Coghill and Melvill issue

Beg your pardon ymob, apologies for that.

That should have been directed at Springbok. (Over to youSpringbok).

Not being disrespectful but I think these's are the wrong reason for being awarded the V.C

Maybe the posthumously awards should never have been allowed.


THE BOY CORNWELL.

HL Deb 26 July 1916 vol 22 cc920-1 920
LORD BERESFORD rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether it is proposed to award the Victoria Cross posthumously to John Travers Cornwell, late Boy, 1st Class, of H.M.S. "Chester."

The noble and gallant Lord said: My Lords, this is a very important question. There must have been hundreds of similar cases to that of the boy Cornwell in the late action, but the fact that the Admiral specially mentioned this case shows that in his mind it was a special instance of heroic conduct. In asking that the family of this boy should receive the Victoria Cross I am not asking for anything which has not been done before. Only a few years since honours were posthumously awarded in six cases to the living representatives of officers and men who had distinguished themselves years ago. The families of a private and an ensign as far back as the Mutiny of 1859 received the Victoria Cross. A few years ago the families of Lieutenants Melville and Coghill, who saved the Colours at Isandlwanha in 1879, were awarded the same honour. Again in the case of Trooper Baxter, of the Bulawayo Field Force in 1897, the family were awarded the honour. Lieutenant MacLean won the Victoria 921 Cross at Upper Swat in 1897, and Lieutenant Roberts, the only son of Lord Roberts, won the Victoria Gross in the South African War; and these Crosses were given to the families.

There are singularly few cases in the Navy where a man can get the Victoria Cross. Up to now nearly all the Victoria Crosses secured by the Navy have been won by heroic conduct when serving on shore with the Army. In peace time almost every week in the Navy officers and men do things that merit any honour that could be paid to them, particularly in the engine-room department. A steam pipe may burst or something happen that requires instant action and readiness of resource, and the man who has to undertake the duty often knows that it is almost certain death to himself. Here is a case in point. I saw in the Press that quite lately a young lieutenant was for two days clearing the mines from under the bottom of the "UC 5," which is now to be seen by the public Why keep that man's name anonymous? His was one of the most gallant actions that could possibly be conceived. I dare say this officer was rewarded. But why keep his name from the public? The publication of his name would be an encouragement to himself and only fair to his family. I submit that the names of the men who perform these gallant deeds should be known to their country.

To turn back to the case of the boy Cornwell,

Quote :

I ask your Lordships to consider what the effect would be on our schools if this boy was properly honoured by his family receiving the Victoria Cross

. An honour paid to Cornwell's memory would be an example to the boys of the Empire at their most susceptible age. It would encourage that splendid specimen of humanity, the British boy. I therefore hope that my noble friend will give some encouragement to us to think that respect will be paid to the memory of this gallant lad, who was a credit to himself, to his family, and to the whole Naval Service.

Thanks sas1. Now that is food for thought... I agree wrong reasons. You don't award a VC to set an example. Its has to be awarded for the right reason ( Valour )

Is it possible to actually confirm why Coghill was awarded the V.C I thought it was for going to the assistance of Melville, who was struggling in the water. Then I found this.

At the Battle of Isandhlwana, the day before Rorke's Drift, January 1879 during the Zulu War the Queen's Colour of the 1st Battalion, 24th Foot was carried off the field; after the devastating; defeat by Adjutant Lieutenant Teignmouth Melvill. Swept out of his saddle and plunging into a nearby river he clutched the colours to no avail. Lieutenant Nevill Coghill assisted in retrieving the colour. Both officers perished. They received the Victoria Cross , the highest award bestowed on a British soldier—the first men ever awarded the VC posthumously (in 1935).

COGHILL, Nevill Josiah Aylmer. (reg No. 229).
Lieutenant 1st Battalion 24th Regiment (South Wales Borderers).
London Gazetted on 2nd May 1879 and 15th January 1907.
Born on 20th January 1852 at Drumcondra, County Dublin, Ireland.
Died on 22nd January 1879 at Buffalo River, Zululand.
Memorial at Fugitive's Drift, Natal. Also his name is inscribed on the Colour Pike of the 24th Regiment in Brecon Cathedral.
Digest of Citation reads:
On 22nd January 1879 after the disaster of the Battle of Isandhlwana, South Africa, Lieutenant Coghill joined another officer* who was trying to save the Queen's Colour of the Regiment. They were pursued by Zulu warriors and while crossing the swollen River Buffalo, Lieutenant Coghill went to the rescue of his brother officer, who had lost his horse and was in great danger. The two men were eventually overtaken by the enemy and following a short but gallant struggle, both were killed.


MELVILL, Teignmouth. (reg No. 858).
Lieutenant. 1st Battalion 24th Regiment *
London Gazetted on the 2nd May, 1878 and 15th January, 1907 *
Born on 8th September 1842 at London.
Died at the hands of the Zulu at Buffalo River, Zululand.
Memorial on Fugitive's Drift, Natal, South Africa, also an inscription on the Colour Pike the 24th Regiment and at St Winnow's Church, Cornwall.
Digest of Citation reads:
After the Zulu massacre at Isandhlwana, South Africa, Lieutenant Melvill made gallant effort to save the Regimental Colours. He and Lieutenant Coghill, who had tried to help, were pursued by Zulu warriors and they experienced great difficulty trying to escape across the swollen River Buffalo. The two officers* were overtaken by the Zulus and after a short but gallant struggle the two officers were overpowered and killed. The Regimental Colour, which had gone drifting downstream during the struggle, was retrieved from the River Buffalo 10 days later.

Tasker
Anymore would be merely repeating my stance.
I believe Melville was dispatched and acted with honor, I believe he could have left Coghill to his fate at the bottom of the hill, he didnt and so acted with courage and self sacrifice, people were being killed all around him this wasnt an isolated incident. He desreved his medal.
I have no idea why Coghill left the battlefield, the only officer of the 24th to do so without a reason. I do believe he again acted with valor in attempting to rescue two of his companions, putting his own life at risk. For that action, not leaving his regiment, he deserved his award.
The reason for him leaving and the timing of such can be debated ad infinitum without any hope of reaching conclusion, it comes down to what you want to believe.
And I love Victorian melodrama.

Regards

Me too, and well said Springbok. As I said in a previous post,

"At the end of the day, we will never know for sure whether M and C were heroes or not. But most people seem to side quite strongly on one side or the other."

"I am sorry that both of these officers were not killed with their men at Isandlwana instead of where they were. I don't like the idea of officers escaping on horseback when their men on foot are killed. Heroes have been made of men like Melvill and Coghill, who, taking advantage of their having horses, bolted from the scene of the action to save their lives" FACT!!!!!

Hi All.
Here are the men of the moment ! .

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cheers 90th.

"Furthermore, Dr David claims that the two scouts, Lt Teignmouth Coghill and Lt Nevill Melvill of the 24th Regiment of Foot, who were honoured with posthumous VCs after they were killed trying to save Queen Victoria's colours at Isandlwana, were not heroic, but were in the process of "bolting" from the scene."

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Here is another detailed account ( not sure if it has been posted before? ). At the end of the day we shall probably never know the truth.

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Military History Journal Vol 1 No 6 - June 1970 "FOR VALOUR" AT FUGITIVES' DRIFT

An account of the award of the Victoria Cross to Lieuts. Melvill and Coghill for heroism at Fugitives' Drift after the disaster of ISANDHLWANA
by Doreen Barfield

Revised and edited by Major R.J. Southey, ED.

"When it became apparent that Cetewayo's main impi was about to overrun the camp at Isandhlwana, Lieut.-Colonel Pulleine, commanding 1/24th Foot, removed the Queen's Colour of his Battalion from the Guard tent where it had been deposited upon arrival in camp, and handed it to his Adjutant, Lieut. Teignmouth Melvill, entrusting it to his care and bidding him to take it to a place of safety. When Lieut. Melvill mounted and galloped off with the Colour, not far behind him rode Lieut. Nevill Coghill. These two young subaltern officers were destined to become the first British soldiers to be awarded the VC posthumously for gallant conduct which culminated in their deaths in action at Fugitives' Drift on the Buffalo River on January 22nd, 1879.

According to Lieut. Coghill's diary, miraculously recovered on the battlefield after the carnage was over, and quoted by his nephew Sir Patrick Coghill in his memoir "Whom the Gods Love", he had injured his knee when on reconnaissance with Lord Chelmsford the previous afternoon. After a hasty lunch, the General had set out with a few mounted men to see for himself if enemy elements were concentrating in the vicinity of the newly-established camp. It was on the way back that the high-spirited Coghill chased some fowls in a deserted kraal, and in trying to capture them put his knee out. (This did not happen after the sacking of Sihayo's kraal during the previous week, as has been incorrectly stated elsewhere.) It was this injury which kept him in camp on the day of the fatal Zulu attack, for though he could manage to ride, he was unable to walk, and so did not accompany Lord Chelmsford on his second reconnaissance, this time in force, which included Colonel Glyn, the Column Commander, to whom Coghill had been extra-Regimentally appointed as Orderly Officer.

It will be remembered that any attempt to escape the slaughter could only be through a narrow gap to the south, as the Zulus had gone round the back of the Isandhlwana hill-feature and cut the track leading back to Rorke's Drift. The Buffalo River, forming the boundary between Zululand and Natal, was over three miles away across rocky, boulder-strewn and densely bushed terrain. By crossing over to the Natal side such fugitives as were able to get that far hoped to reach the safety of the garrisoned post at Helpmekaar.

Unfortunately those in scarlet tunics were marked men; very few so attired escaped, for Cetewayo had said that "First came the trader, then the missionary, then the red soldier," and it was the latter who was to be wiped out. In Capt. Penn Symons' ( 2/24th) account, he mentions that those in blue or other than scarlet uniform were even pushed aside to enable the Zulus to get at the red-coats. The five officers, including Melvill and Coghill, who crossed the river safely, were mostly -- if not all -- wearing blue patrols.

Coghill's horsemastership enabled him also to reach the river bank, although his horse had sustained an assegai wound in its hindquarters. Because of his knee injury he was unable to mount without assistance, so dared not dismount but kept his seat and caught up with Melvill who was having difficulty with the cumbersome Colour.
As the riders drew near the river, the dense bush and boulders rendered progress extremely hazardous. The way lay down a steep gorge, and the rushing waters of the river in spate added to their difficulties. Melvill, exhausted after his grim ride, urged his horse into the river, and although an accomplished horseman, his mount so plunged and reared on the slippery stones that, hampered as he was by the cased Colour and its colour-pike, he was thrown into the river.

A Lieut. Walter Higginson, of 1/3rd Natal Native Contingent, has left an account of what followed. He had also been precipitated into the flood-waters, and states that as Melvill drifted down towards him he called out to him to catch hold of the colour-pike, which he -- Higginson -- did, but the force of the current dragged him off his feet and off the rock to which he tenuously clung, but fortunately into calmer water. To continue in his own words, "Coghill, who had got his horse over alright came riding back down the bank to help Melvill, and as he put his mount in close to us, some Zulus who were about twenty-five yards distant on the other bank commenced firing at us in the water. Almost the first shot killed Coghill's horse, and on his getting clear we started for the Natal bank and managed to get out alright, but when we had covered about a hundred yards up the steep bank we noticed two Zulus following us. When they got within thirty' yards of us, Melvill and Coghill fired at them with their revolvers and killed them both. I myself was without arms of any kind, having lost my rifle in the river and did not possess a revolver. When we had gone a few yards further, Melvill said he could go no further and Coghill said the same. When they stopped I pushed on, and on reaching the top of the hill I found four Basutos in whose company I finally escaped by holding on to a horse's tail."
Capt. Penn Symons account continued the story; "Worn out and faint with their exertions, Lieuts. Melyill arid Coghill were unable to climb the last 30 yards to comparative safety and were caught up and killed by their inexorable pursuers. Could they but have negotiated this last short distance, they might well have been able to get away with the Basutos as the latter had secured three stray ponies."

Although it was presumed at the time that Melvill and Coghill were killed by Zulus who had crossed the river and chased after them, Mr. George Bunting of the farm "Fugitives' Drift", on whose ground the crossing point as also the memorial cross marking the site of these two young officers' deaths are situate, and himself a leading authority on the climactic events of that period, has collected information handed down by natives in that area, which suggests that the Zulus did not attempt to cross the river but shouted to some Natal natives who were standing on a rise watching the men struggle through the drift, urging them to kill the soldiers and not let them escape or else they, the Zulus, would come over when the river subsided and kill them instead. The natives who are alleged to have done the killing are said to be descendants of one Sitondosa Kumalo, a refugee from Dingaan. This theory merits some support from a further statement of Capt. Penn Symons, who records that when found a week later the bodies of Melvill ammd Coghill had not been subjected to the customary Zulu habit of disembowelling, as was done to those who fell at Isandhlwamma and elsewhere.

The bodies, as reported by Capt. Penn Symons, were found lying close together, and were buried on February 4th, when Major Wilsone Black, 2/24th, rode over from Rorke's Drift with a burial party to locate and inter victims slaughtered in the Fugitives' Drift area. They were laid in a grave dug in the shelter of the rocks where they fell, the burial service being conducted by the Rev. George Smith. Major Black and his party also explored the river area in search of the lost Colour . As the level of the water had dropped by at least three feet since the day of the battle, they were fortunate indeed in discovering it intact, although the Colour had become separated from the colour-pike and was found some distance away. The tattered remnants were taken back to Helpmekaar and handed to Colonel Glyn, then in the 24th Regiment, who had received that identical Colour possibly as Colour Ensign when stationed at the Curragh some thirteen years previously.
A month later the bodies of Lieuts. Melvill and Coghill were exhumed, placed in coffins, and in the presence of Colonels Glyn and Degacher (commanding 2/24th) and several other officens, were reburied a few yards away from the spot where they fell. Sir Bartle Frere, Governor of the Cape, to whom Coghill had acted as aide-dc-camp, presented a memorial cross which was erected to mark the grave, and still stands on a rock above their resting-place.

On May 2nd, 1879, a notice appeared in the "London Gazette" which stated that on account of the gallant efforts made by Lieut. Teignmouth Melvill to save the Queen's Colour of his Regiment after the disaster of Isandhlwana, and also on account of Lieut. Nevill Coghill's heroic conduct in endeavouring to save his brother officer's life, they would have been recommended to Her Majesty for the Victoria Cross had they survived.

When the Battalion returned to England in 1880, the Queen expressed a wish to see the famous Colour, so in July it was taken to her at Osborne. There she placed a wreath of immortelles on the staff, and the following message was sent to the Commanding Officer from the Adjutant-General; "As a lasting token of her act of placing a wreath on the Queen's Colour to commemorate the devotion displayed by Lieuts. Melvill and Coghill in their heroic endeavour to save the Colour on January' 22nd, 1879, and of the noble defence of Rorke's Drift, Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to command that a silver wreath shall in future be borne on the peak of the staff of the Queen's Colour of the Twenty-Fourth Regiment."

Sir Joscelyn Coghill, Nevill's father, was sent a tiny scrap of the Colour, smaller than a postage stamp, which he had enclosed in a gold and crystal locket. Despite the tattered condition of the Colour it remained in service and was carried across the Rhine in 1918. After sixty-seven years in use as a Regimental Colour it was finally laid up in 1933, in the Regimental Chapel of Brecon Cathedral, Wales.

In Queen Victoria's time there was no provision for the Victoria Cross to be awarded posthumously, but during the reign of her son, Edward VII, this was rectified and the first two acts of gallantry to be rewarded with posthumous yes were those of Melvill and Coghill. The crosses were sent to their next-of-kin in February, 1907. In the case of Lieut. Melvill this was his wife, Sarah Elizabeth, who had been placed on the Civil List with a pension of 100 UK Pounds per year.

In the Vicarage of St. Winnow hangs a Victorian coloured print of the painting by C. E. Fripp, depicting the last stand by Coghill defending the fallen Melvill. Lieut. Coghill is shown wearing his dark blue patrol jacket which helped him to reach the Buffalo crossing in safety, and is depicted with his newly grown beard, of which he wrote in his last surviving letter, that it was now a presentable Van Dyke but that he would be thankful to take it off. But Melvill is shown lying with his sword close to his outfiung arm, although an eye-witness, Paul Brickhill, Colonel Glyn's interpreter, declared that Melvill had lost it on his last terrible ride.

The paths of Coghill and Melvill had crossed before, although at a distance. On writing paper headed "Government House, Cape Town, Sept. 15th, 1878", having described his rough passage in H.M.S. Tyne back to the Cape in charge of a draft of the Third Foot, Coghill wrote to his family, telling them that he had been asked to accompany the Governor, Sir Bartle Frere, on a tour as his aide-de-camp, and that his Colonel had also asked him to become Regimental Adjutant, but that he was robbed of the danger of becoming conceited over the offers of these choice appointments by his anxiety to do the right thing. In the end he accepted the Adjutantcy, which was a permanent appointment, having been told that the officer holding that position was going back to England for a course at the Staff College. The Adjutant he was to replace was Lieut. Melvill, but in the meantime Lord Chelmsford cancelled his move as he could not be spared, as every officer was needed for the forthcoming campaign. Instead Coghill joined the Governor in Pietermaritzburg, and Melvill not only forfeited a chance to further his career, but stayed to lose his life.

Lieut. Coghill's Victoria Cross was sent to his brother, Sir Egerton. In Cork Cathedral there is a memorial window which carries the Coghill arms and family motto, "Non Dormit Qui Custodit", a fitting watchword to remember when thinking of these valorous young men who put their trusteeship of the Queen's Colour before their own lives".

Source: The South African Military History Society.

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In 24th's post it say's

Quote :

Although it was presumed at the time that Melvill and Coghill were killed by Zulus who had crossed the river and chased after them, Mr. George Bunting of the farm "Fugitives' Drift", on whose ground the crossing point as also the memorial cross marking the site of these two young officers' deaths are situate, and himself a leading authority on the climactic events of that period, has collected information handed down by natives in that area, which suggests that the Zulus did not attempt to cross the river but shouted to some Natal natives who were standing on a rise watching the men struggle through the drift, urging them to kill the soldiers and not let them escape or else they, the Zulus, would come over when the river subsided and kill them instead. The natives who are alleged to have done the killing are said to be descendants of one Sitondosa Kumalo, a refugee from Dingaan

Yet from the book above, it states Ten Dead Zulu's were found around. Two accounts from Coghill familey members.

Who is Mr Young ( Who Escaped and witness Coghill and Melville forcing their way through the massed hoards..

"Who is Mr Young ( Who Escaped and witness Coghill and Melville forcing their way through the massed hoards"

Is this another mystery man. I cannot find him in the survivors list.. Or have I missed him...

Thanks CTSG. I did check the list as well. Maybe we both missed him.

I can only find these "Youngs" that were at Isandlwana, But they are all listed as KIA

Young, Edward. 1093 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment.
Lance-Corporal Young, T. 1654 1st Battalion 24th Regiment.
Lieutenant Young, L. D. 2nd Battalion 3rd Regiment, Natal Native Contingent.

Sorry Gent's can find no refrence to a My Young.But his name must have come from somewhere...

John wrote:

Sorry Gent's can find no refrence to a My Young.But his namHe must have come from somewhere...

Hello everybody,

See Ian KNIGHT "Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift" (I think...).
This man is a "storyteller"!
He was not à Isandlwana!!!
His brother (NNC) was killed at Isandlwana.

Regard

YMOB

His lie was exposed by I believe Higginson.
It was his brother that died at iSandlwana

Regards

Quote :

His lie was exposed by I believe Higginson.

So we are to belive Higginson, who was a liar himself....

I freely admit that he is a proven liar. However the circumstance of his denoument of Young, in public and a published form would tend to mitigate his reputation. He wasnt challenged on his assertions by the way.

" Revised and edited by Major R.J. Southey, ED."



Revised being the operative word; so another piece of fiction describing Coghill and Melville's heroism.
History is written by the winners, in order for subsequent readers to perceive it according to the agenda of the author/general/government. Eventually, we start to believe it as fact.

Hi All.
More info on Young . This from the Wonderfully detailed Work '' England's Sons '' by Julian Whybra a must have if Lists and
Names are for you .
Frauds , Erroneous Inclusions , Missspellings , and Conundra .

Lieut . H.C.Young . He wrote a fraudulent report of his escape in ' The Echo ' , 24th Feb 1879 , which was reproduced in at
least one British Newspaper , and an extract from which was used in Mackinnon and Shadbolt ( Although in it he is referred to as
Capt. Young . ) In fact he went on sick leave from the 3rd Regt , NNC , on the 21st Jan 79 . He was seen in Sandspruit , Natal
that same afternoon . His fictitious story was exposed by Lieut. Higginson , his Adjutant , in a letter to the Natal Mercury, 16th May
79 . This man is not to be confused with his brother , Lieut. L.D. Young , also of the 3rd Regt NNC. Who was killed in action at
Isandlwana .

If anyone is interested ...........




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cheers 90th

Lt L.D. Young's demise is covered on p428-429 in Ian Knight's Zulu rising. Walter Stafford picked him up onto his horse as he was fleeing; already weak with blood loss from an assegai wound, Young was unseated as Stafford jumped a donga. Young would have soon been overtaken by the pursuing Zulus, Stafford lived to tell the tale.

"Saving the Queen's Colour" Not sure if this has been posted before. There is some interesting information and diary entries from Coghill, and Melvill comments to not Laagering.

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Coghill went back under a heavy fire to save Melvill, most of the VCs for
Hlobane were awarded for the same reason.


Cheers

Hi all

Melville & Coghill have really received the order to save the colors and by whom? And who survived to testify?

Cheers

Pascal

Hi Pascal .
Again this has been covered , but I'm sure you are aware that there is no evidence that Melvill was ordered to save the colours !.
He may well have been ordered to do so but we will never know for sure . Also Coghill didnt leave with Melvill this has been documented , use the search box , one of the survivor testimonies has Melvill & Coghill about a mile or so apart at one stage
along the retreat , I'm not sure from who's account this is from.
Cheers 90th.

Its all covered here, no need to start a we topic.

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Thanks, all subjects in this war, have already been addressed on this forum, but I never get tired of all rehash for the news members of the forum...


I think the flag was a great excuse and a very good idea to get the hell out, no?

Cheers

Pascal

I make a soldier out of you yet Pascal.....

Their reaction was human, no shame, others fled without asking their rest, and no one has complained anything, thank you gods ...

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Their reaction was human, no shame, others fled without asking their rest, and no one has complained anything, thank you gods ...

You seem to change your tune like a candle in the wind, Pascal. A few days ago, you would have called M and C "cowards."
(Which they probably were).

You know me well now.

It is to see the reactions of those who are completely , chauvinistic and believe that British men of the Victorian area were supermen.

If a British citizen comtemporary, has lived at the time of Victoria and colonial wars, he would go mad ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal, I do sometimes struggle to understand what your trying to say?

It is designed for :lol: :lol: :lol: , there are those who understand very well as Tasker example, but this is normal Tasker is a psychopath :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheers

Pascal

Looking at what both men did, i realy don't see how they can be classed as " cowards. " Melvill gave up his life
trying to save the Colour and Coghill, Coghill went back under heavy fire to try and save Melvill, and didn't give up even
when his horse was shot, despite the fact he could hardly swim due to his leg.

I wouldn't go as far as saying they were cowards, but I do think the colours were an excuse for Melville to leave. Coghill we know did not leave at the same time as Melvillle. I can never understand why both are credited with saving the colours, if ever a document should come to light that confirms Pulliene ordered Melville to save the colours then Melville and Melville alone should take the credit, not Coghill.

Hi all

You're really naive ...

The Victorian legend, it was good 133 years ago ...
The flag was an excellent pretext, as everyone Would expect, these days ...

What happened After in the river ,that is another History of the circonstances are not the same ...

Melvill wanted to save the flag and Coghill, he wanted to save his skin, new version ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

This really surprised they have not been accompanied by other ...

Cheers

Pascal

All, the legendary story of M and C's bravery can be summed up in one phrase. It was alive and kicking in 1879, as it is today. It is called:

SPIN-DOCTORING

Not a new phenomenon.

Too bad there is not a new historical movie about the Zulu war, although as some revisionist western on the plains wars(ex:Soldier Blue or Little Big Man and any others) ...

Thinking about Melville, we have to trust the competency and opinion of the honours panel who were convened many years after his death. These would have been knowledgeable military men (not including Wolseley I assume!!!).
They awarded Melville the Victoria Cross. I can't believe they would have been blundering idioits to do this, if they were not happy with the facts and contemporary evidence that they had to hand.
If it had been spin-doctoring for public consumption and a sham award, wouldn't the announcement of Mel and Cog's VCs have been made with in days of the news of the massacrs of Isandhlwana hitting the streets? And not years?

This decision was made by a competent and knowledgeable committee of military men. The same kind of committee that some want to see make a ruling on the 295 David Jenkins issue!

Like the David Jenkins issue, there will never be proof "beyond reasonable doubt" either way, but the decision has to depend on the "balance of probabilities."

Hi Kopie
The VC wasnt awarded posthumously in 1879 , it wasnt awarded in that fashion till 1905 ( happy to be corrected ) that's why their VC's were awarded years later . Also from memory I think Melvill was the first to receive a posthumous VC , again happy to be corrected .
Cheers 90th.

Thanks 90th, another thing I've learned!
But the point remains - the committee who awarded Melville his VC in 1905, must have been professional and competent (?) and they obviously decided the evidence of Melville and Coghill's actions was worthy of the Victoria Cross - not a black mark.

Kopie ,The "balance of probabilities" indicates that they try to save their skins and not the flag ...

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Kopie ,The "balance of probabilities" indicates that they try to save their skins and not the flag ...

I have been looking for evidence of cowardice in the Anglo Zulu War, apart from that suggested by some with respect to Melville. The Great War is my main hobby and I am used to reading about officers and men invariably sacrificing their lives for their comrades, unselfishly, willingly, unquestioningly, in the full knowledge that they were about to die, if duty required it. Death before dishonour etc.

Just found this on the internet:
"On the morning of 12th March 1879 a force of some 800 Zulus, commanded by Mbilini, approaching to within 50 yards of the camp, unseen due to the morning mist, and rushed the defences, killing Moriarty and 60 of his men. A party of the 80th on the south bank fired on the Zulus until they were forced to retreat. They were pursued for some distance until the Zulus turned back to despoil the train."

"Three survivors of the Intombi River massacre wrote to Wolseley on 20th December to set the record straight and ‘to be of service to Colour-Sergeant Booth’. This was followed by a belated recommendation from the newly promoted Lieutenant-Colonel Tucker for the Distinguished Conduct Medal to be awarded to Booth. As this was the result of Wolseley’s enquiry in response to the survivor’s testimony, Tucker was asked why he had not previously recommended his sergeant for a medal. Tucker had to explained that to do so would have brought to light the ‘far different conduct of Lieutenant Harward."

Sergeant Anthony Booth, commanding the detachment, was awarded the Victoria Cross, while his officer who had ridden off, ostensibly to bring up reinforcements, was tried by court martial for abandoning his men." anglozuluwar website

Evidence at least of some dereliction of duty on the part of British Officers during Victorian times. Perhaps this was more common then, when commissions could be bought; by WW1, the army was far more meritocratic in the selection of its officers and perhaps they were made of sterner stuff?

Dear Kopie if the Lieutenant Harward had one of the flags of the 80 th Foot, he was decorated, for sure ....

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Dear Kopie if the Lieutenant Harward had one of the flags of the 80 th Foot, he was decorated, for sure ....

regarding the saving of the colours..is it not true..that the colours on the battlefield are to be used as a rallying point in times of need.!...if this is true...then surely it would of been the duty of officers to use those colours as a rallying point in the confusion of isandlwana....rather then trying trying to rally the troops on the natal side of the border.

By taking the flag, they just wanted to save their skins with an excuse to go and put the flag away from the Zulus

Pascal MAHE wrote:

By taking the flag, they just wanted to save their skins with an excuse to go and put the flag away from the Zulus

how can you presume sir to know the hearts and minds of men who fought and died years before your grandfathers were born.
perhaps sir you shouldn't judge all warriors by French standards