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 A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?

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Danny1960
Julian Whybra
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Hobbes

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A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  Empty
PostSubject: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyThu Aug 08, 2024 9:19 pm

I've read the following romantic tale, about which I have many doubts, but still found it worthy to be shared here, and I would like to hear your opinions about it.
So, according to a Zulu legend, when the majority of the British forces at Isandlwana were already slaughtered, Younghusband's company ran out of ammo, and was getting ready for their famous last attack. They had already caused painful losses among the Zulus, who were now turning their attention to them, as they were the only remaining enemy; the redcoats, however, did not attack immediately, but were shaking hands with each other and their commander, saying goodbye. Upon seeing this, Ntshingwayo kaMahole halted his warriors, to let the British finish their last rituals, out of respect for their stoic bravery. Once they were done, the fighting resumed, Younghusband's men were surrounded and all killed.
That's the story, although I read it a while ago and can't remember the exact source, I will try to quote it as soon as I am able to find it. It just stuck with me because of how absurd it sounded, for these reasons:
1. First of all, how could a single person, even a commander, stop an entire army at once from attacking the enemy, amid all the confusion, noise, and smoke of the battle?
2. Why would the warriors, most of them in basically berserker mode, high on drugs, about to win their nation's greatest victory, "seeing only red" as one of them said himself, heed to this command?
3. The "hand-shakings" done by the entire squadron, thanking each other for their time together, etc. sound like they are just made up by Victorian propaganda. I am not saying none of them could have done that, but the entire squadron standing up and doing that, with the Zulus approaching and finishing off the rest of their countrymen below sounds very unlikely.
They say that the only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible, so I do not 100% exclude the possibility that this event took place in some way, shape or form. Even it was nothing like the romanticised version described above.
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90th

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PostSubject: A story regarding Younghusband's Charge    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 09, 2024 4:55 am

Hi Hobbes
Yes I don't go along with the Zulus stopping fighting while the remnants of C Company stopped to shake hands , quite possibly some did so , that's probably more to the point . I also don't believe the Zulu's were all ' high ' on drugs , the attack began after they were discovered so they certainly never had time to be fully Doctored , they were looking to attack on the 23rd due the phase of the moon . There's no doubt that what the Zulu's had to contend with as they attacked the camp certainly spurred them on , they were in no mood for niceties ! .
90th
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 09, 2024 8:48 am

Neither do I go along with the remark that the Zulus were high on drugs. Evidence please!
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Hobbes

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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 09, 2024 10:51 am

Julian Whybra wrote:
Neither do I go along with the remark that the Zulus were high on drugs.  Evidence please!
You're both right, I should have stated it is not a proven fact. I've read numerous articles mentioning dagga, mushrooms, pot, medicated beers, etc. being used (if not before the battle, then before their forced march to take them there, which was an almost inhuman feat of perseverance, perhaps helped by these substances), although so far no scholarly work I have read mentions them in the context of Isandlwana. I've come to the conclusion that their effect should have been much more psychological than physiological, based on superstitious beliefs.
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 09, 2024 3:03 pm

There was a 'ritual' time when such substances were taken before a battle.
Because the attack materialized before it was supposed to have done, that 'ritual time' was missed and therefore the Zulus had to rely on personal raw courage.
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Danny1960

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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptySat Aug 10, 2024 4:09 pm

The shaking hands bit us a load of tosh, in the middle of a battle that those men could see they were losing, do you think they would have had the time or inclination to shake hands….i have read that shepstone and his men were making a last desperate charge to seek the relative cover of some waggons
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptySat Aug 10, 2024 5:53 pm

Danny
It does seem unlikely I admit. The story does of course come from the Zulus, a strange thing to say if not true. It might have occurred with Younghusband and the few men around him, especially if they'd retreated up the side of Isandhlwana to a 'bastion' position where they could take stock for a few seconds. The past is a different country; they do things differently there.
As for Shepstone, I don't think I've ever seen the remark you made recorded in any account, though my memory might have failed me. Do you happen to recall where you read it and whether it was a primary source or not?
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90th

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PostSubject: A story regarding Younghusband's charge , Hearsay or a possibility ?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyMon Aug 12, 2024 6:07 am

Hi Julian
I think Danny has confused Shepstone with Younghusband ? , I've never heard of Shepstone attempting a charge , Younghusband was I believe attempting to reach the Wagons , the Zulu's mentioned Younghusband's men shaking hands , otherwise why would it be mentioned ? , as I posted earlier it may've been several of them , I doubt the fighting stopped while this happened , those shaking hands may well have had no ammunition left ? , which is I believe the reason for them attempting to get to the wagons , also a quick shake of the hand takes a couple of seconds ! .
90th
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyMon Aug 12, 2024 8:38 am

90th
Yes, we tend to forget that shaking hands in the past was a much more common everyday experience than it is today. Especially in the Victorian period. And because WE no longer do it as a matter of course, we assume that it has always been so.
In the 70s I had a fellowship at a Polish university and it was the custom then on meeting a woman or teenaged girl to bow your head and kiss her hand - an daily occurrence. The girl would give a slight curtsey. Quaint but sincere. On returning nearly 50 years later, the custom is as rare as hen's teeth although I have noticed my Polish daughter-in-law curtsey when introduced to someone for the first time.
I suspect that if the Younghusband 'event' did take place, it was a sort of Farewell, Good Luck, God be with you, and Nice knowing you, all rolled into one.
I try now to shake hands whenever appropriate simply because it'd be a shame to let the custom disappear in favour of something less worthy.
Re Danny and Shepstone, I expect you're right, unless Danny knows otherwise?
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyTue Aug 13, 2024 4:26 pm

I have read an argument that the 'shaking of hands' was the actual redistribution of the few last rounds of the Martini ammo.

Maybe, (and it is maybe) one or two close friends shook hands which the Zulus picked up on and exaggerated to 'everyone'

Perhaps shaking hands had been witnessed by the some Zulus (in other situations, pre war) and was seen as something the 'British did'
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyTue Aug 13, 2024 5:29 pm

A fair point! The redistribution of ammo!
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Murphysdad




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 11:10 am

I tend myself to believe the 'shaking hands' episode, was actually passing out the last rounds of ammunition, and not some melodramatic episode, which is why they charged towards the wagons. Though i also think, it was to try to allow some of the men, possibly wounded to try to escape around the hill, though any who did probably ended up with Shepstones stand.
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Peter35th




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 12:20 pm

There is, of course, a similar story about the Shangani Patrol 14 years later in the Matabele War - although they were also reported to have sung the National Anthem ! As Julian comments, we sometimes forget today how common shaking hands was in that period.
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 2:49 pm

An extract from Reginald Younghusband’s entry in Mackinnon & Shadbolt’s The South African Campaign of 1879, first published in 1880:
A bandsman of the 24th Regiment, who escaped from the massacre, reported that he saw him making a desperate stand at the last.
With three men of his company he turned a waggon into a rifle-pit, and defended it as long as his ammunition lasted. When the last cartridge was fired, Captain Younghusband shook hands with his men, and then made a desperate attempt to cut his way through the encircling horde of the savage foe.


So rather than a Zulu source the alleged source is a surviving Bandsman of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment.  If that is the case I would conclude that there can only be one possibility as to the identity of this alleged witness.

JY
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 3:28 pm

John
Why not two? Bickley or Wilson?
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John Young

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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 3:40 pm

Julian,

I am going for “the all seeing eye” of Bickley given what he allegedly saw.

JY
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SRB1965

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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 4:38 pm

It seems that Wilson left after Bickers - he met him about 50 or 100 yards on the Natal bank - of course route and travel speed may influence this.

Both started off on foot before finding a horse, down the trail.

Bickley left soon after Mel and Wilson soon after Gamble (?)

Bickley mentions the RD being blocked.

Any definitive idea of when they left in relation to Younghusands waggon fight?
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Julian Whybra




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PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 5:15 pm

Now that's the six million dollar question!
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SRB1965

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A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptyFri Aug 16, 2024 6:36 pm

Of course, I believe there is a Zulu account of a waggon defender, which has been associated with Capt Y - though the Zulu was not sure if he was an officer or not.
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Danny1960

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A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  Empty
PostSubject: Re: A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?    A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?  EmptySun Aug 18, 2024 5:48 pm

Julian Whybra wrote:
Danny
It does seem unlikely I admit.  The story does of course come from the Zulus, a strange thing to say if not true.  It might have occurred with Younghusband and the few men around him, especially if they'd retreated up the side of Isandhlwana to a 'bastion' position where they could take stock for a few seconds.  The past is a different country; they do things differently there.
As for Shepstone, I don't think I've ever seen the remark you made recorded in any account, though my memory might have failed me.  Do you happen to recall where you read it and whether it was a primary source or not?

I will browse through my books and documents and see if I can find the piece I’m quoting regarding a charge to try to get to the wagons
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A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility?
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