Isandlwana, Last Stands

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:21 pm

Julian. I don't have access to the information stating he made return visits, so unable to comment.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:30 am

Hi Julian
Yes I do have the Boast map and did in fact spend some time a few years back walking the cairns and tagging them back to the map and also David Jacksons.
There are abnormalities, for instance Roberts unmarked grave and of course the infamous cairn (s) on the stream crossing of the modern road. The local guides do like to tell tourists that its for the Engineers working on the road.
Jackson indicates it on his map as well. The truth being that the modern road and the old road are some distance apart at that point and any fugitives escaping would hardly likely run into the full face of the right wing.

My point being really that the Boast map is no more than a pointer to general areas ( the map itself is a terrain sketch rather than a map).

I shall continue my trudging around the ridge, if nothing else I do tend to frighten the hell out of the snakes and wild life.
At some point George Chadwicks report and photos will turn up, now that will be an interesting read over a cup of Assam.

Essex
You are wothout doubt correct, I do believe however that he did ( along with a few others ) try to justify his movements and should therefore be looked at slightly askance.

Regards

Guest

Hi all

gloups !

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:22 am

Springbok
Essex - his giving a rose-tinted view is always possible but I firmly believe that with such a disaster, with a Ct of Inquiry, with the world looking over his shoulder, he would never have risked inventing anything or saying an untruth (for fear of contradiction by Gardner, et al.; but also his sense of honour and duty would not allow him to do so). The event was bigger than him. I know there were Victorian upper class cads, but they were the exception rather than the rule, and Essex was not one of them.
Re Roberts, I had always assumed that his body would have been brought down and placed under a cairn on the plain (it would've been easier than building a cairn for one man on the ridge). I know that Boast moved bodies together to make life easier, though not where they were already grouped together.

Guest

Bonjour Julian

Comment celà va ?

je compte sur toi ses jours -ci ,mon catalogue à beaucoup avancé ...

Regarde l' e-mails que je t'ai envoyé hier

Best regerds

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:36 am

Hi Pascal .
I have a copy of ' Black Soldiers Of The Queen ' by Paul Thompson but havent had the time to read it as yet .
cheers 90th. Salute

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I really don't think honour had any part to play, when it came to those able to leave the Battlefield, if it had they would have dis mounted. And fought along side those men that stayed. Like all those officers that left, they all had the same thing on their mind, their reputation as officers in the aftermath. Its only proper that they gave good accounts of what they thought they saw. But even with their accounts the whole Isandlwana event is a puzzle not easily solved.

Guest

Gary, it's the same for everyone, there should be 72 hours in a day ... Salute

Pascal

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:24 am

Hi Pascal .
Agreed , there isnt enough time in a day 24 hrs , I certainly need more Shocked

:joker:

.
cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:30 am

24th
No, you're right, honour had no part to play in leaving the battlefield (though duty did). I was referring to the personal honour involved in respect of the veracity of Essex's accounts, as raised by springbok earlier.
I don't want to make an issue of this but one can't ascribe 21st century mores (or lack of them) to individuals living in the 19th century.
Pascal
J'ai besoin de trente-quatre heures par jour. Malheureusement il ya seulement vingt-quatre. Soyez patient, mon brave!

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:44 am

Julian
We tend to point at Boast a touch to offten. Dont forget the initial clean up, extended line of men, sacks etc was done by O'Connell. There, to my mind, was the biggest disruption of the battlefield and probably the reason I place little trust in the cairns ( No Littlehand that doesnt mean I agree with you). He, O'Connell, moved bodies into two large piles and then buried them. As they were unmapped and not recorded we can not really use the cairns as reference points.
Probably the only map that can be relied on would be Mainwarings, produced for Bromheads report. Anything after that is a shuffling of the bones. so to speak.

With regard to Roberts. Would it really have been more practical to bring the body down? If the answer is yes then I would ask why didnt they bring down the bdies from Younghusbands stand. There is absolutly no soil to bury one body on that plateau let alone a solid group.

No, if pushed I would be willing to bet the odd shekel that Roberts body is on the ridge, courtesy of O Connell or Bromhead or even the Missionary Johnson. We do know that he moved a lot of bones around, some of which are in St Augustines, along with the Arch Deacon and Rev Smith.

I take your point on Essex and will keep my own council.

Regards

Subject: Isandlwan , last stands . Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:05 am

Hi Springbok .
As you are aware from my pm I dont have access to the books tonight , can you tell me where I can find the O'connell brief .
cheers 90th. You need to study mo

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:13 am

90th
Easiest source of reference is Jackson for O Connell.
For Mainwarings maps look at CT Atkinson The official history of the SW Borderers ( This is really going to choke Martin of) 1689 -1937 :lol:

Cheers Mate

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:18 am

Hi Springbok.
Thanks mate , will try and remember to pull ' Jackson ' out tomorrow . Unfortunately I dont have the Atkinson Book , from memory is it in another Publication ? .
cheers 90th. You need to study mo

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:31 am

Springbok
All perfectly true re the bones. I've never put much store by the cairns. In interpreting events I rely solely on eye-witness accounts.
Re Roberts and Younghusband, I'd say they didn't bother to move Younghusband and men down because there were so many of them - easier to build a cairn there. If Roberts really was killed by an unlucky piece of shrapnel (and, as the evidence suggests, he was the only one so caught, i.e. none of his natives were) then it may have been more convenient to bring his body down. I can imagine this situation as Roberts, being the officer, would have been among the last to leave the position, and might have been hit in this way.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:39 am

90th
I dont know, possibly Julian could help or point the way.

Regards

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:42 am

90th - you'll have to order Atkinson through the library I'm afraid.

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:54 am

Hi Julian .
Thanks for the tip . Salute

cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:56 am

90th
Ive e mailed the museum to see if they can advise also Im looking for the report from Penn Symons prepared for Queen Victoria. Hope fully Mrs Green will be able to help.

Julian thanks for the responce

Cheers

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:11 pm

Capt Symons's report was available through the museum in a booklet called 'The 24th Regiment at Isandhlwana' - published in 1978 when I bought a copy(!) - check with Bill if it's still available.
I'm not sure if you're aware but Symons surname was Symons not Penn Symons. Penn was his middle name but he liked to be called by it in preference to William, his first name. The result is that diaries, etc by people who knew him always refer to him as Penn Symons and modern writers have assumed that this was his surname.

Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London

Didn’t James Lloyd take some photographs of the interments?

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:34 pm

Hi Julian
Quite right about the name, just got used to double barreling it. Ive had a message back from the museum, Mrs Green is really very efficient. She has the Manuscript copy and also the Regimental History. Now all I need Is Keith Smiths Book and I shall be hovering on the edge of bankrupcy.............or divorce.

Regards

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:33 pm

"Younghusband’s body was found among a large clump of dead on the nek. According to Black; “about sixty bodies lay on the rugged slope, under the southern precipice of Isandlwana, among them those of Captain Younghusband, and two other officers, unrecognisable; it looked as if these had held the crags, and fought together as long as ammunition lasted”. This makes the popular story - that Younghusband climbed into a wagon-bed and defended it to the last -unlikely. That particular story, similar to an incident referred to by Mehlokazulu kaSihayo, was first described in The South Africa Campaign 1879, a collection of eulogies for dead officers. The book was compiled quite soon after the war, however, and many of the details given in it are based on hearsay; that a soldier died as described need not be doubted, but the association with Younghusband is tenuous, and is not supported by burial reports, which suggest that he was found at the centre of a large concentration of the dead, rather than alone".

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:36 pm

Hi springbok

Re - C.T Atkinsons book. It's just a pity that even some authors can't get it right, fall for the myth, and keep it alive. Surprised

SWB in 1689? Shocked

July 1881 more to the truth.

There was an article posted some time back, that said that the most famous action of the RRW was the defence of RD. scratch

The RRW didn't come into being until 1969, so just who are they trying to kid?

A bit of a cover up maybe? Suspect

The 2nd Warwickshires pushed to the side yet again, and given the order of the boot.

I will get recognition and justice for this noble regiment and its brave lads one day.

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:46 pm

Martin
Call me clarevoyant if you will but for the some strange reason I just knew the reference to CT Atkinson would wind you up. Rolling Eyes

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry Mate just couldnt resist it

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:49 pm

Littlehand
Couldnt agree more, never have held much faith in the concept of Younghusband in the wagon story. Its probable there was a scene like that, hell If I was surrounded by a bunch of Zulus with bloody sharp spears Id be in a wagon..............cowering.

Regards

Subject: Isandlwana, Last Stands Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:58 pm

Hi springers

I knew you wanted me to 'have a go' (you abtholute thtinker) :lol:

No worries mate, I will always try to get recognition, respect and justice for the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, and the brave men that fought under its name. It's just a pity that some others have to hide the real name of this noble regiment that fought in the AZW, at both Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift, and substitute it by putting things like 24th foot or 24th regiment, rather than telling the truth by giving the public the full name of the regiment, just to keep alive the myth that the regiment that fought at Rorke's Drift was Welsh.

Many places, web sites, exhibitions, museums, etc, that are supposed to be dedicated to the memory of this regiment, and the part that it played during the AZW, should be proud and honoured to display its full title, so if they wish to honour it, then they should also honour its name. The 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment of foot. But then again, maybe that sounds a bit too 'English' for them, and they might just give the game away. Suspect

'One day the truth will out', or so the saying goes.

Catch you later 'bokeroo' :lol:

Martin. Salute

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:07 am

Quartermaster Macphail, a volunteer of the Buffalo Border Guard, reminiscing 50 years later at the age of 90 remembered:

“Captain Essex when he got through gave some orders but no-one paid any attention to him. He said we had better get into some order and go to Helpmekaar, but there was no order at all. Nobody took any notice…”

Macphail again reminiscing from the comfort and safety of 50 years on, when the terrible memories of that night had faded, was rather disparaging in recalling his meeting with Gardner, despite admitting that he and his friends had deserted:

“But Captain Essex, who was in command, gave such a foolish order [his proposed shooting of the horses] that it cleared a lot of us out and we left him to fight the Zulus himself”.

Source: I very much fear
That the Zulus are near
So, hang it, I’m off to Dundee! By Ron Lock.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Littlehand,
A good one.
The lesson is to treat many of these post battle reports with much circumspection. This particularly so, naturally, when "honour and glory" was at stake. Thus, I believe that Mcphail was truthful in his old age as there were no such issues at hand.
In general, when Zulus were involved recounting the events, there was a tendency amongst them when making statements to tell the inquisitor what he wanted to know, rather than what actually happened, particularly if it was unpleasant. Added to which direct interpretation from Zulu into English, created another set of misunderstandings and thus misreporting.

regards

barry

Guest

Hi all

In conclusion,Barry , we can not rely on the Zulu evidences ?

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:57 am

The quote from McPhail needs to be put into its correct context. It wasnt at isandlwana it was at Helpmekaar, the evening of the 22nd, when the fugitives had joined up and Essex was trying to defend that tiny little depot. His suggestion that the horse be sacrificed comes from the fact that they could not be accomadated within the barricade and he did not want the expected Zulu to have access to them. In the cold light of day and retrospectivly there was no need, at the time they had come through some really harrowing experiences and fully expected to be attacked.

Barry/ Pascal thats a really wide ranging comment, whilst a certain circumspection should be applied to throw away the full testimony would be pretty extreme.

Regards

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:01 am

If you are going to discredit the zulu testimony then surely the same rules need to applied to all the white testimony?
After all every single white suvivor could be construed as having run away and therefore could be covering there own inadequacies or embarasement.

McPhail himself could be held up for scrutiny in having abandoned Helpmekaar.

Regards

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Pascal/springbok9,

No , no testimony/evidence is to be discounted totally. After all, we have little enough testimony from the Zulu side.
What I was suggesting was some circumspection and weighing up of who said what. Rather diificuly call I admit, particularly as the lapse of time has created major problems in gleaning real facts.

regards

barry

Guest

Hi all

We no longer know whom to believe between the false testimony and errors peddled of good " foix " , the bad myths ect ... The historians who deceive their readers, not to mention the cinema ...

Chacuns is his idea of what happened and we will not have the same two ...

I can not believe that the Zulu are liars ...

Because they are not white.

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:37 am

All about balance and the laws of probability, and your own gut feel really, but in essence its all we have.

Regards

Guest

Yeah, in fact, was a global idea of the facts ... The rest is not certified ...

Salute

Pascal

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I agree with Barry, I don't like the idea of Zulu accounts being translated by the British especially in regards to an decisive Zulu victory. It is not Zulu custom to give accounts of enemy bravery. I have not read one account of the Zulus giving a good account of one of their own committing an act of Bravery. I would say the Zulus didn't lied, but what they said wasn't what was written down to a certain extent.

Guest

Yeah the Zulu are true from the whites, write what they want ...

Salute

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

24th wrote:: I agree with Barry, I don't like the idea of Zulu accounts being translated by the British especially in regards to an decisive Zulu victory. It is not Zulu custom to give accounts of enemy bravery. I have not read one account of the Zulus giving a good account of one of their own committing an act of Bravery. I would say the Zulus didn't lied, but what they said wasn't what was written down to a certain extent.

The chief that gave the speach that started the Attack of the Zulu Chest again was told by Zulu's.

Guest

Hi all

Anyway we can not rely on no evidence, either some time, people ect ...

I am like St. Thomas, I think what I see ...

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:12 pm

It says in one of the Colenso books " origins of something or other" that some of the offices who returned to Isandwana state, that some of the wagons had been formed into a laggar, but never had time to complete, or something along those lines. ( Never heard of this before) anyone know which officers made these comments.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:54 pm

OldH just seen you post.

Quote :: Didn’t James Lloyd take some photographs of the interments?

Has anyone seen these photo's.

" It is interesting to note, incidentally, that the famous photographs of a burial party were taken during the June 1879 expedition, and not on 21st May, as is sometimes supposed. The photographs were taken by James Lloyd, a civilian photographer based in Durban, and there are several reasons for reaching this conclusion. For one thing, there is no mention of a photographer being present in May, when the short duration of the visit, and the possibility of Zulu attack, would have made it difficult for a civilian photographer to operate effectively. Secondly, the large number of wagons and conspicuous debris, mentioned by members of the May expedition and depicted in the sketches of the war-artist Melton Prior, are not evident in the photographs, while the burial party featured there is clearly a much smaller one. Lastly, the British troops visible in the photos are Dragoons, who formed the basis on the June expeditions. One question which continues to intrigue historians and enthusiasts alike is whether Lloyd took more photographs than those which are generally known. Despite the fact that no collection, either in the U.K. or South Africa, features more than three (perhaps four; one photo, of the mountain with a small amount of debris in the foreground, might have been taken on that occasion or sometime thereafter) photographs of the expedition, the possibility exists that more were taken but have never come to light. Lloyd of course, made a living by selling copies of photographs, particularly to visiting officers; he may have suppressed any particularly graphic photos out of considerations of taste."
Knight.

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:53 pm

Hi Littlehand .
The three Lloyd photo's are in ' The Zulu War Then And Now ' by Ian Knight & Ian Castle , on pages 80 ,82 & 84 . In the book it says May but the book was printed in the early 90's so possibly there was a change of thinking or evidence coming to light . Cant say I've heard of wagons being formed into a lagaar , quite possible though some of the defenders attempted to make one when the severity of the attack was becoming obvious . I'm sure Isandula posted at least one of those photos previously , I'd bet they are on the forum somewhere !.
cheers 90th.

Guest

Hi all

If defenders have attempted to make a laager, this is probably an order on the excellent Pulleine ...

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:41 pm

Until it can be established where each indivual officer was and each company, including the NNC its quite impossible to even guess what took place at Isandwana. There are so many conflicting stories as to who was where who said what, and who saw what. Just by reading some of the books written by the Anglo Zulu War historians of today and past, they can't agreed.
We can only assume what happened, it's up to us the individuals to blame who he thinks was responsible for the lost of the camp. But one thing I have learnt since being a member of ths forum. Chelmsford was not there on the day. So it's down to the other two.

Guest

Hi all

Entirely in accordance and there will never be the truth ...

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:36 pm

This is nearer to the truth!!. Gives thought to TMFH. And could answer the question as to why the tents weren't struck.

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Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:50 am

Lends credability to my contention that the Witness would publish absolutly anything, ties in with the other string on Adendorff.

regards

Subject: Isandlwana - Last Stands Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:22 am

Hi Littlehand
The tents werent struck because no-one in the camp expected to be attacked , and when signs of an attack became iminent it was to late to strike the tents .
cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Isandlwana, Last Stands Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:06 am

90th: "no-one in the camp expected to be attacked "

The camp at iSandlwana is not the first time, or the last, that a British Army force has been struck unexpectedly.
The precaution of patrolling, deploying vedettes, sentries, opservation posts, has always been to recce, gather intelligence, observe and therefore to counteract the unexpected eventuality of being attacked by surprise.

There are only 2 theories that my little brain can comprehend:-

1. The failure of iSandlwana, in a nutshell, is due to the failure of these precautions. Either, the patrols etc failed to function (which they did not), or Pulleine failed to process the intelligence reports that were coming him to him and failed to appreciate the gravity of the grave situation that was developing around him.

OR

2. It was an OUTSTANDING Zulu tactical victory. The field-craft involved in manouevering 20,000+ battle ready warriors around Chelmsford's advancing column and then surrounding the camp, almost unseen, to the degree, that so little suspicion was aroused in the camp that the defenders there were essentially caught with their pants down, not even having time to strike the tents before the proverbial hit the fan. One can only take their hat off to the Zulus on that day.

» The last stands at Isandlwana.
» Isandlwana, Last Stands
» Had the 2nd/24th colours disappeared before the last stands were made