| Rorke's Drift men who never were | |
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+9Kenny 90th John 24th DrummerBoy 16 Mr M. Cooper impi ymob Frank Allewell 13 posters |
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Guest Guest
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:39 pm | |
| After nearly thirty years of researching the lives of the defenders of the Rorke's Drift I have also accumulated quite a list of men who were variously reported in the press as being present at the battle, but who do not appear on one of the infamous roll of defenders !
The following names have all appeared in either newspapers or regimental journals etc as being a 'Hero of Rorke's Drift,' or 'was at Rorke's Drift.' Many of the newspaper reports were of the death of a 'Rorke's Drift Hero, but a significant number, mostly from the 1880-1890s were under the heading 'Rorke's Man in trouble.' or the similar.
TT Davies John Taylor William Edwards Michael Morris James O'Connor Jonathon Smart Francis Alcock Henry Parker Henry Buckingham Joseph Veale John Williams (aka Skipp - who impersonated the real Williams VC) Frederick Sherwood Albert Bridgeman Robert Jones Thomas Welch William J Hoare ...Gilmour Ashton Davies Thomas Rothwell James O'Gorman Edward Humphrey Lyons John McNulty Harry Lang Frank Grant (R. Art) Griff Griffiths Harry Goodall William Avery **Helen Milford ** George James Merchant ...Day James Lane RJ Gamble (Australia) GW Smith (SA) TB Melhuish (Aust) James Page (Aust) Joseph Chester (Aust) William Patrick O'Brien (Aust) John Wyndon Lyon (Aust) Thomas O'Connor (Aust) Henry Clare Haywood (Aust) William Nelson Thomas George North (17th L) William A Douglas William Jones (Aust - VC imposter) John William Howdin (Aust) ...Jeffes (Aust) Howard English (Aust) James Phillis (13th LI) Jack Gardner (24th) Charles Moore John Hughes Philip Price Joseph Davenport Frederick Boisson John Baldock (SA) Hugh Ross (SA) Arthur Atkins George W Hudd G. Comberton
I'm sure there will be lots more!
Lee Stevenson www.militaryancestry.co.uk |
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Frank Allewell
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Posts : 8572 Join date : 2009-09-21 Age : 77 Location : Cape Town South Africa
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ymob
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Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:10 pm | |
| Welcome Mister STEVENSON,
An another researcher on the anglo zulu war with a well known book on the battle of Rork's Drift. A good new for all the members! Cheers
Frédéric Bomy |
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impi
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Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:10 pm | |
| Lee welcome. Excellent first post. Certainly adds weight to another issue! ![agree](/users/1313/16/75/50/smiles/14391463.gif) |
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:26 pm | |
| Welcome to the forum Lee, good first post. impi. Ummm! Can't see the person you are inferring to on the list, can you? ![scratch](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_scratch.png) |
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impi
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Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:38 pm | |
| I wasn't referring to any particular person! |
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DrummerBoy 16
Posts : 110 Join date : 2013-06-16
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:06 pm | |
| - impi wrote:
- Certainly adds weight to another issue!
![agree](/users/1313/16/75/50/smiles/14391463.gif) What issue ? Cheers |
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24th
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Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:53 pm | |
| Well going by the topic title, I guess "impi" is referring to the amount of pretenders, who claimed to have been at RD. |
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John
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Posts : 2558 Join date : 2009-04-06 Age : 62 Location : UK
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:46 pm | |
| - Lee wrote:
- After nearly thirty years of researching the lives of the defenders of the Rorke's Drift
That's a hell of a long time! Good to have you on the forum. You must know the defenders like the back of your hand, along with the roll calls. Who was there and who wasn't, officially that is! |
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90th
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Posts : 10904 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: RD men who never were ! Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:50 am | |
| Hi Lee . Welcome aboard , I thoroughly enjoyed / enjoy your book ' Rorke's Drift By Those Who Were There ' , havent got around to reading your ' The Rorke's Drift Doctor ' as yet , one of several that I have banked up ! . Cheers 90th. |
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
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Kenny
Posts : 598 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:43 am | |
| Many of these soldiers listed by Lee were placed at RD by inaccurate reporting in newspapers at the time of their death. Remember that 2/24th were based at RD (Fort Bromhead or Fort Melvill) for 6 weeks following the battle but were not present at the time of the famous defence.
Also many men (based at Helpmakaar or with Lord Chelmsford) wrote home saying that they had survived the battles of Isandlwana and RD - to reassure their families that they were safe - even though they themselves were not involved in the actions.
I think it cheapens the whole episode if so called modern historians highlight or make play of these obvious inaccuracies which denigrates the achievements of the soldiers involved. I recognise there will continue be inaccurate reporting in newspapers. |
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Chard1879
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Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:31 pm | |
| Kenny is right.
Many men gave the false impression that they were at either or both battles, ie; iSandlwana and Rorke's Drift, and with research not being so thorough at the time, many reporters and authors of the day simply believed these men.
This has unfortunately carried on into modern times by some so called modern historians and newspaper reporters, because they cannot be bothered to do their own research, and they just copy the inaccuracies from the past and assume it to be fact. However, there are thankfully some very good modern day researchers and historians that delve deeper into these things, and sort out the inaccuracies and put things right.
The problem is that these old and inaccurate reports etc are still believed to be correct by some people, and therefor keep being quoted as being 'true' or 'fact', when actually they should be binned. |
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kopie
Posts : 249 Join date : 2013-06-01
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:24 pm | |
| Kenny has hit the mark. INACCURATE and SENSATIONALIST reporting by irresponsible journalists is nothing new as we are all aware.
I think the list posted by Lee could be divided into 2 categories straight away.
1. Those old soldiers who never said they were there, who never claimed to be at RD in the first place, but who have been sensationalised and placed there incorrectly by descendants and/or newspaper hacks looking to sex up their report.
2. Those old farts who claimed with their own mouths to have been at RD, in order to gain some kind of unwarranted recognition and undeserved respect down their local boozer, in order to earn a free pint!
Lee's list does not discriminate between these 2 categories. |
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Guest Guest
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:00 pm | |
| Quite a few were former members of the 24th, so yes they could quite truthfully say that they had been at Rorke's Drift...but just not as 'defenders.' Of the others, well quite a variety of reports in the press, the following is just a random selection;
...Gilmour received a prison sentence for assault in 1887 ~ "...received Victoria Cross at Rorke's Drift" William Edwards was murdered in 1906 ~ "...fought at Rorke's Drift" TT Davies ~ "...one of the last survivors of Rorke's Drift" died c. 1927 Howard English died 1930 ~ "...he had been wounded in the knee at Rorke's Drift" and had been complaining of his old wound just days before his death. Arthur Atkins ~ claimed to have been a hospital patient at Rorke's Drift ...Jeffes was a police sergeant in NSW ~ killed in a road accident in 1911 - "Hero of Rorke's Drift" James Phillis died 1934 ~ "one of the last survivors of Rorke's Drift" Charles Moore died 1940 "Rorke's Drift veteran dead" John Williams, alias Skipp...charged with theft in 1887 in Cardiff. He made a statement in court that he had been at Rorke's Drift and also held the Victoria Cross. On a previous occasion the real John Williams VC was asked to appear in court wearing his medal to give evidence. John Taylor, Private in the 24th Regiment, "stated to be a survivor of the Rorke's Drift and Isandula disasters..." sentenced to 1 month in prison for theft. c. 1881 |
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Chard1879
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Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:45 pm | |
| Lee, you haven't got one on a Pte David Jenkins 1st/24th |
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:02 pm | |
| I think that after almost 30 years of study, Lee would have found out if Pte David Jenkins was a fake or not, and seeing that Pte David Jenkins is NOT on Lee's list of 'pretenders', I think that should be a good clue. |
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Chard1879
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Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:10 pm | |
| True, but Lee did state in his first post. "I'm sure there will be lots more!". No harm is asking about a particular individual. |
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DrummerBoy 16
Posts : 110 Join date : 2013-06-16
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:38 pm | |
| - Chard1879 wrote:
- on a Pte David Jenkins 1st/24th
Chard What did you think of the essay ? Cheers |
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:42 pm | |
| Of course not Chard, quite correct.
And there will no doubt be many more corrections to be made. But with the latest painstaking research done recently, I think it is obvious that Pte David Jenkins was one of the heroes of RD. |
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:01 pm | |
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:08 pm | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Subject: Re: Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:23 am | |
| Sorry CTSG, not getting drawn in. I think I posted enough about Pte David Jenkins being at RD before Julian's book was published, so everyone on the forum already knows my opinion, ie; He Was There.
_________________ Remember The Warwickshires not the Myth.
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Mr M. Cooper
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Posts : 2591 Join date : 2011-09-29 Location : Lancashire, England.
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:52 pm | |
| CTSG. What is your point? You don't know if I have purchased Julian's work or not. Are you just using guesswork, or have you taken up angling and started fishing for clues? |
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:55 pm | |
| ![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png) Why would you buy a book, if as you say, you had already made your mind up prior? Be honest! You don't have it, you didn't want to waste you money, on something that is not conclusive! |
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Guest Guest
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:24 pm | |
| Dear Mr Stevenson, welcome, you and Mr Baynham kindly signed your work when i was searching for R.D. J. Lodge, i hope you post as you feel to, i would value your opinion's. my one regret on RDBTWWT, that there was no hb. i'm a book collector, so would say that. cheers xhosa2000 |
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1879graves
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Posts : 3380 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:30 pm | |
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Chelmsfordthescapegoat
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Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:33 pm | |
| He's on the list! Nice one Graves. |
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1879graves
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Posts : 3380 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:43 pm | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]There was a Smith, John. Private. 25B/1005, B Company at Rorke's Drift as a defender, if this is the same man, then I did not know he died this way.
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Chard1879
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![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:56 pm | |
| Tried to cut his own throat, and for that, he was charged and bound over! ![No](/users/1313/16/75/50/smiles/1068807785.gif) |
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1879graves
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Posts : 3380 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:34 am | |
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1879graves
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Posts : 3380 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:56 pm | |
| [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Western Gazette - Friday 28 September 1934
Last edited by 1879graves on Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Kenny
Posts : 598 Join date : 2013-05-07 Location : Brecon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:48 pm | |
| Robbins = Jobbins
Lee Stevenson did have an idea (only joking) to produce a publication entitled 'Rorke's Drift by those who were not there'. See post about O'Brien. |
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1879graves
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Posts : 3380 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon
![Rorke's Drift men who never were Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Rorke's Drift men who never were Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:23 pm | |
| Hi Kenny Many thanks for the information "Robbins = Jobbins" I bet we could find plenty for Lee to add to a book, it would need updating every year |
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| Rorke's Drift men who never were | |
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