zulu or zulu dawn-which is better

hi
just wondering which film you all prefer 'ZULU' or 'ZULU DAWN'
for me, it would have to be 'zulu' but which do you think?

thanks joe

'ZULU DAWN' for me

Hi Joe
ZULU for the passion, Stanley baker et al. Men of Harlech and the classic lines. CS Borne and Hitch, wonderful escapism.
ZULU DAWN for the more accuracy.

Regards

hi all.
I agree with springbok9.
cheers 90th.

Try watching Zulu Dawn and Zulu back to back. Then decide. There both great film.

Watch Zulu Dawn. Skip to the first attack in Zulu excellent.

Zulu Dawn for the accuracy .

My favorite is Zulu Dawn but after watching Zulu in blu-ray...

Hi Everyone,

Confess I'm not sure about this one!

Zulu Dawn - maligned by some (although unfairly in my view) - is certainly the more accurate, both historically and in terms of locale, featuring, as it does, footage of the Buffalo/Mzinyathi (at both Rorke's Drift and at the end of the Fugitive's Trail), Shiyane and, of course, a brief glimpse of , ...... eesland ...... issland ......iSandlwana..... , together with shots of other adjacent settings. Ok, it's not perfect, but I've always thought it a pretty good effort especially considering what it was up against; it was always going to be compared against the blockbuster that was Zulu.

As regards Zulu, despite its many faults it remains THE film that I suspect set many of us of a certain age on the AZW trail long before Zulu Dawn arrived. (Interestingly, and just as an aside, I once had a conversation with a keen AZW enthusiast much younger than me and he was very firm that it was Zulu Dawn that really sparked his interest rather than Zulu.)

But back to the point and my personal preference .... decisions, decisions .... ..... can I sit on the fence on this one and say my heart says Zulu but my head says Zulu Dawn? Sorry!

U

Zulu Dawn for me. Must admit when I watch Zulu I skip a few chapters to the first attack and watch from there. Fairly Boring at the start.

Dave,
I sometimes skip a bit through Zulu Dawn until they cross the river. :)

Joe

I do on both counts. I like them the same..

My favourite is, and always will be, 'Zulu'. I still remember being taken by my parents to see it on my birthday in 1964. At the time, I had no idea what the film was going to be about - all I saw on the way into the cinema was the film title outside the cinema - and was probably expecting some sort of safari film! You can imagine how blown away I was by the opening scene The film had an immediate impact on me, and I went to see it on every possible occasion afterwards. To put this into context, my parents took me to the pictures every week from when I was a toddler, and no other film, before or since, has had anywhere near the same impact on me. I suppose the best way I can describe it was like re-living an episode from a former life.

Before the men arrive with the straightjacket, I will try to reflect soberly on both films.

In the case of 'Zulu', I am now aware of the historical inaccuracies (but my love for the film dates from well before I became aware of this), as well as other imperfections which years of viewing it reveals (bayonet thrusts missing by miles. lack of blood when the Zulus were shot, etc.). It has to be remembered that severe budget restrictions affected the production, and other misfortunes (such as the lost chance to expand the Sgt Windridge character, due to illness) also had their effect. On the plus side, however, the resulting film was a good example of the British-at-war genre common from the 1940s, but with an underlying anti-war message. The performances of the cast were, without notable exception, excellent. And this was done using only a couple of well-known stars, with mainly 'jobbing' actors and in some cases stunt-men. The cinematography was good. The battle scenes were good, but hampered by the lack of Zulu extras. Finally, and certainly not least, John Barry's soundtrack gives a truly powerful lift to the film. This is even more noteworthy given that only about 20 minutes of score was written. It is just a pity that many of the younger generation have never had the chance to see 'Zulu' in its natural environment - on the big screen.

Now for 'Zulu Dawn'. I understand that at the time of its release, it wasn't exactly universally praised by the critics, but has enjoyed an increase in appreciation as the years have passed. Unlike 'Zulu', it enjoyed a much bigger budget, so there was no skimping on the big-named stars and Zulu extras. The film is far more historically-accurate than its predecessor, with good use of panoramic scenes for both the invasion and the battle. The confusion of the battle is well depicted. The acting, as you would expect, is of a high standard. Also, the viewer is left in no doubt from the outset of the events leading up to the declaration of war, and who is to blame. On the downside, given the budget, the picture quality is poor in several places. For example, the dance scene at the start of the film, and Chelmsford's discovery of the aftermath of the battle at the end of the film. Another let-down is the soundtrack. While the background music for the scenes showing the movements of the column, for instance when crossing the river into Zululand, is perfectly fine, the music played when Zulus are shown seem to me to be more fitting to the Battle of the Little Big Horn. Another fault is certainly the result of attempts to be historically accurate, as the director strives to portray the sequence of events immediately before the battle. An example of this is when Simon Ward's group first sights the Zulu army, and firing breaks out. The scene shifts to - as far as I can recall - Burt Lancaster's group, who seem to be blissfully unaware that any shots have been fired, even though it is shown that they can be heard from the camp. But, for me, the one thing that 'Zulu Dawn' severely lacks is passion.

I will now sit back and await the rotten tomatoes, cries of 'Shame!' and 'Resign!', etc.



:lol!:

Hi
Youve covered just about everything there, I also think that Zulu Dawn would have benfitted much more if it had been released before Zulu.

Quote :

I suppose the best way I can describe it was like re-living an episode from a former life.

Very interesting


thanks joe

The potential that Zulu Dawn had due to the epic battle it portrayed could have been brilliant. The cult status of Zulu marks it higher than the prequel but Zulu Dawn could have been great, or should I say vastly improved.

Hi. The fan edit version of Zulu Dawn is a vast improvement on the original and really very good! Have any others seen it? The only postings I can see on this forum relate to the trailer from last year. Neil

I haven't seen the fan edit version. But as far as the two films inquestion Zulu Dawn is the one for me. As much as I like Zulu, I do tend to forward to the part when the Zulus appear on th hillside. I do find it quite boring in the beginning, but that could be down to watching it so much.

Zulu Dawn. For exactly the same reasons as Dave. I yes I also forward wind it to the part where the Zulu's appear on the hillside. The final attack being my favourite part of all.

Bob Hoskins play a brilliant part in Zulu Dawn.

Well, I think its time for the third movie of the series to be made... Wood at Hlobane & Kambula. :-)

I've seem Zulu way more than ZD, and remember playing many more wargames of RD than Isandlwana, so I'll go with ZULU being my favorite.

The Fanedit version of ZD is on this link in two parts.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Hope people find this useful, as it is a good watch with the resources available!

Hi everyone.

I would have to say "ZULU" has to be my favourite, as like Tom, it was the film that got me hooked on this subject from a very young age. It's an absolute classic, although my 4yr old son would "STRONGLY" disagree, having seen "ZULU DAWN" countless amounts of times. He knows it word for word and i've now had to buy him his own DVD copy as he's now worn mine out!!!!!
Dont quite know how to take it, when he continually waves the hoover pipe at me, shouting "ushutu???????

Dickie555.

:lol!: :lol!: . Luckily it's only the Hoover pipe !. :lol!: .
cheers 90th.

I watch Zulu now and then, but I prefer Zulu Dawn because of the use of different locations and the larger variety of units involved.

90th

Bloody right it's lucky it was only the hoover pipe mate!!!!! I own a few throwing spears and an assegie!!!!!

Mind you, his latest request of, "Why can't i be the same colour as my Uncle Tony", (who happens to be of Afro caribbean ancestry), was a bit of a tricky one to explain to a 4yr old!!!!!

If only i could have genetically modified my sperm, so that my son could, "Live the Dream", of being a zulu!!!!! BAD DADDY!!!!!

Dicki555.
Love it , :lol!: :lol!: . Good Luck ........... '' Bad Daddy ''
cheers 90th.

For me its has to be Zulu. Its what sparked my intrest in the Zulu war at such a young age, that being said i think Zulu dawn is one amazing film but definetly Zulu.

Regards

As I said earlier I like Zulu Dawn best, but watch Zulu too. However I find it can become tiring watching the same two movies over and over again. I've read of many fans of both films resorting to fast-forwarding certain parts finding these scenes a little bit boring, in some cases missing the full first hour of Zulu until the part where the Zulus appear on the hill. These films were made in 1964 and 1979. so time for a new version of one or both in my opinion, although definitely unlikely now regretfully.

Hello all

I went to watch zulu when it appeared at our local cinema (now a supermarket), it was very powerful for the time (1964), and it will always be a classic with the fans, however, once those fans start to read and find out more about the zulu wars, they will realise that there are a lot of inaccuracies in the film, they will then know the truth about the real regiment that fought in the zulu wars, which was of course the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment of foot, and not the SWB (which did not exist at the time). I blame this film for giving people the false impression that the 24th was a welsh regiment at the time, when in fact it was an English regiment. Although the film is, and always will be, a classic, I would suggest that the film should be edited and corrected, to show that it was an English regiment called the Warwickshires that fought this action at Rorkes Drift, and not a welsh regiment called the SWB. If this action was taken it would give back the honour and credit to the old Warwickshires, who have suffered this injustice over the years, and had the glory taken from them by the welsh.

The film zulu dawn was more historically correct, but there are still a lot of inaccuracies in it, however, it does show that it was Frere who made this 'pigs ear' of things, and without the British governments approval.

So, which one to choose?

Well, because it gave the false impression, and brought about the myth that the 24th was welsh, I will have to choose zulu dawn, however, if the film zulu is edited and corrected to show that the 24th was indeed an English regiment, and the credit goes back to the Warwickshires, then I would pick zulu.

Regards, Martin.

Martin, I don't see the sort of adjustments you'd like to happen to Zulu occurring any time soon, or ever. The film is a part of British psyche now , or should I say worldwide, and trying to alter it to suit facts wouldn't work, as you will often hear it is a film not a historical documentary - artistic licence they call it. Sheldon Hall who is a film historian is very defensive in such matters, about a film being a film, nothing more nothing less. He wrote a book on the making of Zulu. Do you have it ?

Hi Colin,

Alas, I think you are right my friend, I don't suppose the film will never be amended or edited, and like you say, it's a film not a documentary, but it's so annoying that the film gives people the false impression that the 24th (2nd Warwickshires) was a welsh regiment that didn't even exist at the time. Maybe you are right, they should remake both films, and this time get them both more accurate.

I don't know if you saw it or not, but Zulu Dawn was on CH5 again yesterday, and it was only a matter of a couple of weeks since Zulu was shown, I wonder why they keep putting them on 'back to front' so to speak, zulu followed by zulu dawn, surely it would make more sense to put zulu dawn on first then zulu, or maybe the TV people only go by the years they were made. Perhaps a new 'long version' film should be made showing both batles, or better still, a whole new set of films made that show the zulu wars 'battle by battle' ending with the ding dong at Ulundi, what a set of films they would be. If they can make 2 hour episodes for a fictional 'Sharpe' (aleit, based on a real war), I am sure that they could make 2 hour episodes for a 'history of the zulu wars' series, I am sure that it would draw a good viewing audience.

Regards, Martin.

Sorry Colin

I forgot to add that I don't have Sheldon Hall's book.

Regards, Martin.

Zulu Dawn for me because of the scale and detail. Could have been more dramatic if some of the last stands had been depicted I.e the back to back at bay stuff.

A new film is required.

Remakes would be the wrong word to use, but re-imagined films would be better, not trying to compete on an equal basis of the ones that have gone before, because almost identical scripts were used. Nowadays films have to catch the attention of audiences very quickly, so waiting an hour for the Zulus to appear on the hill in ZULU, or trying to give a bit of a backstory in ZULU DAWN needs to be either removed, or shortened to half or more, starting earlier with the movements of the Zulus at Isandlwana, with Chelmsford having already left, Durnford about to arrive, or just arrived. Or a similar scenario in ZULU, with earlier warnings of the disaster, building of the barricades and so forth. New films about these famous battles need to within reason GO! to hook audiences, as many watching will not be like us, as in enthusiasts of this specific campaign, but regular film-goers looking for an interesting and exciting film of 2hrs or so. More PUNCH! as they say from the outset.

I have always thought, it would be good to see a combination of the two. Starting with “Zulu Dawn” Starting at the point when the British cross the Buffalo. Then cutting into “Zulu” at the point when the messengers arrive to bring the news of the disaster. Film the attacks up to the point just before darkness, cut back into Zulu Dawn, To see Chelmsford arriving back at the camp, When Crealock states he as ridden down the road to Rorke’s Drift and the sky is red with fire, cut back to Zulu to watch the night attack with the Hospital Burning ect.

(Just a thought) and cuts out the boring bits.

24th sounds amazing i would buy that film but the only problem is it would not show Chelsmford relieving Rorkes Drift.

24th is bang on, a remake combining the two would be great, also nothing better, than seeing the missus go for a night out, then me watching Zulu Dawn followed by Zulu with a pack of beer, visited Rorkes Drift & Isandlwana a few years back when visiting a mate in Durban, I have to say Isandlwana is a eerie place to visit even in the daytime,also saw the memorial to Coghill and Melville down the river.

Hi Towerboy.
You arent the first one to say that Isandlwana is eerie , many that have been there say the same thing .
There are statements from others on here that say the same as you .
Cheers 90th.

I have never been to iSandlwana (but would dearly love to), however, from looking at the various pictures that are online, I can imagine that visiting this place would bring a mixture of feelings, sadness, humbling, eerie, sorrowful, etc, but above all a feeling of very deep respect for all that fell at this awe inspiring place.

24th has come up with a great idea regarding these films, and like towerboy says, a remake combining the two films would be a good idea.

Some of these big budget film makers should get their heads together along with some of the best AZW histoians, and produce an epic film depicting both battles, and getting them both historically accurate, and correcting all the deliberate mistakes, falseness, artistic licence, etc, etc, of the other two films, especially "Zulu". What a Blockbuster (and myth buster) of a film that would be, and it would go a long way in righting the wrong committed by Baker back in 1964, and returning the credit, honour and glory to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, to whom it rightfully belongs.

Martin.

Perhaps we should approach some of the touring companies. We all know what we would like to see. I'm sure if there was enough of us someone would be interested in setting up an a tour package. For me it would be as many of the battlefields that could be taken in with-in our duration. I want to go but I thinking it would be to expensive to go alone. Just a thought.

Question what duration would be needed.

Hi Ray63
To do the isandlwana battle properly you would need to take in the battlefield itself, the Ngwebini valley and route across the hills, the plain leading to the Quabe valley and notch then on to the Mangeni area. A trip up the mountains to Qudeni, gives the most amazing views down into the valley.
Then Fugitives drift and up to Dundee.
Allow at least 5 days.
One day is enough for Rorkes Drift.
From there time gets eaten up by traveling: Prince Imperial Intombi River, Hlobane, Kambula, Inyezane, Gingindlovu, Ondini. But a minimum hard slog of 6 days.
Getting to and from Durban and throwing in the odd diversion a minimum of two weeks.
Ken Gillings is the travel and Guiding fundy, pm him Im sure he would put a trip together.

Cheers

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

I have never been to iSandlwana (but would dearly love to), however, from looking at the various pictures that are online, I can imagine that visiting this place would bring a mixture of feelings, sadness, humbling, eerie, sorrowful, etc, but above all a feeling of very deep respect for all that fell at this awe inspiring place.

24th has come up with a great idea regarding these films, and like towerboy says, a remake combining the two films would be a good idea.

Some of these big budget film makers should get their heads together along with some of the best AZW histoians, and produce an epic film depicting both battles, and getting them both historically accurate, and correcting all the deliberate mistakes, falseness, artistic licence, etc, etc, of the other two films, especially "Zulu". What a Blockbuster (and myth buster) of a film that would be, and it would go a long way in righting the wrong committed by Baker back in 1964, and returning the credit, honour and glory to the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, to whom it rightfully belongs.

Martin.

I like this idea, the problem is we would be the only ones looking to see it. this is the realm of tv movies, or documentaries not big budget hollywood movies


zulu is more fun to watch, zulu dawn is more accurate..what else can you say

From a film making stand point however Zulu Dawn is a better film. the shots are fantastic, they really make the landscape a character in the movie. That lends it a more epic feeling.
So i would say that Douglas Hickocks is the better director, or at least the Director of Photography was better on Zulu
The technology is better too, the colors look more realistic and no longer have that "technnicolor" wash look.
Bigger budgets meant bigger names and better actors.

it also means more oversight and that is key because if Mr. Cooper is correct Bakers Ego and motives played a lot into some of the inaccuracies of the movie. I know that he was a jerk about casting and dropped sort of snobby hints about the people he wanted in his film(and the wrong person showed up haha) Zulu Dawn has no over powering Ego.

By and large the acting is a lot better and they do a much better job of creating believable characters. Bob Hoskins and his son(real werent they) are great and you see that he really does love his son, even if it means he treats him harder than the others(and didnt his son look a litle like the kid that played cole, the dead paper hanger in Zulu?)

peter otoole is great, so is denholm elliot, the list goes on.

and while it wasnt the most accurate(and that is probably because of zulu influencing the film makers by the way) it was well shot, well acted and well directed. its editing could have been a little tighter and they could have left out a little of the story(do we really need to see verkiker play cricket with that woman?)

at the same time Zulu is much more fun and in the same vein as Gunga Din, Charge of the light brigade and Lives of a Bengal Lancer. its a ripping action yarn meant to make the women folk hide their faces and get the mens bloodlust pumping! and it succeeds admirably at that


also seeing on here a lot of similar stories, that many of us were influenced by Zulu and it holds a very special place in our hearts. it was what started me wargaming. i have been doing that for well over 25 years now and its become such an integral part of who i am that i would not know what i would be like if i didnt do it(probably wealthier, and more successful, i spent a lot of time and money on lead!!)
This all started when my father saw Zulu as a young man.. 12 years later or so a company called Ral Partha made a series of British Colonial miniatures. They had 1879 brits, they had later khaki clad brits and all the enemies you could think of, zulus, dervishes and Pathans.
My father got them and i played along and it just went from there.. his store of old classic movies from that covered british colonialism were raided for ideas and the games have never stopped since.. the two little fellows in my avatar photo are two of the Empress miniatures AZW miniatures.. if you want to see more check out empress miniatures.. they have figures for rorkes drift that are historical and based on the movie.. the two best are hook and chard from the movie!

The beginning of Zulu Dawn is quite boring. But when they enter Zululand the film beats Zulu hands down. That's my own opinion.

Hi All.
Tend to agree with CTSG , once there in zululand the movie takes off . . Even though in the film they actually cross from Zuluand into Natal !. :lol:
Cheers 90th.

"Bob Hoskins and his son(real werent they) are great and you see that he really does love his son, even if it means he treats him harder than the others"


I had not realised it was his son ? Learn something every day .

Hi Gary.
Must admit I didnt know that either !. :lol:
Cheers 90th.

I remember they were both called Williams but i can't remember any reference to them being related ? Perhaps someone can point us in the right direction ?

Hi all.

I agree with CTSG and 90th on this. The film Zulu Dawn (although it also has it's faults), has a lot less inaccuracies than the almost fictional film Zulu.

I think it is just an assumption that the two 'Williams' characters were father and son, they both just happened to have the same surname. And with having Welsh sounding names (although Williams is also a common English name), I think that they were added by the film maker to link the 'Welsh' theme of the first film Zulu, as also was the band playing 'men of harlech', when it should have been playing 'The Warwickshire Lad's'.

Martin.

A big assumption just because they have the same surname - has anyone any evidence to back it up ?

Hi All.
I dont know how many times I've watched that film but I've certainly never seen or had any reason to believe that
Sgt Williams was in any way related to Pvt Williams !. Am I missing something ? . Happy to be shown the way so to speak . :lol:
cheers 90th.