Latest topics | » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamToday at 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterToday at 4:07 pm by johnex » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Yesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Yesterday at 10:53 am by Julian Whybra » Samuel PoppleYesterday at 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 » 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BARSun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash » A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:25 am | |
| Hi all,
Book; Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy of the zulu war of 1879" Penguin Book .
P. 129 GARDNER reports "Heavy firing rear left of camp. Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports that ZULUS are falling back..."
In others books (Ian Knight...) GARDNER reports "that BASUTOS riders (not the Zulus) are falling back".
What is GARDNER real testimony, zulus or basutos?
Thanks for your help.
YMOB |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:47 pm | |
| YMOB I think you are mixing up two seperate sentances from Gardners statement. In his report of Spepstones statement he says, " his men are falling back". ie Shepstones men are falling back. In a further point later in the statement he asks for permission to take mounted men to the Donga, he comments: " the Basutos who were retiring joined forces. Two seperate occurences involved. Hope that helps.
Regards |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:55 pm | |
| Hello Springbok9 It's possible ("I think your are mixed up...from GARDNER statements"). I am vague!!! This night i will read Ian Knight, Ron Lock, Ian Beckett, Mike Snook and others on the subject!!!! Thank you very much for your precious help. (very funny your reply "great great grandfather Chelmsfordthe escap.) Regards YMOB |
| | | Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:36 pm | |
| I've read of this confusion before, mainly due to the fact there were Zulus on the British side during the war, several in the N.N.C. particularly. As they dressed pretty much identically to their Zulu opponents, apart from the red headband, perhaps also because some in the British units couldn't tell the various tribes apart, who made up the native units, just referred to them as Zulus too, obviously not realising any written messages stating such, were bound to cause a great deal of misunderstandings. |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:10 pm | |
| [quote="springbok9"]YMOB Springbok 9 says:"I think you are mixing up two seperate sentances from Gardners statement...."
Hello Springbok9,
I am sorry but i think i am not wrong!!!
-See Ian Knight "zulu rising" p.352.
GARDNER ...sent a note to his own "Heavy firing near left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports the BASUTOS falling back the whole force turned out and firing about 1 mile to left flank"./footnote p. 645 n°6 GARDNER report , WO 33/34, National Archives, London
-See Mike SNOOK "How can man die better" p.175.
GARDNER...and wrote hos own note in further amplification of the situation "Heavy firing to the left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the BASUTOS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)
-See Ron LOCK and Peter QUANTRILL "Zulu victory, the epic of Isandlwana and the cover-up"(Greenhill books-2005) p.204: "Heavy firing to left of our camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the BASUTO's (NNH) are falling back. Whole camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)
-See R.W.F. DROOGLEVER "The road to isandhlwana" (Greenhill Books -1992) p.211. ...GARDNER penned hos own message and sent it by a second mounted man: "Heavy firing to the left of the camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports that the ZULUS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote)
it is not know where GARDNER had got the idea that the zulus were falling back.
-See Ian BECKETT"ISANDLWANA 1879" (Battles in focus-Brassey's-2003) p.63 GARDNER chose to amplify this further [ PULLEINE's 2nd note to CHELSMFORD] with his own message:""Heavy firing near left of camp. SHEPSTONE has come in for reinforcements and reports the ZULUS are falling back. The whole force at camp turned out and fighting about one mile to left flank" (no footnote) Like PULLEINE's first message to CHELSMFORD, these convoyed no real sense of danger, particulary GARDNER's mistaken emphasis on a zulu withdrawal....
-See David CLAMMER in French (cheers!!!): "La guerre des zoulous" p.67 SHEPSTONE a demandé des renforts et fait état que les ZOULOUS se retirent. C'était une étrange nouvelle à envoyer à ce moment là....Il est malaisé de deviner d'où "GARDINER"(!) tirait l'opinion que les ZOULOUS battaient en retraîte...
So i repeat my question: "zulus" or "basutos"in GARDNER's message?
I.E sorry for my bad english
Thanks
|
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Zulu the heroism and tragedy / Gardner Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:42 am | |
| HI ymob. I think the post by Colin answers the question , Gardner likely to be calling the NNC ( zulus ) as being the one's withdrawing . In other words falling back on the camp that is why Shepstone was calling for reinforcements . Good luck with your english , it's much better than my French ! :lol!: . cheers 90th. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:28 am | |
| YMOB Have a look at Gardners original statements. www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/dispatch4_isandhlwana_isandlwana.htm www.northeastmedals.co.uk/britishguide/zulu/dispatch6_isandhlwana_isandlwana.htm
90th interesting day tomorrow Wallabies/Springboks
Hope that helps |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:52 am | |
| Hi 90th and J. COLIN,
Thanks for the explanations.... and the "encouragements" !!! (It's not easy for me to write in english).
I understand that the historians are shared on the sens of GARDNER's message (zulus or basutos)...
The terme chosen by GARDNER (zulus or basutos) is essential for CHELMSFORD's staff, isn't it?
Regards |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:30 am | |
| YMOB Brickhills testimony: ......at full speed Captain G Shepstone rode into the 1 /24 camp...........he said" Sir I am not an alarmist but the Zulus are in such black masses over there, such long black lines that you have to give us all the assistance you can. They are fast driving our men this way." As he spoke the Basutos ( Durnfords Horse) came retiring over the hill. Gardner had ridden up during this conversation with a note asking Pulleine to dismantle the camp and so was a party to the conversation. Pullein then, at Gardeners suggestion wrote to Chelmsford advising of firing to the left and saying he could not move camp at present. Gardner appended his own comments ' Heavy firing near left of camp.Shepstone has come in for reinforcements and reports the Basutos falling back..........etc.
Its pretty clear that Gardiner has overheard Shepstones report to Pulleine and has passed this message on to his commanding officer. In his not he has confirmed that the Basutos( Durnfords Horse ) have been driven back by the Zulu forces.
I dont have Becket's or Drooglevers books at hand so cant comment on their substitution of the word Basuto for Zulu.
Suffice to say Gardners intelligence stemmed from Shepstones report.
Regards |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Zulu the heroism and tragedy / Gardner Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:39 am | |
| Hi Sprinbok. Not a big rugby fan , Australian Rules Football and cricket for me . I do know you guys are hard to beat at Rugby . Sorry about the off topic Pete. cheers 90th. |
| | | Frank Allewell
Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:49 am | |
| 90th Shame, one day your tastes will develop. :lol!:
It looks as though YMOB has picked up some interesting missprints. I cant get access to a large chunk of my library ( bloody builders again, redoing what they should have done right in the first place). Are you in a position to check up and see what Drooglever and Becketts interpretation of Gardners addendum to Chelmsford says?
regards |
| | | 90th
Posts : 10909 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
| Subject: Zulu the heroism and tragedy / Gardner Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:16 pm | |
| Hi Springbok. Sorry to say I think Drooglever's and Beckett's are the only books on the war that I dont have !!!. . . cheers 90th. |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:46 pm | |
| ...and Saul David ("Zulu the heroïsm...) P. 129 and David Clammer.
I will search next days in others books (Morris, Yorke...).
Nothing on the subject in "Isandlwana" by Adrian Greaves.
(Springbok9: I will read your message this w.e. I don't have my english dictionnary at hand!!!sorry!! / DROOGLEVER and BECKETT interpretation of Gardner's message were postponed in my message / today 12:10am)
Cheers
YMOB |
| | | ymob
Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
| Subject: Re: Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:35 pm | |
| Springkbok9 says:"...Its pretty clear that Gardiner has overheard Shepstones report to Pulleine and has passed this message on to his commanding officer. In his not he has confirmed that the Basutos( Durnfords Horse ) have been driven back by the Zulu forces"
Hi Springbok9,
I thus have to undersand that GARDNER wrote in reality "...basutos falling back" (not the zulus).
Your explanation seem logical. Thank you.
I don't understand the misprint of the historians...
Regards |
| | | | Saul David "zulu the heroism and tragedy..." / GARDNER | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |