Durnford was he capable.2

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Yes! have to agree, almost sound religious Amen!

I think someone as said before, but I'll ask anyway. What would the reaction have been from The Good Lord Chelmsford ( Amen) if Pulliene & Durnford had done their own thing, and beaten the Zulu's still based on the fact that no one knew the Zulus were going to attack.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

He'd have been highly enbarassed that he went off in thw wrong direction and let the camp be attacked.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:40 pm

6pdr
To be fair, Henderson never bad-mouthed Durnford in public ever. There was just this one remark made in a letter to his father in private so should never really have come out!

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:41 pm

To be fair Henderson never made any derogatory remark about Durnford in public ever. There was just this one remark made to his father in a private letter - so should never really have come out!

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:: The Good Lord Chelsmsford made mistakes, he wasn't present during the Battle of Isandlwana. He wasn't to know that the Zulu's were hiding and preparing to attack the camp on the 22nd and neither did anyone else, military or civilian.

I agree with you actually. There is no more reason to scapegoat Chelmsford than Durnford. Given a second chance with adequate resources he proved his competence. About the worst I would charge him with was over confidence. He was in too much of a hurry. I'll even go you one better and say I believe he would have done better than Pulleine had he been present.

The fact remains however that a senior military officer can delegate authority but never responsibility.

Chelmsford may not be the one to "blame," but the Zulu army got into a position of enormous advantage under his watch. There are qualifiers, many of which I am sympathetic to, but being absent from the field of decision does not mitigate a commanders' responsibility -- particularly if he took half his troops away with him. He was badly out maneuvered; in the final analysis the defeat has to be laid at his doorstep more than any other.

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Julian Whybra wrote:: To be fair Henderson never made any derogatory remark about Durnford in public ever. There was just this one remark made to his father in a private letter - so should never really have come out!

Julian,

Fair point. I do wonder whether there might have been something personal between them but that is just a wild-ass guess. I have no evidence whatsoever.

And thank you for pointing out that Cochrane rode across the battlefield to request the support of that gun. I stand corrected. Come to think of it I DID read that -- but only once -- in Ian Knight's latest effort I think -- and it entirely escaped my mind.

What an EXCITING ride that must have been for Cocky. Right up there with Lonsdale's retreat from the camp!

- 6pdr

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: He'd have been highly enbarassed that he went off in thw wrong direction and let the camp be attacked.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:00 pm

Quote :: He'd have been highly enbarassed that he went off in thw wrong direction and let the camp be attacked. Cheers

This is why, discussions come to a halt! Stupid childish comments. You seem to have lost your way DB. You have held some good discussion in the past, and people took notice and replied. Shame!!

Subject: Durnford was he capable. Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:11 pm

Aw, c'mon LH.

DB has made some great contributions to the forum, he doesn't use insulting words to anyone, which is very uncommon for the young people of today, and he is just as entitled to his opinions as everyone else on here. We have all been young ourselves at one time, show a little understanding mate.

Salute

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

What do we know about Major Clery. He was the one who founded the camp at Isandlwana, he was the one who sent Pulleine his orders, had he ever had combat experience, or had he been an administrator like Pulleine for most of his career. It's clear he didn't like Col:Glynn for whatever reason. I wonder how he would have stood up as commander at Isandlwana on 22nd.

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

Martin sorry, have to agree with LH. When I first joined, I was amazed that DB knew so much about the Zulu War. I have seen the various photo's of him at the Puckley Kent event with the likes of Ian Knight and Dr Adrian Greaves, and he really did look the part. He's just picked up some bad habits from other members,with the snide comments ect. Littlehand spoke very highly of him in a PM conversation we had. So it is sad to see Littlehand posting what he thinks now. Hopefully Drummerboy will get back on track, it woud be nice tI see him posting Seriouly again. He taught me a thing or two. But as they whatever will be will be!

Subject: Durnford was he capable Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:32 pm

Littlehand .
Sorry , I must be missing something ! . I hardly think DB'S comment is stupid or childish , he ( LC ) may well have been embarrassed had they all survived , that he did indeed misread the situation . I know I would've been .
Ulundi .
Dont understand what your getting at either , so the above comment can be applied to you also . Keep in mind DB is very young and sometimes he wont have as good a grasp on the English language as your good self !.
90th

Posts : 558 Join date : 2012-05-05

Quote :: Don't understand what your getting at either , so the above comment can be applied to you also . Keep in mind DB is very young and sometimes he wont have as good a grasp on the English language as your good self !.
90th

You have misread my post,

Quote :: sometimes he wont have as good a grasp on the English language

I never implied this. And how does it apply to me! I was merely saying DB, has been led a stray. Truth known he knows this.

Subject: Durnford was he capable Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:00 am

Ulundi .
How have I misread your post when you say you agree with Littlehand ?. Then you say DB has picked up some bad habits and you refer to snide remarks etc etc , Please show me some of these snide remarks ??? . I'm assuming that what you may see as snide remarks is the vocabulary of a 14 yo , and you misconstrue it as the so called snide remarks . If you are still confused , read littlehands post before yours and you'll see that you've agreed with him so my post does concern you .
90th.

ps. I said ''sometimes he doesnt have as good a grasp on the english language as your good self '' . Read my post slowly and carefully ! . I never implied you said anything like that. I said it !! , in an attempt , to expain to you, that what you take as '' snide remarks '' are merely the statements from a 14 yo !. Happy for you post DB's snide remarks , I've never seen him post anything as I'd describe as being that way , unlike some others on here who have been known to do so on occasion .

Subject: Durnford was he capable. Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:37 am

Ulundi.

DB has a very good knowledge of the AZW for his age, and hopefully, he will one day be a notable historian on the subject. He is always keen to learn, and if he is incorrect about something, he is more than happy to be corrected and doesn't go off sulking or stamping his feet just to get his own way. Others may have tried to lead him astray, but he is level headed enough to make his own mind up and read various books, etc, without being influenced by some of the members on the forum. If you yourself are willing to learn (as you say at the bottom of your posts), then do what DB does, read plenty of books by reputable historians, and come to your own conclusions about Durnford, don't be lead astray by some of the one way 'Durnford bashing' traffic that some of the members dish out on the forum.

Guest

Hi all

Not need to be a historian or read 10,000 books Isandhlwana to understand what happened ...

Because historians themselves, are often in opposition and those who were themselves, present in Zululand, were not all inclusive ...

The story is a series of lies upon which we almost all agree ...The fact however Remains a senior military officer That can delegate authority but never responsibility. Yeah, it's true!

And the main error LC, is leaving Durnford enter Zululand ...

They disagreed both and when we do not agree with his subordinates, they leave aside ...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

[quote="littlehand"]

Quote :: This is why, discussions come to a halt! Stupid childish comments. You seem to have lost your way DB. You have held some good discussion in the past, and people took notice and replied. Shame!!

Lh seriously how is that childish comment ?

He did go off in the worng direcion and, he did let the camp be attacked, i don't see anything childish there Suspect

Cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:52 am

Please don't let the discussion degenerate like this. It ruins the site and is sad (in both the OED and colloquial senses of the word).

6pdr
The Cochrane quotation/anecdote comes from E. Durnford's book. Durnford interviewed Cochrane (and other survivors) personally and many properly-attributed quotations not found elsewhere appear (often as footnotes) in his book - but only in the 1st edition - not in the later excised shorter editions. Several published AZW historians have not realized this. The 1st edition is rarer and much more difficult to obtain than the later ones but it is worth the effort.

Guest

Hi all

To do? After 35 pages, " Durnford was he capable.? "

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:: ...i don't see anything childish there
Cheers

There isn't. Shocked

Personally, I thought your response was spot on. If the profile under your avatar didn't say you were 15 nobody here could possibly guess that. When those in opposition to your position can't assail it with logic, the ad hominem stuff starts. It's a testament to the strength of your arguments. I think your comments have been incisive and well informed. Carry on!

Guest

Yes ,yes ,but after 35 pages, " Durnford was he capable.? " :lol:

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Julian Whybra wrote:: The Cochrane quotation/anecdote comes from E. Durnford's book. Durnford interviewed Cochrane (and other survivors) personally and many properly-attributed quotations not found elsewhere appear (often as footnotes) in his book - but only in the 1st edition - not in the later excised shorter editions. Several published AZW historians have not realized this. The 1st edition is rarer and much more difficult to obtain than the later ones but it is worth the effort.

Well, that illustrates the difference between professional and amateur historians: depth of research. (Meaning I don't have either edition!) Fascinating and points up what others have said here about the scope of the inquiry after the battle ignoring a lot of valuable information as being irrelevant to the narrowly defined questions of the moment.

Do you, by any chance, know what Cochrane did next? I mean I know he survived the battle (amazing to me that Cochrane, Harford (detached) and Smith-Dorrien who traveled to Durban together as "specials" all got through alive,) but after delivering the message to Curling's crew did he return to Durnford?

I'm curious about whether he crossed the battlefield twice at that point in the battle and what route he took to escape. I can't remember his account of Fugitive's Drift, but I don't think we have a great deal from him (apart from witnessing the Durnford/Pulleine interchange) in general, do we? If that wrong, where can I look for a full account from him?

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:40 pm

Hi 6pdr'
Do you have '' Anglo Zulu War , 1879 A Selected Bibliography '' by Harold Raugh ?. Page 382 , Number 3126 .
If not , ' The Journal Of The Anglo Zulu War Historical Society 13 ( June 2003 ). A number of accounts by Cochrane are in this
article , which was written by Julian Whybra . These Journals I think are well worth having , they are often for sale on ebay at good prices . Members of the society must pay 10 GBP'S for back copies ! , ebay can be as low as 3 or 5 GBP'S. I'll have a quick search if I find one I'll post here for you .
90th .

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:17 pm

Hi 6 Pdr .
I've sent you a pm for what you are looking for . These you may also find useful if you can find them or gain access .
From H. Raugh's Selected Bibliography
Cochrane , Lt WFB , 32 nd L.Inf , Letter in the ' Times ' ( London ) 22nd March 1879.
Cochrane , Lt WFB , 32 nd L.Inf , Letter , 8 th Feb 1879 . '' An account of the battle of Isandlwana , from my personal observation '' . Hereford Times , 29th March 1879.
Cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:26 pm

6pdr/90th
Cochrane delivered the message and stayed with the gun. He accompanied it back to its original position and then tried to get back to the donga by which time the passage had become impossible. He was unable to get through and became swept up in the melee and retreat.
I might point out that my AZWHS article on Cochrane got a bit mangled by the printer and I'm reproducing it in full without errors in Studies in the Zulu War II. Cochrane left six accounts in total.
Pascal
Yes he was.

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:32 pm

Julian .
When will No2 be printed ?.
90th.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:56 pm

Dec-Jan time

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

Julian Whybra wrote:: I might point out that my AZWHS article on Cochrane got a bit mangled by the printer and I'm reproducing it in full without errors in Studies in the Zulu War II..

Thank you very much for your help. I look forward to reading your next book. Is SitZW2 going to be available from the same source as you last work only, or more generally?

Posts : 1086 Join date : 2012-05-12 Location : NYC

90th wrote:: Hi 6pdr'
Do you have '' Anglo Zulu War , 1879 A Selected Bibliography '' by Harold Raugh ?. Page 382 , Number 3126 .
If not , ' The Journal Of The Anglo Zulu War Historical Society 13 ( June 2003 ). A number of accounts by Cochrane are in this
article , which was written by Julian Whybra . These Journals I think are well worth having , they are often for sale on ebay at good prices . Members of the society must pay 10 GBP'S for back copies ! , ebay can be as low as 3 or 5 GBP'S. I'll have a quick search if I find one I'll post here for you .
90th .

90th,

No, I do not have the Raugh book. I will buy the journal you suggest provided the seller will agree to ship to the US at something resembling reasonable international rates. (I have failed in that regard before.) In any case thank you kindly for all the extra effort you have expended on my behalf. It is much appreciated. Salute

Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK

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Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

6pdr wrote:: There isn't. Personally, I thought your response was spot on.

Thank you

Cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:07 pm

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

Quote :: Henderson, one of Durnford's own troop commanders.

"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do"

Don't write this statement off. Henderson was there. There is no reason why he should make a statement like this if he didn't think it. You are all obsessed with dressing Durnford up as a hero..

CTSG. You have posted these unreliable words from Henderson already.
Durnford died fighting.
Henderson fled iSandlwana on a horse. A few hours later, he fled to Helpmekaar from Rorke's Drift on a horse.
I am disinclined to pay much attention to the words of a man who fled two fights in one day. Words disrespecting a brave man who died at his post with his men

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:22 pm

:sleep:

Guest

:sleep:

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:25 pm

:sleep:

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:14 pm

Quote:
Henderson, one of Durnford's own troop commanders.

"If I had known what sort of man Durnford was, I don't think I would have gone with him. He was close to me during most of the fight and he lost his head altogether. In fact I don't think he knew what to do"

Julian Whybra wrote:: CTSG
For once we are in agreement. I don't write Henderson's statement off. I never have. It is a curious remark made in private correspondence to his father but may reflect Henderson's true observations. The thrill of battle?

This is exactly why it should be written off!
Soldiers after seeing action, are prone to venting in private, unguarded moments including in letters written to their nearest and dearest in particular. Ventings of soldiers such as this is common, it is often exaggerated, inaccurate and factually incorrect. (I have seen it in soldiers' letters, heard it and have been guilty of it myself to be quite honest). Private comments such as these should never be relied upon for that reason and would certainly be inadmissable in any court.
If we are to believe soldiers' comments made in private correspondence and not for public consumption, let us all go back and read the letter of Thomas Thomas again. And let's not write him off as "not being there." Henderson was not there either - he was off on his hooves.
There is probably very good reason why Henderson NEVER made these comments in the public domain. Think about it!

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

On the other hand, he may very well have been aware of the events leading up to the court of enquiry, and thought in better to keep his personal thoughts to himself and his father.
The statement certainly was made public by Henderson.

Although you say he left them to in at RD, no one there including Chard, blamed him for going. And not many of us do come to think of it.

Subject: Durnford was he capable. Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:42 am

It is well known that the court of enquiry was a sham to cover up the blunders, mistakes, gaffs, pigs ears, call them what you will, made by Chelmsford, and dump the blame on the scapegoat Durnford. The web of lies and deception spun by some of those who knew the truth but covered it up to protect Chelmsford, was disgraceful and dishonourable. If Henderson believed what he wrote to his dad and wanted to dish out the dirt against Durnford, then why did he not speak up about it or send a letter to the enquiry and enable more salt to be rubbed into Durnfords wounds and blacken his name even more?

To all the Durnford bashers on here, I would suggest that you read Admins slendid posts of the 30 Nov at 11.25 and 11.33, and ask yourselves why did all those men rally to him if he was such a doffer, and why did high ranking officers speak honourably of him if he was such a clot?

Durnford was a brave and honourable man, and hopefully one day, when the truth finally dawns on the doubters, there will be some long overdue justice for this noble officer.

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:55 am

Julian .
Thanks for the reply , looking forward to getting a copy .
90th.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi All,
I treat Henderson's questionable account with much circumspection and even a little contempt.
Afterall, Henderson "gapped it" and deserted, did he not?. By contrast, Durnford, being the very brave soldier that he was, gave his life for Chelmsford.
Mehlogozulu, one of the main commanders of the Zulu imp, gave extensive interviews after the battle and, inter alia, this is what he had to say about Durnford' demise;

....... when we closed in was came to a mixed party of mounted men and infantry, who had evidently been stopped by the horn . They numbered about a hundred and made a desperate resistance, some firing with pistols ( rifle amo having run out ) and others with swords. I heard the command "fire" being given repeatedly, but we proved too much for them, and we killed them all where they stood.
When it was all over I took a look at these men , and saw an officer with his arm in a sling , and with a big moustache, he was surrounded by carbineeers, soldiers and other men ( NMP) who I did not know, We ransacked the camp and took away everything we could , including ammuntition which we got out of boxes.

regards

barry

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

The same Zulu also at this to say.

" I saw Colonel Durnford returing from the Buffalo River. I didn't see who killed him, but when I returned, Some men from the iNgobamakhosi Regiment were taking some things and they called me over to look at the strange character on his arm. I'll try to find out about the sabre and if I can obtain it, I'll return it."

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:56 am

impi wrote:: The statement certainly was made public by Henderson.

Although you say he left them to in at RD, no one there including Chard, blamed him for going. And not many of us do come to think of it.

1. When, where did Henderson state this in public?

2. Chard was a gentleman, so I wouldn't be surprised that he didn't shoot Henderson and his troop in the back for riding off. Do you have a source that shows that Chard didn't blame Henderson for deserting?
Come on impi, seriously, use your loaf.
How do YOU think Chard would have felt, seeing Henderson and his troopers riding off and leaving them to it?

No one can blame a man's innate instinct for wanting to run away from an inevitable, terrible death, agreed impi. But when you take the Queen's shilling you don't desert your comrades; if necessary, you save your last bullet. But to desert two battles in one day calls Henderson's entire character into question imo.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:04 am

barry wrote:: Hi All,
I treat Henderson's questionable account with much circumspection and even a little contempt.
Afterall, Henderson "gapped it" and deserted, did he not?. By contrast, Durnford, being the very brave soldier that he was, gave his life for Chelmsford.
Mehlogozulu, one of the main commanders of the Zulu imp, gave extensive interviews after the battle and, inter alia, this is what he had to say about Durnford' demise;

....... when we closed in was came to a mixed party of mounted men and infantry, who had evidently been stopped by the horn . They numbered about a hundred and made a desperate resistance, some firing with pistols ( rifle amo having run out ) and others with swords. I heard the command "fire" being given repeatedly, but we proved too much for them, and we killed them all where they stood.
When it was all over I took a look at these men , and saw an officer with his arm in a sling , and with a big moustache, he was surrounded by carbineeers, soldiers and other men ( NMP) who I did not know, We ransacked the camp and took away everything we could , including ammuntition which we got out of boxes.

regards

barry

Well said Barry.

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:26 am

Impi .
Please read Julian's post if you havent already about Henderson , you say Henderson made it public , well he didnt !.
His comment was in a letter to his father , cant see how Henderson made it public ?????.
90th.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:37 am

And impi, referring to your post of 28th November, 23.01, no I don't understand, so why don't you explain it to me?

Tell me how it is that some people on this forum, you included apparently, argued that Durnford was to blame for NOT taking charge of the camp as he was apparently ordered to do. Julian publishes a llittle paper that shows once and for all that Durnford was not ordered to take command of the camp. Then those same Durnford haters then argue that Durnford was to blame, BECAUSE he took charge of the camp? Shocked

Please explain.

Subject: Durnford was he capable ? Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:40 am

Should be interesting !. Shocked

90th

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:45 am

I am not holding my breath waiting for an enlightening reply, 90th!

Subject: Durnford was he capable. Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:29 am

One of the excuses for the reason why Henderson left them to it at RD was that they were very low on ammo, rather odd that, I was under the impression that there was plenty of ammo supplies at RD with it being a re-supply depot.

Many men escaped the massacre at iSandlwana thanks to Durnford and the brave souls that stood with him. Some of the men that escaped did not need to justify their escape, but others had to find excuses to justify theirs, so it is inevitable that some of these survivors accounts will not always tally with what others say, and will be out of the time frame of events, therefor, some 'primary source accounts' given by some of these men who had to try to justify their escape, can be taken with a pinch of salt, and I think Henderson falls within this category, and therefor his blather to his dad can be classed as unreliable.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.2 Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:57 pm

Well said Martin. Salute

It is not rocket science is it? There are a lot of posters on here who read a lot, but don't think through what they read for themselves. There others who fail to think through the little they have read and enter belatedly into debates without having read the beginning and middle of the discussion.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi All,
The highest act of valor that a soldier can commit in battle is to give his life so that his comrades in arms can live to fight another day.
Although Vereker gave his horse to one Zulu, Col Anthony Durnford gave his life in order that 100-32 men. ie approx 68 men may get away and escape the bloody end that he and the gallant few suffered in the donga.
Col Anthony Durnford for my VC 68 times over!!

regards

barry

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