Zulu Intentions.

Was it the Zulu intensions to fight at Isandlwana, or was the valley just a stopping point. They had no intention of attacking the camp on the 22nd anyway. They would have see the Chelmsford moving off so why not attack then, it would have been an ideal time to attack. So why let the column divide, If Raw’s troop hadn’t stumbled on them, I wonder if they would have launched an attack on the camp at all.

I can see no point in sneaking 20.000 warriors to a valley to sit there and wait until the moon was right before launching an attack on force that had depleted due to the other half chasing shadows.

If half of the warriors had followed Chelmsford column it would be understandable. So why go to all that effort to attack a camp that contained only 1300 men.

Maybe they had other intentions like moving towards natal.

Eventually the troops at Isandlwana would have packed up and re-joined with Chelmsford anyway further into Zululand. The 20,000 warriors would have been
Un-stoppable, and who would have been there to stop them.

hi Dave,
I think this will just be one of those questions that no one will know the answer to and we will just have to speculate...

thanks joe

The Zulu’s wanted to fight in the open; the camp at Isandlwana was the ideal place. Small forces of Zulu deliberately showed themselves, it the hope that Chelmsford would split his forces. Major Charles Dartnell encountered a strong Zulu force and sends a message asking for reinforcements. So the Zulu Plan had worked up to that point. What they did not count on was Raws troop appearing on the horizon. But they still had the element of surprise on their side. Once it the camp it was all over before it began. The rest we know. However I have always had doubts that the 20,00 strong Zulu army had made their way to the valley as one force, I think it was undertaken over a matter of days. Possibly knowing Rorkes Drift is where the invasion would begin.

hi,
what do you suppose the zulus would have done if Raws troops didnt discover the zulu army?

thanks joe

Probably would have continued with their original plan and attacked on the 23rd Jan 1879. The other question has to be. What would they have done if Pulleine had packed up and joined Chelmsford?

hi
Would they have ambushed the column or moved on into Natal?
I dont think Cetswayo would have ordered his troops to invade natal-although there wouldnt have been much to stop the army.

thanks joe

It was Cetshwayo’s intention to stop the British invading his kingdom. The Zulu Victory at Isandlwana delayed the British Invasion. The whole war was essentially put on hold until a far larger; army could be shipped to South Africa. Should Cetshwayo had followed up his victory and carried his attack to Chelmsford column, who knows. Maybe he thought his victory would have brought peace or at least peace talks. But he just gave reason for Chelmsford to prove a point. He did this with the second invasion. Only this time he listens.

Joe. Its simple if Cetshwayo had agreed to the terms offered to him by the British the Zulu War would never had taken place.

The terms of the ultimatum

1.Surrender of Sihayo’s three sons and brother to be tried by the Natal courts.
2.Payment of a fine of five hundred head of cattle for the outrages committed by the above, and for Cetshwayo’s delay in complying with the request of the Natal Government for the surrender of the offenders.
3.Payment of a hundred head of cattle for the offence committed against Messrs. Smith and Deighton.
4.Surrender of the Swazi chief Umbilini, and others to be named hereafter, to be tried by the Transvaal courts.
5.Observance of the coronation promises.
6.That the Zulu army be disbanded, and the men allowed to go home.
7.That the Zulu military system be discontinued, and other military regulations adopted, to be decided upon after consultation with the Great Council and British Representatives.
8.That every man, when he comes to man’s estate, shall be free to marry.
9.All missionaries and their converts, who until 1877 lived in Zululand, shall be allowed to return and reoccupy their stations.
10.All such missionaries shall be allowed to teach, and any Zulu, if he chooses, shall be free to listen to their teaching.
11.A British Agent shall be allowed to reside in Zululand, who will see that the above provisions are carried out,
12.All disputes in which a missionary or European is concerned, shall be heard by the king in public, and in presence of the Resident.
13.No sentence of expulsion from Zululand shall be carried out until it has been approved by the Resident.

Not un-reasonable. He failed to comply in the time given, so he faced the might of the British Empire.

Joe. Don't be misled by CTSG.

Frere issued those ultimatums without the approval of Her Majesty's Government and it was his solitary intent of bringing about a war with the Zulu.

He knew Cetshwayo could not and would not comply with those ultimatums. So he then sent Chelmsford to invade Zululand.

I agree with Saul. The Zulu Army was arriving below the Mabaso (ie, in the Ngwebeni River valley) in dribs and drabs. Despite Chief Matshana kaMondise's disagreement and dispute with Chief Ntshingwayo kaMahole Khoza and Chief Mavumengwana kaNdlela Ntuli, his decoy movement in the area of the Phindo was successful. To make matters more difficult for Lord Chelmsford, the area of the skirmish with Maj Dartnell was in the hills overlooking the headwaters of the Nsuze River, which is below the isikala semBomvu (west of Ithala mountain) which is where Chelmsford thought the Zulu army was likely to advance from. I have speculated that this is the reason why Col Anthony Durnford wished to investigate (false) reports that the main Army was heading his way - because if one crosses the isikala semBomvu and swings left down the Nsuze River valley, one ends up on the banks of the uThukela ('Tugela') River at Middle Drift, below Kranskop - which is where Durnford's men were deployed! Note that one of the ancient traders' tracks ran over Mangeni, across the Phindo, down into the upper reaches of the Nsuze, over the iskala semBomvu, along the base of Ithala mountain and continued towards Ondini and the coast.
As it turned out, the two Chiefs were far too shrewd to follow that route and instead they led the bulk of the Army past the isiPhezi mountain and towards Isandlwana via the north-east, intending to attack the camp on the 23rd. As you all know, there is considerable speculation taking place at the moment regarding the timing that the attack was launched, but for reasons that I have repeatedly stated, they had no option but to attack on the 22nd because despite it being inauspicious to attack, the maze of (British) troop movements along the upper reaches of the Ngwebeni and the discovery of the bulk of the army by Raw's patrol, resulted in the attack being launched prematurely. I agree with several (modern) concepts that elements of the Zulu army were moving around the hills to the north-east of the camp, but I was informed by Mehlokazulu kaSihayo's son, Mnandi kaMehlokazulu Ngobese, that the warriors hadn't eaten for a considerable length of time and began foraging above the mouth the the Mabaso. Some were also 'quizzy'. I have also heard that Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha of the Mandlakazi actually walked through the British camp the night before the battle!

Regards. Ken

Hi Ken.
I read somewhere that camp fires had been seen in and around the area of Ngwebeni River valley prior to the start of the invasion. But I cannot remember where I read it. But it make sence to move into the area when the enemy would be advancing. Can anyone confirm where i might have read the fires being seen.

I'm not aware of such a report. Are you not referring to Dartnell's patrol, which noticed large numbers of fires being lit in the hills of the Phindo, the hills that I referred to and which resulted in Lord Chelmsford deciding to investigate on the morning of the 22nd January?
Regards, Ken

Ken Gillings wrote:

I have also heard that Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha of the Mandlakazi actually walked through the British camp the night before the battle!

Regards. Ken

Hi

Can you elaborate on this please?

Hi Cisco. It has been said but not confirmed that senior ranking Zulu’s walked through the camp at Isandlwana the night before to gather intelligence.
When you think about it. All they needed was a strip of red material and would have been mistaken for members of the NNC.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha, a Zulu regimental commander and one of the most talented Zulu generals. He fought at Isandlwana

S.D

Good point S.D. Perhaps we should have given the NNC a proper uniform.

Just thinking allowed. The saying “red rag to a bull” I wonder if that was taken from the Zulu War. The Zulu Bull Buffalo formation an the Red Rags on the NNC

Awesome - if it is true kudos to them! :-)

Thanks

hi 24th.
Hate to be a party pooper , but "The Red Rag to A Bull " would surely be talking about the
Red Cloak that Bullfighters use . But your thought does have merit . .
cheers 90th.

I have heard rumours that Lord Chelmsford and Crealock took a walk through the Kings kraal at Ulundi the night before the battle. But this can't be confirmed.

I have heard that as well CTSG.

E.H

CTSG & E.H. You seem to have the ability to end discussions with pure stupidity. Please consider the other members who wish to discuss topics sensibly.

Admin your comment is way out of line. This is a discussion forum, If CTSG and myself wish to comment with humorous comments then we should be able to without the school master comments. Remember without us this forum would not exist, you should think yourself lucky, that you have members like us. I contribute when I can and when I do I do not expect to be reprimanded.

I think myself and CTSG deserved an apology. Visibly!!!

Here we go. !! I'm off to bed see you all later.

Dave did you know. “Its always the rats that desert the ship first”

E.H

Elizabeth. I have send you a P.M

Sorry not acceptable. Not interested in P.M’s. whatever you have to say, I insist you say in publicly on the forum. You were quick enough to post the school master comment.

E.H

Public announcement. (I am removing your registration with immediate effect)

Admin. Perhaps you should reconsider; She may have been having a bad day.

S.D

I think Admin was more than fair.

I'm with John. Come off it, SD she pushed her luck. Bad day or not. Take it somewhere else.

What ashame it ending like this. But I agree she did push the boundries.

Mr G.

That's life. Admin made the right move.

I totally agree with S.D. Admin I have sent you a PM.

CTSG. If I was you, I would say and do nothing.

Littlehand. When I want your opinion I will ask. I'm just trying to put things right.

Which Zulu regiments did Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha lead on the attack at Isandlwana. And from where would he have entered the camp.

John wrote:

Which Zulu regiments did Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha lead on the attack at Isandlwana. And from where would he have entered the camp.

Are you questioning how they got into the camp, un-noticed? I guess with some bottle it could have been possible, I doubt that there would have been that man sentries...

Bit harsh about old EH getting the boot - I must admit some of her posts had me in stitches..

Perhaps Admin had a bad day as well :lol!:

I was wondering if he lead the horn that run into Durnford.

Come to think of it did Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha take part in any other battle after Isandlwana.

John. Heres a link to some information about Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Its by our Ken Gillings. Interesting life.

I don't think the link is working so here it is.

The Main Talk was presented by another former chairman Ken Gillings entitled The Zulu Civil War, 1883-1888.
After the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879, Zululand was divided up into 13 "kinglets". Some were ruled by insignificant chiefs, many of whom had assisted the British during the War. One, however, was given to one of Zululand's most remarkable personalities, Zibhebhu kaMapita, chief of the Mandlakazi tribe.

Zibhebhu was King Cetshwayo's second cousin. He had supported the acceptance of the terms of the British ultimatum to King Cetshwayo, but had loyally supported him during the War. The remnants of King Cetshwayo's Usuthu faction of the Zulu Royal House had been placed under the authority of the Mandlakazi. These included Ndabuko, Siwedu (the King's brother) and his son, Prince Dinuzulu kaCetshwayo. Fearing that King Cetshwayo would eventually be restored to his position of power, Zibhebhu constantly humiliated Prince Dinuzulu, and reportedly tampered with the King's isigodlo (harem).

At the beginning of 1883, Cetshwayo returned to Zululand, rebuilding his Ondini home close by the previous one. The King's return saw the entire region in a state of chaos, but because he had been stripped of his powers, he was unable to use what influence remained to restore order. Furthermore, Zibhebhu was no longer the King's loyal subject; he had become his most bitter enemy. The result of this division of Zululand was inevitable; in 1883, a vicious civil war broke out, and an 21st July, Zibhebhu attacked Ondini. The King barely escaped with his life, and took refuge in Eshowe where he died on 8th February 1884. The chieftainship of the Usuthu passed to Prince Dinuzulu.

Matters in Zululand became chaotic, and the Boers from the area made the most of them by offering to support Dinuzulu in his struggle against Zibhebhu. On 21st May 1884, at Zaalflaager, near Hlobane, they poured a bottle of castor oil over Prince Dinuzulu's head, and anointed him as king of the Zulus. This action was ridiculed by Zibhebhu but the New Republicans offered to assist Dinuzulu in return for land.

Urged on by Ndabuko, 100 Boers under Louis Botha, Lucas Meyer and some Germans from the Luneburg area, led by Adolph Schiel, advanced on Zibhebhu, joined by some 1000 Usuthu warriors. They followed the course of the Mkuze River, aware that Zibhebhu had taken up a position in the Mkuze River gorge, where it passes through the Lebombo mountains.

Zibhebhu had concealed his Mandlakazi warriors between the slopes of eTshaneni peak and the Mkuze River. Higher up, near the summit, on the southern slope and hidden from view, he had concealed those members of his tribe who had been unable to bear arms. On the north bank, he had hidden his women, children and cattle in the gorge, protected by a spur in the mountains. They were guarded by another section of his force. It was a brilliantly selected position which not only provided cover for his warriors, but also provided him with an escape route via the Mkuze gorge and onto the Makathini flats, should retreat have become necessary. The Usuthu army approached the Mandlakazi ambush on the 5th June 1884, with the Boers and Germans in the rear. As they approached Zibhebhu's trap, a Mandlakazi warrior fired a shot prematurely, giving away their position. This shot almost certainly saved the Boers, because Zibhebhu had ordered his warriors to fire at the horses, effectively immobilising them.

Instantly, the Usuthu moved into its traditional horn formation, but discovered that the topography prevented the encircling movement from taking place. As the right horn swept forward, it met the full onslaught of Zibhebhu's army near the base of eTshaneni on the right. A fierce and bloody battle ensued but it soon became clear that the Mandlakazi had gained the upper hand. Buoyed by their success, the Mandlakazi redoubled their efforts, and the Usuthu turned and fled.

The Boers, mounted on their horses, checked both the Usuthu retreat and the Mandlakazi attack, as the latter left the cover of the dense bush, and they forced the Mandlakazi to turn and seek shelter in the bush on the slopes of eTshaneni. Taking note of this development, the Usuthu then turned and pursued the Mandlakazi up the slopes of eTshaneni, resulting in their line of retreat being cut off.

They turned the Mandlakazi retreat into a rout, inflicting a devastating defeat on Zibhebhu. As the attack continued, the abaQulusi, allies of the Usuthu, crossed the Mkuze River and stormed the ridge where the women, children and cattle had been concealed. They attacked with great ferocity, scattering the defending force, and capturing the cattle - the Mandlakazi wealth.

The battle lasted little more than an hour. Mopping up then commenced, and the Usuthu showed no mercy. Fleeing Mandlakazi warriors were either drowned in the river, or stabbed and shot as they fled. Amongst the dead were no fewer than six of Zibhebhu's brothers and many members of his family. Zibhebhu, mounted on his horse, watched the carnage from a high vantage point with his two White advisors, Darke and Eckersley. As the Usuthu turned towards him, he turned his horse and fled, taking refuge in the Eshowe district for 4 years before the British allowed him to return to his home at Bangonomo.

Thanks Littlehand but theres doe's not seem to be anything about him taking part at Isandlwana. Do you having any information about him being at Isandlwana.

Safe to come out now I see. It was getting a little to hot. Glad its sorted.

Can anyone explain in simple terms why was it not right to attack on the 22nd Jan 1879 (They did I know) But why was it the wrong time because the moon was not right? What was the Zulu believes.

Old H. It relates to new moon. Zulu's believed that evil spirits wondered about during the night harming those in the world of the living.

John has asked about the role played by Chief Zibhebhu kaMapitha (aged 35) at Isandlwana; There is some confusion regarding precisely which regiment he commanded - the uDloko or the iNdluyengwe regiment, the latter having formed part of the Reserve but having led the pursuit of the fugitives as far as the Mzinyathi river, I believe it was more likely the indluyengwe. You are no doubt aware that elements of the iNdluyengwe participated in the attack on Rorke's Drift, but Zibhebhu turned back at the river. The iNdluyengwe moved upstream to flush out any fugitives who had attempted to escape by riding along the north bank of the river instead of crossing it at Sothondose's Drift (now known as Fugitives' Drift). They crossed the Mzinyathi in the vicinity of the gorge upstream of Fugitives' / Sothondosa's Drift and then linked up with the uThulwana, iNdlondlo and uDloko opposite the confluence of the Batshe and Mzinyathi Rivers, where those regiments crossed. Zibhebhu only returned to Isandlwana after dark, by which time, of course, the remnants of the Central Column were already there. He made a number of detours, stumbling over boulders and falling into dongas until he eventually rejoined his comrades - which, in fact, indicates that elements of the Zulu army were still in the vicinity during Lord Chelmsford's return to Isandlwana. Zibhebhu broke a finger in the process, disfiguring his hand for the rest of his life. This can be seen in several photographs of him.
Someone also asked about his later activities; according to H C Lugg, he was considered to have been the overall commander at the Battle of Ulundi. He had tried to lure Lt Col Buller's 'recce' force into an ambush the day before the battle and because the confusion at Ondini when the Zulus realised the hopelessness of the situation, it is quite possible that he in effect took matters into his own hands and led the army, together with Chief Ntshingwayo kaMahole Khosa and other commanders.
Ken

Doe's anyone have a photo.

Quote :

"Zibhebhu broke a finger in the process, disfiguring his hand for the rest of his life. This can be seen in several photographs of him."

As the Zulu had not intended to attack on the 22nd and only did when discovered. Would they have had time to take whatever narcotics? They took to help them in battle. Or could these narcotics have been administered on the run. Or did they do Battle with the help of drugs. ?

hi Dave,
The drugs the zulus took to give them more courage and make them carry on while injured could be administerd while running. It was held in a small pouch that was easily accesable. The zulus would even take another snuff of the drugs while fighting to give them the courage and strengh they needed to feel they could win.
They would sometimes also have tribal dances and chants to fie them up ready for battle.

hope this helps

thanks joe

Zibhebhu kaMapitha, showing his disfigured finger (which he acquired when he stumbled amongst the boulders and dongas at Isandlwana after dark on the 22nd January 1879). Left Hand.
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Photo Supplied By Ken Gillings.