25B/1342     Private                        Augustus                Morris
                       25B/525       Private                        Frederick                Morris
                       25B/1371     Private                        Thomas                  Morrison
                       25B/662       Private                        John                       Murphy
                     25B/1279     Private                        William                 Neville19
                       25B/1257     Private                        Robert                    Norris
                     25B/1480     Private                        William                  Osborne20
                       25B/1399     Private                        Samuel                   Parry
                       25B/1186     Private                        Samuel                   Pitt
                     25B/1286     Private                        Thomas                  Robinson21
                     25B/1185     Private                        Edward                  Savage22
                       2-24/1618    Private                        George                  Shearman
                       2/24/914      Private                        John                       Shergold
                       25B/1005     Private                        John                       Smith
                       25B/777       Private                        Thomas Edward    Stevens
                       2-24/1812    Private                       William                  Tasker
                       25B/973       Private                       Frederick               Taylor
                       25B/889       Private                       Thomas                  Taylor
                     25B/1280     Private                      John                        Thomas23
                       25B/1394     Private                      John                        Thompson
                     25B/641       Private                      Patrick                    Tobin24
                       25B/1281     Private                      William John          Todd
                       25B/1315     Private                      Robert                     Tongue
                       25B/1497     Private                      John                        Wall
                     2-24/977      Private                      Alfred                     Whitton25
                       25B/1187     Private                      William                   Wilcox
                     25B/1395     Private                      John                        Williams26
                       25B/1398     Private                      Joseph                     Williams
                     25B/1316     Private                      Caleb                      Wood27

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) A coy

                       2-24/2383    Drummer                   John                        Meehan
                       2-24/1441    Private                       John                        Lyons
                       2-24/1731    Private                      John                         Manley
                       25B/1051     Private                      John                         Scanlon
                       2-24/2404    Private                      Arthur                      Sears      
 
2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) D coy

                       2-24/1713    Drummer                  Patrick                     Galgey
                       25B/987       Private                      Robert                     Adams      
                     25B/1335     Private                      James                      Chick28        
                       2-24/1769    Private                      Garret Henry           Hayden    

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) E coy

                       25B/82         Lance-Sergeant        James                      Taylor  
                       25B/934       Private                      John                        Williams

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) F coy

                       25B/1459     Private                      Robert Edward        Cole      
                       2-24/2453    Private                      William                   Cooper        
                     25B/1065     Private                      James                      Ruck29

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) G coy

                       25B/623      Sergeant                     Robert                    Maxfield
                       25B/906      Private                        John                       Connolly  
                       25B 1410    Private                        William                  Partridge  

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) H coy

                       25B/954      Private                        Thomas                  Evans30

Royal Artillery N Battery 5th Brigade

                       458             Bombardier                 Thomas                  Lewis
                       2076           Wheeler                       John                       Cantwell       artillery storeman
                       1643           Gunner                        Abraham                Evans
                       2077           Gunner                        Arthur                    Howard

Royal Engineers 5th (Field) coy

                                          Lieutenant                   John Rouse Merriott Chard
                       12046         Driver                         Charles John          Robson

2nd battalion, 3rd (East Kent) Regiment

                       2260           Sergeant                     Frederick Augustus Millne

90th (Perthshire Volunteers, Light Infantry) Regiment

                       1123           Corporal                     James                     Graham31

General Staff Corps

                       1566           Colour-Sergeant         George William      Mabin

Army Service Corps

                       24692         Second Corporal         Francis                    Attwood

Army Hospital Corps

                       3169           Corporal                      Rowland Herbert   Miller
                       3037           Private                         Thomas Levi          Luddington
                       3359           Private                         Michael                  McMahon

Army Medical Department

                                         Surgeon                        James Henry           Reynolds B.A., M.B., Ch.B.

Army Commissariat and Transport Department

                                         Assistant Commissary Walter Alphonsus   Dunne
                                         Acting Assistant
                                         Commissary                 James Langley        Dalton (civilian attachment)
                                         Acting Storekeeper      Louis Alexander     Byrne (civilian attachment)

Natal Mounted Police

                       219            Trooper                        Robert Shedden St. John Green  
                       280            Trooper                        Sydney H.               Hunter
                       271            Trooper                        Henry                      Lugg

1st battalion, 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

                                         Lieutenant                    Gert Wilhelm         Adendorff
                                         Corporal                       Jesse Handcock      Mayor
                                         Private (African)          name unknown (a native of Mkungo’s isiGqoza)

2nd battalion, 3rd Regiment Natal Native Contingent

                                         Corporal                       William                  Anderson
                                         Corporal                       William                  Doughty    
                                         Corporal                       Carl                        Scammell
                                     Corporal                       Ferdnand Christian Schiess32
                                     Corporal                       John                       Wilson33

Civilians

                                         Acting Chaplain to
                                         the Volunteers          George                  Smith34
                                         Mr.                                William                 Pearse (servant to Surg. Reynolds)
                                         Mr.                                A.                          Daniels (ferryman)

TOTAL                                                                                                     155

Possible European Participants:

2nd battalion, 24th Regiment (2nd Warwickshire) B coy

                     2-24/1697 Private                          James                     Dick35
                     25B/879    Private                          Michael                 Tobin36

TOTAL                                                                                                        2

Julian, Thank you wow.

There are a few extra names on there than on previous list I have seen. Lance Sergeant James Taylor especially. Sure I have noticed indications somewhere of his presence. He is not on others lists on the forum that I have found, and I have only ever seen Joseph Bromwich, never a Charles.

I don't mean to be critical,  but is there two L's in Millne?
Is Mr S Daniels Yanky Dan?

Thanks once again, I will refer to this from now on.

Eddie
Taylor is in the 'Chard' Roll. the Bourne Roll (albeit as a corporal), the Waters Roll, and the Dunbar Address.
Jos. Bromwich is in the 'Chard' Roll, the Bourne Amended Roll (albeit as Bromatch), the Waters Roll, and the Dunbar Address.
I cannot think of any circumstances under which these two men would be omitted from any list, deliberately or otherwise.
There are two 'l's in Millne.
Daniels was referred to as Yankee Dan in one report. I'm unsure where you have got the S from as his initial. I know of no source for this. If you have come across this yourself in research, I'd be pleased to know the provenance. If it's taken from some on-line list, e-mail the compiler and ask if he would be kind enough to supply you with the evidence for it.

Thank you Julian.

I have said I will refer to your list above from now on, and take your advice on the other lists on the forum. Some having only one Bromwich and no LSgt Taylor as mentioned.
I have to obtain the relevant rolls you have mentioned, although none have been found to be correct, but are most certainly going to be a good guide.

No "S' that is the result of my rather large fingers getting in the way.

Eddie
Of course no Roll is 100% accurate.  There was an original Chard Roll, supposedly (but now lost), on which the Waters Roll, the Smith Roll, the 'Chard' Roll and the Fine Arts Roll were all based and then there is Bourne's Roll which he later amended.  Both were by men who were there. Dunbar's Address is something else, though also useful.
Then there are the men's accounts which name individuals and their letters home.
Your 'S' error is noteworthy and shows how easy it is for those other compilers to have made a spelling, name, or rank error or an omission.  It's that easy.
Holme's book gives a good intro to the problems of working with the various rolls.

Thank you Julian.

Yes errors are made quite easily, but as I mentioned there is another website that also does not include LSgt Taylor or Bromwich 2, and like you said I need to challenge them as to the reason they are not included.

I will be purchasing some publications shortly.

Eddie
Websites can be very anonymous at times. However, any list will have had a compiler. You'll need to phrase your question carefully. It's more usual to be asking for the evidence as to why a person was included in a list. Asking why someone was left off a list almost implies negligence!

Cheers Julian.