Fighting technique

Hello to all

Anyone knows it testimony or Zulu warriors were seen, launching their Iklwa at very short ranges, as if it was Isijula​​ as in the 1964 film " Zulu" ?

Cheers

Pascal

And the iwisa , it is regulatory to throw at the opponent ?

Some pictures of the time show warriors carrying a light throwing spear in their shield hand which would be a secondary armament. How widespread this was or who carried them I do not know.

The fighting technique devised by Shaka was intended so that Zulu soldiers only fought in close combat. Their hide shields being nearly 2m high and as wide as the man himself were designed to form a total defense in massed formation against the throwing spears of the enemy. The whole intention of Shaka's strategy was to engage the enemy in hand to hand combat and kill the enemy. The use of the shield along with the stabbing spear in combat was a unified action which allowed the Zulu soldier to hook the opponents shield with the leading left outer edge of the shield pull it backwards thus allowing the stabbing spear to be smashed upwards into the right chest of the opponent. The effect was instant death if done correctly. One has to understand that prior to Shaka warfare in Southern Africa were "handbags at dawn" affairs. The throwing of spears and threats and extended groups of men were intended as shows of strength. The intention was not the mass killing of the enemy but a threat. That meant that in the main, the unit with greater show of force won the day. Shaka changed all this because he was a psychopath.

One must factor Shaka's own attitude and mental state to understand how and why his army was so brutally efficient. Shaka was a psychopath of the first order. He was illegitimate and a social outcast in a society which saw this as unacceptable. He was bullied and tormented as a child because of his situation. This drove him to be sadistic, cruel mass murderer of genocidal proportions. His killing spree took more than a century to be surpassed by Stalin.

This mental state dictates how his military tactics and training were implemented. His soldiers were trained and disciplined in a way that meant failure in either training or execution of orders meant certain death. I can quite confidently say that any man that threw his stabbing spear would have been executed then and there or subsequently. Any man that threw his stabbing spear would have been effectively disarmed and have no method of defense or attack.

Thank you, I just wanted to know if in situation particularly urgent , warriors could launch their Iklwa as isijula​​ on the enemy ?

Since he could use their iwisa as a secour weapon for the melee (although the iwisa can also be launched)

The Iklwa completely unbalanced though, are not made ​​to be launched, but at very short range and in an emergency, it may be possible ...no ?

In 1879 a warrior wearing a Iklwa , a Iwisa and 2 or 3 Isijula ​​ or a musket or a rifle or a carabine and a Iklwa and a Iwisa...

Cheers

Pascal

RobOats wrote:

Shaka was a psychopath of the first order.

Rob, do you have any evidence for this? On what criteria do you base this statement?
(On applying a well used diagnostic test to Lord Chelmsford a few years ago, he showed nearly every one of the characteristics of a typical psychopath).
Shaka has some of these characteristics, agreed, but he is too unsubtle to be a genuine psychopath. Ruthless, yes, psychopathic, probably not

Also, I recall reading that Zulus carried a shield, a throwing and a stabbing spear. Happy to be corrected.

No Tasker224

In 1879 a warrior wearing a Iklwa , a Iwisa and 2 or 3 Isijula ​​ or a musket or a rifle or a carabine and a Iklwa and a Iwisa...

Cheers

Pascal

tasker224 wrote:

RobOats wrote:

Shaka was a psychopath of the first order.

Rob, do you have any evidence for this? On what criteria do you base this statement?
(On applying a well used diagnostic test to Lord Chelmsford a few years ago, he showed nearly every one of the characteristics of a typical psychopath).
Shaka has some of these characteristics, agreed, but he is too unsubtle to be a genuine psychopath. Ruthless, yes, psychopathic, probably not

Also, I recall reading that Zulus carried a shield, a throwing and a stabbing spear. Happy to be corrected.

Well lets see;

It's estimated that Shaka was responsible for the deaths of some 2.5 million people in South Africa. This is born out by the fact that when the Boer trekkers arrived in the future Transvaal they found total desolation and the Tswana people had been driven into the Kalahari desert which is now Botswana. Robert Moffat of the London Missionary Society based at Kuruman in the Northern Cape documented the carnage.

When Nandi, Shaka's mother died, he had hundreds of elderly mothers killed so that others could understand the grief he was suffering.

Many of these events were documented by John Dunn.

These are not the actions of a sane man but they are the actions of deranged psychopath.

RobO
Or in todays PC parlance a poor missunderstood young man that was subject to peer abuse and lack of a father figure. Currently venerated in the name of the Durban international airport and an ancestor of the illustrious for life father of the nation and defender of mans right not to wear a condom our present Prime Minister. Or as he is known locally: "He whos devine right it is to over populate the earth all on his own,"

Cheers

PS. Fully agree with you, the Mfecane is laid squarely at his door.

What is the relationship between this topic and shaka

PAscal
Shaka developed the Zulu fighting techniques
Durban airport is called King Shaka international
The president of SA is a relative of Shaka
Shaka instituted the Mfekane

Stay awake and concentrate young man.............tisk

Yes,Sprinbok9 but there is one Tasker on this forum who is fascinated with the mental state of people and who carry this subject in this direction ...



The real question is can we launch an zulu hand to hand assegai despite his imbalance ...

Pascal MAHE wrote:

The real question is can we launch an zulu hand to hand assegai despite his imbalance ...

With respect this is an illogical question based on the fact that;

(a) A stabbing spear is just that. A weapon that has specific purpose for which each man is specifically trained to use in the specified manner.
(b)Pictures and contemporary custom show the Zulu warrior carrying a throwing spear and a knobkerrie within the shield structure.

Why would he want to throw his only attacking and defensive weapon away. This would be like asking whether it is possible that a British soldier in the battle with ammunition used his rifle with attached bayonet as throwing spear.

Pascal
Look through the older histories, EH Ritter etc. The full history of how how eSharka moulded his army and why he developed the stabbing spear is there to see, In essence however he could not understand the logic in throwing your weapon away. The old method of fighting was for two armies to oppose each other and throw spears. When there spears were gone they would collect the oponents and through them back. eShakas impis didnt throw any spears so when the opposition had done so they were left without weapons and at that point he unleash his men with stabbing spears. Pretty effective. Through the succesors the lighter throwing spear was added back, mainly through hunting.
try and find a copy of Ritter, some good reading.

Cheers

Thank you both, I know all this, but I understand that bad, imagine ...

A warrior launched its 2 or 3 isisjula ... It is now few meters of an british imperial infantryman opponent who has seen too ...

The British soldier, for example, just pull another Zulu warrior and when he sees our first Zulu warrior a few meters of him, he had already started to reload his gun ...

Our warrior Zulu knows very well that he will not have time to reach for a melee with the British soldier will shoot him as soon as he reloaded his MH ...

Desespoire in case ,our Zulu warrior launches his assegai (like in the movie Zulu, or the " cook " is killed in this way) and use its IWISA for other melee in the battle if it hits its target ...

I wanted to know if in a situation of extreme urgency, the assegai can be used as a isijula ?

PAscal
Just as much I suppose as Rob said earlier with using a MH as a javelin. Not designed for throwing and would be very unwieldy, the balance is all wrong.
That being said, I suppose a brick was intended as a building element but is widely used as a weapon in street riots !

Cheers

yes ? why Zulu warriors Bring a IWISA in addition to their assegais for melee ?

springbok9 wrote:

Shaka developed the Zulu fighting techniques
Durban airport is called King Shaka international
The president of SA is a relative of Shaka
Shaka instituted the Mfekane

What you describe here Springbok is a great leader and a military genius who brought order and organisation to that part of Southern Africa.
White, European leaders instituted their own Mfecanes centuries before Shaka and also exported their Mfecanes to foreign lands in the form of Colonialism, exterminating the indiginous peoples of their colonies. The native Americans, (both North American and South American), the Aborigines, the Carib Indians to name but a few.
The Romans did likewise millennia before Shaka did, and modern man persecuted the neanderthal hundreds of millennia before that.
SA is quite correct in honouring Shaka as a national hero.
Military genius or psychopath? Maybe both, but it is completely irrelevent.
The qualities that many great leaders and the most senior managers possess are psychopathic traits - it is often WHY they are so successful. Not all psychopaths are axe-murderers; 99.99999999999999% of them are high functioning, successful careerists.

Hi Tasker
I dont believe we can eulogise a mass murderor by suggesting others were the same. Shaka united all the tribes in the East, South East and Central areas, but at what cost? And deviation from fealty was mass extermination. The Mfecane was probably Southern Africas second biggest death tolls for a single event ( compares with the vissions that caused mass starvation for the Xhosa ). eShaka was no benevelent ruler that conquered and then ruled for the people. He continued his reign exactly as he started dolling out death at the slightest breach. The devastation caused by him at the death of mNandi is unparaleled. His subjugation of descenting tribes was virtual extermination.
Sorry mate this was no Joan of Arc.

Cheers

Shaka is like Attila or Genghis Khan, many short legends about him ...

For example it would destroyed 66 tribes or black little nations in South Africa ...

He would have disembowelled 100 women at various stages of pregnancy to see what they had in the womb ...

If he was a White in Europe, it would not have as many legends ...

In fact he had a disastrous youth that made him teasing...

Cheers

Pascal

Some good points about Shaka, well made.
So why is Durban airport named after a "mass murderer?"
Is this just a case of him defeated would have been a mass-murderer/psychopath, but, as the Victor, he is remembered as a great King and military genius ?

tasker
Simply put he was the founder of the Zulu Nation
Cheers

I wonder how the Zulu people of today view Shaka? A great range of opinion, I am sure.
I plan to visit KZN one day and when I do, I hope to meet very many Zulu people as well as the old gits like me on the tourist trail.

Tasker
Hope to see you in RSA at some point.
In answer to your question, very mixed opinions really. People that have short memories will venerate him, long memories will castigate.
Again possibly it could be area dependant for opinions.
I have a series of tapes made for TV of Shaka Zulu with Henry Cele as Shaka. Absolutly brilliant series, shows both sides of him. You should see if its available on DVD, well worth watching if you can aquire it.

Cheers Mate

Just found it
http://www.classicmoviestore.co.uk/shaka-zulu-dvd-p-1249.html?gclid=CMm5lIPoy7UCFabLtAodingASA

One of the best 12 pound you will spend

Hi Springbok / Tasker
Tasker the series goes for 546 Mins , I have it and think its worth watching , certainly for the 12 Quid - I wouldnt pay anymore !
Sorry Springbok , my opinion of it obviously isnt as glowing as yours . . But Hey , each to his own . .
Cheers 90th.

So why is Durban airport was named Effective "mass murderer?"

Tasker is the same for Napoleon, dictacteur a responsible for millions of deaths and who has restored slavery ...

That's it. the human species (99,99 of morons ), it is chauvinism, nationalism see ...

Cheers

Pascal

90th
Possibly Ive enjoyed it more being from the 'neighborhood'. It does make for excelent background material and a lead in to the AZW.
Possibly again because Ive stayed in the village that was the film set.

Possibly again that I played football with Henry Cele ( wasnt allowed to at the time as mixed race teams werent allowed ).

Cheers Mate

Hi Springbok.
Yes I agree its worth watching , and also agree that as your from the same ' hood ' it would no doubt significantly hold a much
larger interest and impact for your kindself . In saying that , Henry Cele plays the part of Shaka very well , and is excellent throughout
the series . If you can get it for 12 quid or less I say go for it !
Cheers 90th.

Hi Springbok 9 et Marsupial

How black nation Henry Cele belongs there ?

Cheers

Pascal the Rascal

Pascal
Sorry dont understand that one but Henry Cele was a Zulu. Played in goals and was knicknamed the Black Cat.

Cheers

Thanks for the link Springy, I might well buy that. It'll take me the best part of 2013 to watch it all. 90th, seems good value for over 500 minutes of viewing!!!

Tasker
Enjoy it mate.
One thing it will explain is how and why the impis could charge against the massed MH.
Enjoy the bit where Shaka decrees that his warriors WILL NOT wear sandals.

Cheers

Springy, don't spoil it for me, you'll be telling us the cricket scores next!

What was the thinking behind the sandals? Was it tactical?

Just searching for that video, found this for you to enjoy next time you come to London, fellas!

http://www.shaka-zulu.com/

tasker224 wrote:

What you describe here Springbok is a great leader and a military genius who brought order and organisation to that part of Southern Africa.
White, European leaders instituted their own Mfecanes centuries before Shaka and also exported their Mfecanes to foreign lands in the form of Colonialism, exterminating the indiginous peoples of their colonies. The native Americans, (both North American and South American), the Aborigines, the Carib Indians to name but a few.
The Romans did likewise millennia before Shaka did, and modern man persecuted the neanderthal hundreds of millennia before that.
SA is quite correct in honouring Shaka as a national hero.
Military genius or psychopath? Maybe both, but it is completely irrelevent.
The qualities that many great leaders and the most senior managers possess are psychopathic traits - it is often WHY they are so successful. Not all psychopaths are axe-murderers; 99.99999999999999% of them are high functioning, successful careerists.

In recent history there was a European leader with similar and perhaps even greater credentials.

He lifted and unified his nation from dire straits. He developed their military capability with ruthless efficiency. He developed a new military strategy; rapid mechanised infantry attack supported by devastating air power. He ensured that his scientists and engineers had everything they needed and his legacy is modern space travel and exploration of the universe.

If Germany renamed a major International air-hub Fuhrer Adolf Hitler Airport would you also support this based on what you have said above?

Hi Tasker .
As I said in my earlier post if you can get it for 12 quid do so ! . I wouldnt want to be paying much more , as I said its watchable
especially for 12 quid .
Cheers 90th.

Tasker
I wont reveal any more but I can tell you that the Mighty Mighty Proteas have thrashed the Pakistantis in the last two tests within four days at each and entering the third day of the third test Pakistan are following on two hundred behind and have lost their first second innings wicket.


Cheers Mate enjoy the video.

Hi all

Well, I've found that the Zulus in the serie TV Shaka were great Soft alongside the Zulus in the films Zulu and Zulu Dawn ... I really did not like ...

Cheers

Pascal

Shaka was a great man. He just got tired of being pushed about..

But no, he had a disastrous childhood and the repercussions this had we known about his conportement...

90th wrote:

Hi Tasker .
As I said in my earlier post if you can get it for 12 quid do so ! . I wouldnt want to be paying much more , as I said its watchable
especially for 12 quid .
Cheers 90th.

Got one off ebay for £8 and free postage 90th. I look 4wd to seeing it.

springbok9 wrote:

Tasker
I wont reveal any more but I can tell you that the Mighty Mighty Proteas have thrashed the Pakistantis in the last two tests within four days at each and entering the third day of the third test Pakistan are following on two hundred behind and have lost their first second innings wicket.


Cheers Mate enjoy the video.

I hope so.
Not a bad result for the English yesterday either, they're going well. I can feel another Ashes success coming on. No doubt 90th will have his own view on that!

RobOats wrote:

If Germany renamed a major International air-hub Fuhrer Adolf Hitler Airport would you also support this based on what you have said above?

Rob, if you're going to join in a discussion late, read through all the posts and get up to speed, otherwise you're going to make comments which are off the pace as you have done above.
In answer to the above.

They haven't - for VERY obvious reasons that need no further explanation from me.
NO!
Surely you are joking. You seriously can not believe that there are any valid comparisons to be made between King Shaka and Adolf Hitler?

They have plenty of blood on their hands both, this is the report...

tasker224 wrote:

RobOats wrote:

If Germany renamed a major International air-hub Fuhrer Adolf Hitler Airport would you also support this based on what you have said above?

Rob, if you're going to join in a discussion late, read through all the posts and get up to speed, otherwise you're going to make comments which are off the pace as you have done above.
In answer to the above.

They haven't - for VERY obvious reasons that need no further explanation from me.
NO!
Surely you are joking. You seriously can not believe that there are any valid comparisons to be made between King Shaka and Adolf Hitler?

Oops; I was the first to respond to the post by Pascal and introduced the foundations set by Shaka (post 3 page1).

I am not joking about comparisons. Its clear that whilst you may have an interest in this area you have not studied South African history. I was born and raised in Southern Africa and it formed an integral part of my education. One of the primary reasons why the Anglo/Zulu War started was because the Zulu had shown themselves to be unpredictable, unreliable on agreements made (see Boer agreement and subsequent slaughter) and to possess a very potent army.

Pound for pound, the genocide exacted by Shaka was probably worse than Hitler. The area Shaka's impis ranged through stretched from Port St Johns on the South Coast of Kwa-Zulu-Natal to the Zuitspansburg Mountains in the Northern Province (100miles South of the Limpopo River).

His forces left virtually no living person in the areas now occupied by the Free State, Gauteng, Northern Cape and Northern Province. The remnants of the Tswana people took refuge under Moshoeshoe in the now Lesotho and the Kalahari desert that is now Botswana. You'll understand that from the Anglo/Zulu War that he took no prisoners.

This would be the equivalent of the Third Reich Forces slaughtering the populations of occupied Europe.

His rampage changed the face of Southern Africa and his reign continues to influence everything to this day. One of his Generals, Mzilikazi Khumalo, got caught stealing cattle from Shaka and took his clan (Matabele) Northwards and having had a brief encounter with the Boer settlers moved North into the Southern region of Zimbabwe where he set about the same process against the Shona tribes in the Northern part of Zimbabwe. It was estimated by a number of big game hunters like Frederick Courtney Selous that there were originally between 1.5-2m Shona living there. Following the defeat of the Matabele by colonial forces in the 1890's the Shona population was estimated at a mere 500 000.

The enmity between the Shona and Matabele still exists and in the 1980's Mugabe sent forces (North Korean trained 5th Brigade) into Matabeleland and systematically slaughtered up to 20 000 Matabeles. A former black operative of the Rhodesian Selous Scouts and later member of South African Reces recounted scenes to me of the 5th Brigade moving in and killing every living thing, including animals, and burying them in mass graves using bulldozers whilst on assignment in Zimbabwe during this period.

RobOats wrote:

I was born and raised in Southern Africa and it formed an integral part of my education. One of the primary reasons why the Anglo/Zulu War started was because the Zulu had shown themselves to be unpredictable, unreliable on agreements made (see Boer agreement and subsequent slaughter) and to possess a very potent army
.

Thanks for the above post Rob. Very interesting and it does sadden me to read about that bloody and brutal history.
I think being born, raised and educated in SA does not put you in a position of strength here Rob, it puts you in a position of weakness. You are not in a position to be objective in this subject and your whole education in this matter will be biased and even prejudiced.
As for "agreements", these will be the same kinds of "agreements" imposed on Cetshwayo in the lead up to the AZW of 1879, the native Americans, the Incas, and every other native people in whose lands the white European has colonised.
I was born and raised in the UK and many members of my family were sent to fight against Hitler and his evil regime. Perhaps that together with my education biases my opinion of him.
To categorise any other ruler with, or to attempt to compare any other ruler to him, is in my book stated out of a completely ignorant knowledge of Hitler and the deeds of him and his 3rd Reich.
Perhaps it is best to leave this one here Rob, and agree to disagree. I respect your opinion, but I will never agree with it. Sorry.

The means used by Shaka were not the same as thoses of this ... .. ..... of Hitler , industrial developments are differents, but the result is the same type ...

Shaka was certainly not very clear, some psychiatric problems ...

Tasker much of the history relating to the period of Shaka and Dingaan comes from the men such as John Dunn. Dunn an advisor and confidant had no reason to be biased in their observations. The same could be said of the big game hunters such as Selous. They merely reported what they saw in their travels in Southern and Central Africa.

Moffat and his son-in-law, David Livingstone also wrote extensively on what they witnessed. Nearly all were observant of what happened. The history I was taught conformed with British standards and I wrote British GCE exams. I would therefore presume that this syllabus was vetted and approved by British authorities. If there was bias then I must presume you suffered the same bias.

As regards the reliability of Zulu agreements may I suggest that you read about the interaction of Gert Maritz and Piet Retief as regards their cold blooded murder. It was these treacherous dealings that clouded any meaningful peaceful relationship with the British at that time. It is wise not to measure history within the norms of today but rather within the norms of the time. It is by those standards and laws by which men took decisions and they should only be judged within those parameters.

As for WW2; my father and his brother both volunteered and served with armoured divisions in North Africa and Italy for 6 years against both German and Italian forces. My uncle was a Captain in the Black Watch. I am well aware of what Hitler did but in reality Stalin made him look like a learner. The industrial scale murder of the Jews in the concentration camps has somewhat clouded the history of WW2.

In as much as Hitler caused the deaths of millions of people both directly and indirectly in Europe so did Shaka and Dingaan in Southern Africa. So it is as inappropriate to celebrate the excesses of Shaka and Dingaan as it is of Hitler.

Well written Rob!!

Hi all

Personally I do not trust the speech of the explorers, hunters, ect .. which were often excuses for the colonialists ...

When the murders of Dingane, he wanted to prevent a white presence in Zululand with 50 years in advance ..

It is true that Stalin and Communism is .... but capitalism is worth nothing either ...

It is for me Inappropriate to celebrate conquests & conquerors ,because they are all murderers, every people should stay home ...

ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879) ::
ZULU REGIMENTS & CORPS ZULU WAR 1879 ATTIRE AND WEAPONS
:: Shaka and Dingane they were the good guys?

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal, We are way off the topic of whether and Zulu warrior would have/could have thrown his stabbing spear but your last statement always makes me smile. The evils of colonialism, capitalism, yada, yada, yada.

You sit in front of your latest electronic device, wearing clothes (both) made in some sweat shop in South East Asia and engaged in a temporal debate about some strange battle fought in the middle of nowhere. But you profess that you would really prefer to be wearing skins and living in a cave or perhaps even round house and hoping today is going to be your lucky day when you actually land some nice fish or perhaps a whale or seal carcass washes up on the beach below your abode.