Soldier's bones found at Isandlwana battlefield?

Little Hand,

The information I have is that they were found last year.

I've checked with my source the button wasn't sent for identification until 11th June, within days of that the story was broken re-Keane.

Isandlwana

I should think AMAFA know what they are doing, and must be making some progress. We know from Isandlwana outside sources are at work to help establish the descendents of Col Sgt Keane.

Quote :

Their latest move is a request in Irish Post asking possible relatives to come forward for DNA sampling. In the meantime I have put out a message on a Family History site to which I've had one reply.

Must admit. I feel pretty confident it will be Col Sgt Keane.

The latest from Peter Quantrill on the RDVC

Quote :

There is possibly some misunderstanding as to the date of discovery of the remains.
I can confirm that it was plus/minus 17 April.

I think he is referring to April 2009.

sas1

Is it me.

Just to keep us up-to date.
Came across this site while surfing.

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S.D

S.D Thanks for the link. Its good to see that there is progress being made to try and identify him.

Came across this text. Could they be on about the Clerk that was killed at Isandlwana. (But he wasnt killed if you know what I mean.

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Upwards of four hundred guns and
rifles were picked up, some of them Martinis with
the Stamp of the 24th regiment on them ; and
in the dead Zulus' pouches and bags was found
stationery captured at Isandhlwana, which they
had been using as wadding for their smooth-bores,
ration-returns, letters, English newspapers, and all
sorts of odds and ends. From off one Zulu an

English officer's sword was taken and brought to
the Chief. Crealock's clerk, who had been an
assistant in the orderly-room of the battalion annihi-
lated at Isandhlwana, at once recognised it as having
belonged to Lieutenant Porteous of the 24th ; it
was accordingly preserved and sent to his friends.
The total number of Zulus engaged was ascertained
to have been about ten thousand. Somapo was in
command, with Dabulamanzi, Cetewayo's brother,
next under him.

So it could be that M.C Keane was not even at Isandhlwana on that day. Unless of course Crealock had another clerk.

To me they look the same.

Royal Engineer Department 1837-1855

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This Button is of the Royal Engineers.

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Button found with remains at Isandhlwana.

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Victorian Rifles Regiment Button

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This Button again Royal Engineers In use by 1881

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I’m going to have to admit, its all becoming quite confusing. Was the button actually found with the remains, or was it found in the same area as the remains.
I am being to think that Rob Caskie has hit the nail on the head.

Quote :

," but Rob Caskie, principal lecturer at her Fugitives' Drift Lodge, said that further work was necessary.
Other soldiers from the general staff were present at the battle, he pointed out, and the body could belong to one man and the button another.
"These men were desperately fleeing for their lives," he said. "It was a desperate, desperate afternoon.
"It's four miles along Fugitives Trail from the battlefield to the river and they were being killed all the while. As the men fled they were trying to makes themselves as light as possible, ripping off their jackets. Buttons would fly off."

We cannot rule out that, soldiers from various regiments visited the scene of the disaster on a regular basis many years later; one of those could have lost a button, or even those that buried that particular soldier.
By the looks of it, that particular button design was widely used by various regiments, before during and after the battle of Isandlwana.
S.D

I have been looking at the Royal Engineers Buttons, and I can't find any that look like that button. Are we sure that this is Royal Engineers.

A nice little gester.

by Ken Gillings from the RDVC

Quote :

I have been reading the postings regarding the discovery of the remains along the Fugitives' Trail and wonder if you are aware that there is a repository for remains that occasionally surface on the Battlefield. It is situated in a little building adjacent to St Vivent's Church and is referred to as the tomb of the unknown warriors. I am sure you are all aware that this is not the first time that skeletal remains have surfaced at Isandlwana. When I served on the KwaZulu Heritage Foundation, I vaguely remember being informed that bones that had appeared as a result of erosion or vandalisation of graves were placed there. While serving as a member of the War Graves Committee of the National Monuments Council, I recall the Chairman, the late Major Darrell Hall, authorising the KwaZulu Monuments Council to remove a cairn that was about to be washed away into a donga on the northern side of the nek. If I remember correctly (and I may have to search through my minutes to confirm this), the remains were relocated to this "tomb of unknown soldiers and warriors"
Perhaps this should be the last resting place of the recent discovery.
I might add that I personally reburied Trooper Blaikie three times after his tombstone has been lifted off its base and bones removed as ingredients for muthi. This appears to have stopped since entry into the Battlefield was controlled

Regards Ken.

Source RDVC.

I like the idea of placing the remains in St Vivent's Church and is referred to as the tomb of the unknown warriors. There is something calming about the remains being placed together instead of being left is isolated spots. They knew each other in life and now they are together in death. No names. But now known as the unknown warriors. Excellent !!!

St Vivent's Church is this place just for the remains of British Soldiers, or is it for the Zulu warriors as well.

Are the remains of Col Sgt Keane interned At St Vivent's as I write this reply? Or are they still be used for identification purposes.

If I was K.I.A I would like to be buried where I fell. It was on that ground my life ended fighting along side my mates. I would not be too happy about having my remains removed and place somewhere else.
They should carry on and do what ever is necessary to identify the person whose remains were found. And then reburied them exactly where they were found. Only this time, in a proper coffin and the right depth with full military honours.

CTSG Say's

Quote :

Only this time, in a proper coffin and the right depth with full military honours.

totally agree. Nothing more, nothing less.

hi all.
Couldnt agree more,ditto.
cheers 90th

Any up-dates on the situation with the remains found at Isandlwana Col Sgt Keane.

Peter Quantrill on the RDVC writes

Quote :

I can now confirm that DNA tests are currently being professionally undertaken.

A Mr. Peter Keane was on the case, not sure if he was related in anyway, but he seems to have disappeared. Other that that, I know nothing.

Up-date. Remains found at Isandlwana. Posted on the RDVC.

Quote :

"I have received the following from Amafa in response to a request for an update.

Quote

No re-internment yet. More investigations are still being done, hopefully sometime next year the investigations will have taken a different shape
Thanks
Sello

Unquote"

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The Button found with the remains. ( General Services button)

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Came across this set of buttons the 1st and 2nd buttons look exactly like the one found with the remains. (So could this soldier have been a Royal Engineer)

Not to sure they are the same. Have you got a bigger photo. (By the way is there any further news on the remains found)

Dave/ Impi. Try reading the all the discussion. The button issued was cover. I don't think there is any further infoe:

There is also a lot more information here: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not sure if the button has been identified yet but if it was from the royal engineers then couldnt it be from Lieutenant McDougall???? who as i understand was the only other royal engineer invled in the fight except Durnford

The Button in question, was authenticated by John Young a well respected Zulu War Historian & Author. It is a General Staff Corps Button. Not R.E !!

The button in-question could have been dropped before or after the Battle. Loads of buttons have been found at Isandlwana but it would been near impossible to link them to any one person.

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

The Button in question, was authenticated by John Young a well respected Zulu War Historian & Author. It is a General Staff Corps Button. Not R.E !!

The button in-question could have been dropped before or after the Battle. Loads of buttons have been found at Isandlwana but it would been near impossible to link them to any one person.

Have to agree. It is ridiculously stupid to try and assign an id to a skeleton based on a button.
Archaeologists have a tendency to find a bit of a tooth and generate complete images of a whole person who lived 200,000 years ago from it.
The further back in time, the greater the quantum leaps and assumptions.
Keep the Archaeologists away !

Anyone know were the remains were buried ?



Cheers

The location is mentioned in the topic.

Has there been any up-dates on this. Do we know where the bones were actually found? Was they on the Battlefield or on the Fugitives trail?
Are they still trying to extract DNA?

Chard1879,

Best people to answer your question would be AMAFA, their website is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

'Jimu

From the web link posted by Jim.

One question can be answered!

"
“Keane was not a front-line soldier and was likely one of the last to abandon camp at Isandlwana when it was obvious the Zulu were overwhelming it,” he said. 

“He was probably on horseback which would explain his body being found some way down the Fugitives’ Trail along which survivors fled towards the uMzinyathi river and the safety of Natal. "

R.E. no Flaming Grenade.
cheers xhosa2000

sorry meant to say, ctsg,
i recall the button was found
in situ with the remains.
cheers xhosa2000

There is photographic evidence that shows the skull & Button, but was the rest of the remains with the skull ?

Hi ulundi, and it matters why, we know
where the remains were found,we know
his name and probable function, i see it
as a KIA, release his remains to be interred
with his mates.
cheers xhosa2000

Les his name has never been confirmed.

Pretty much confirmed as he was the only soldier present wearing that button.

Cheers

Apart from all the others soldiers that rode or walked over and around the surrounding areas of Isandlwana prior and after the Battle of Isandlwana.
unless of course this button was made and issued to one man of the British army on the 22nd Jan 1879.

The button as far as Im aware has been identified as being from the GSC. only one member of whom was at iSandlawana: CS MC Keane I believe.
CTSG
Scratched on the back in tiny little letters was a message " Help Im a prisoner in an Indian button factory."

Cheers

littlehand says..The Button in question, was authenticated by John Young a well respected Zulu War Historian & Author. It is a General Staff Corps Button. Not R.E !!

Yeah littlehand you had the answer all the time. it was extensively covered last year on the 'other place'.
no much doubt,who he was, where he died,his corps,i will be very interested to see the official analysis
and where the remains will be re-interred.
cheers xhosa2000

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Photo Copyright © John. Young

The photo of Keane, was used by John Young to show the insignia on a uniform. 
AMAFA misunderstood Mr Young's intentions, and thought he was saying the button belonged to Keane, and published it accordingly. It has never been confirmed that the remains are those of Keane. 
However as Keane was the only one present at Isandlwana and the only one who would have been wearing the button in-question, its highly probable that John Young inadvertently indentified the remains at the very early stages. 

The photo published by AMAFA of Keane, Is not Keane? It a photo from John Young's Collection.

Ulundi. I think it was just part of a jaw bone that was found!

littlehand.well done.you gave the question.and
the answer...again.but you was right all along..
J.Y.
cheers xhosa2000

sorry i meant to say..you said.' inadvertently '. no its J.Y.
cheers

The Zulu War medal to Colour-Sergeant M. C. Keane, Staff Clerk to Colonel John Crealock, who was the only member of the General Staff to be killed at Isandhlwana and whose remains were recently discovered and identified

South Africa 1877-79, 1 clasp, 1879 (Staff Clerk M. C. Keane. Genl. Staff) pawnbroker’s marks in obverse fields, polished, otherwise nearly very fine and extremely rare £6000-8000
Footnote
Colour-Sergeant M. C. Keane was killed in action at Isandhlwana on 22 January 1879. He was serving as Staff Clerk to Colonel John Crealock, Military Secretary to Lord Chelmsford, commanding the forces in Zululand, and was the only member of the General Staff to be killed at Isandhlwana.

In 2009 his remains were supposedly discovered and identified by means of a General Staff Corps button found close to the skeleton. Archaeologists found it during excavations being carried out by Amafa, the heritage organisation responsible for the protection of the historic battlefield. Amafa spokesman Mr Konigkramer said the finding had helped historians build up a clear picture of what had happened to the young Colour-Sergeant during the bloody battle, in which 1,350 British troops were slaughtered by 22,000 Zulu warriors. Mr Konigkramer said: ‘Keane was not a front-line soldier and was likely one of the last to abandon camp at Isandlwana when it was obvious the Zulu were overwhelming it. He was staff clerk to Colonel John Crealock, military secretary to Lord Chelmsford, commander of the British invasion of Zululand. He was probably on horseback which would explain his body being found some way down the Fugitives Trail along which survivors fled towards the uMzinyathi river and the safety of Natal. He was probably speared by a warrior in the part of the Zulu army which had snaked behind Isandlwana mountain to trap the fugitives. His body was found alone which is unusual.’ He added: ‘If the button had come from the uniform of a soldier of the 24th Regiment, he could never have been identified as hundreds of them died at Isandlwana and are among the 1,300 men buried there.’

I lifted this from the ' other place '. usually like to use my own words, but this fits nicely
cheers xhosa2000

Following the lead from Les.

This appeared on rdvc from John Young:

Quote :

To my knowledge there is no image of Keane.

Here is an image of the General Staff Corps' senior o/r's peaked forage cap badge. As to the button it is described as badge you can see below, a crowned VR cypher within a laurel wreath. [The item does not copy, but is a close-up of the cap badge shown above.]

LH,

If you read the text posted by Peter Quantrill also on rdvc:

Peter Quantrill wrote:

...To re-cap, the responsibility for the discovered grave, together with any artifacts contained therein, rests with Amafa. To help identify the button, RL and I offered our help to Amafa. The button was then sent down to Durban, photographed and enlarged. Although corroded, certain aspects remained visible. I then sent the photo image to John Young, who by common cause is an expert on such matters. John identified the button as a General Staff Corps (GSC) button He then sent an image of a GSC buttton re-searched from his records back to us. Amafa, then using a high resolution camera, again photographed the grave button. The two buttons matched 100% without a shadow of doubt, agreed by both us and Amafa.
The twist in to the tale is that John further opined that there was only one man present from the GSC at Isandlwana, namely Staff-Sergeant M.C Keane. ...

Amafa/Heritage KwaZulu Natali are the clearly ones who have drawn the conclusion if anyone has been inadvertent it appears to have been them, as in my dictionary it means marked by unintentional lack of care.

'Jimu

Is this investigation on going.

CTSG,

I haven't got a clue, no-one from Amafa ever contacted me at anytime on this matter despite their blunders.

John Y.

Blunders ? Regarding what JY

SAS1,

If you backtrack on the postings you will see the blunders made by AMAFA, you were taking part in the discussions at the time.

To give you some clues take the statement: “We sent a photograph to John Young, a military medal expert in London, who was able to identify it and the soldier who wore it,” said Konigkramer.

Despite the inference in the statement "We [AMAFA] sent a photograph..."  I have had never had any contact either at the time or subsequently from any representative of AMAFA regarding this matter.

I am not a military medal expert.

I am not in London.

Three blunders in one sentence.

AMAFA does have previous for jumping to ill-founded conclusions.

John Y.