Durnford was he capable.6

I looked on the Forsyth Medal Roll , no-one named ' Little ' in the NMP Roll .
90th

Interesting in that it says Lt Raw saw the Zulu's advancing towards the camp. And not discovered them hidden in the valley.

F. E. Little enrolled Natal M. Police 24th April 1909. Served Tabora Tanganyika Territory.

Steve

It seems to me that Pulleine was at a total loss at what to do about the evolving situation, and he had hours to do something about it since the first report of zulu's in the area, but had done next to nothing about it. Maybe he said that to AD in the hope that AD would not reply that he was not going to interfere with Pulliene's command of the camp and that he would not be staying, however, with AD being the senior officer whilst he was at the camp, no doubt he would be deemed to be in command, and any suggestion that he made would be taken as being an order. Yet when AD asked Pulliene for the loan of two companies he was refused and did not pursue the matter, thus showing that he had not taken full command, because if he had taken over full command and with him being the senior officer he could have ordered it, but he didn't. And if LC had wanted AD to take command (as the liar Crealock had said), then why did LC send an order addressed to Pulliene and not AD, I am sure that  if LC had meant for AD to take command and stay at the camp, then surely he would have addressed the order to AD and not Pulleine.

Martin agree. It must have been hard, Pulleine having his own orders, and Durnford interfering with them, must have left him a lost what to do.

CTSG.
Don't forget that Pulleine's orders were not officiated by LC as he did not bother to leave any orders for Pulleine. They were scribbled out as an afterthought by an officer who was junior to Pulleine (ie; Clery), and hence 'not official', therefor, in what way did Col Durnford interfere with Pulleine's 'unofficial' orders? Col Durnford's arrival did not have anything to do with Pulleine being at a loss as to what to do, the inept Pulleine was already at a loss at what to do many hours before Col Durnford arrived.

I woundn't say Pulleine was inept. After all nothing had happened in the camp until after Durnford had arrived. I think you would need a very strong argument if you claiming the order Pulleine was unofficial as you say.

The officer commanding British forces in South Africa (ie; LC), did not issue any orders for Pulleine, therefor the order that was scribbled out by Clery (a junior officer), cannot be classed as being official, as a junior officer (Clery), cannot tell a senior officer (Pulleine), what to do, meaning that the scribbled out order by Clery and given to Pulleine was 'unofficial'. Clery was having kittens about it and was sure he would be in big trouble, however, it appears that it was covered up in the web of lies and deciet that helped to get LC off the hook and put the blame on Col Durnford (so nothing new there then).

So what your saying, must apply to Crealock & Durnford.

OK, inept might be a bit strong, and to a degree I have some sympathy with Pulleine. He was a very good officer at what he knew best, and that was administration, but he was totally out of his depth when it came to line command. He could have done a lot better than he did many hours before the arrival of AD, his junior officers could and should have made some suggestions to him, but it appears that they were too overconfident and thought they could handle anything that came their way.

Chelmsfordthescapegoat wrote:

So what your saying, must apply to Crealock & Durnford.

Don't quite catch your drift there old chap.

If you mean that Crealock didn't make LC's orders clear in the message of the 22nd to Col Durnford, then yes, both LC and Crealock were totally at fault, Crealock for saying that LC had ordered AD to take command, and LC for not making it clear as to what he wanted AD to do on arrival at the camp, and for not reading, checking and initialing the order that Crealock had written to AD.

Okay.. What was Crealocks rank and position.

Come on Chelmy, you know as well as I do what Crealock's rank and position was, and you also know that Crealock is a proven liar, so come on, what is hiding behind this question?

Must dash, tea is ready and Star Trek is coming on.

Major Clery Senior Staff Officer to the 3rd Column, commanded by Colonel Glyn, C.B., operating against the Zulus. 

 He was at first ordered to send the order to Durnford by LC.
Crealock possibly mentioned Clery's rank would allow that.

However do we know for sure that Glyn didn't order Clery to to write and send the order/ instructions to Pulleine. Either way Pulleine done what he was ordered to do. Of course we also have Gardner returning to the camp, with an order that was address to Pulleine to send supplies. 

Lieutenant-Colonel J. North Crealock, Acting Military Secretary.

Durnford was not under the command of Glyn he was under command of LC
Therefore LC ordered Crealock to send the order. 

Tea is ready! I love that old British saying

Yes, Crealock intervened about Clery issuing an order to a senior officer and a column commander and then wrote it himself, however, LC should have made sure that Crealock had conveyed to AD what he meant AD to do once he arrived at the camp, but he did not do that, and as a result it left AD in a sort of limbo, maybe that is why AD sent out a runner to try to get some sort of confirmation from LC.

Glyn didn't order Clery to write an order to Pulleine, and neither did LC, Clery took it upon himself as an afterthought and scribbled out an order that was therefor unofficial, however, as you say, Pulleine stuck to it.

Yes, Gardner was sent back with a message from LC that was addressed to Pulleine, so if LC had wanted Col Durnford to take command and stay at the camp he would surely have addressed it to AD and not Pulleine.

Everyone was under the command of LC.

By the way, the tea was very nice.

Pulleine was under the command of Glyn. You sound sure Glyn didn't order Clery to write the order. What's you source for this Martin.

The order to Durnford was clear and to the point. There was nothing else for Dunford to do, than move to the camp, if LC had expected anything else of Durnford he would have said so, he even could have send further instructions to Durnford via Gardner, he didn't. Whatever Durnford done outside of the order was done off his own back.

It seems we are going around again in circles.

John.

The source is from Clery himself, he was under the impression that he would be in deep trouble for doing what he did (ie; writing an order to a senior officer without getting the authority of either Glyn or LC). It is on the forum somewhere John, in fact it's not all that long back since it was posted, I haven't got my books at hand, so try the search box, I am sure it is in one of the DWHC topics.

John, it is obvious that the Crealock order to Durnford makes some sort of sense to you, but to many others it is not very clear at all. So can you please explain to us all what the order means, and give us all, in your own opinion, what was Durnford supposed to do once he arrived at the camp?

LC had divide the camp.

The camp contained equipment needed to carry the 3rd column to Ulundi.

Durnford was in the area of RD. not doing much apart from collecting wagons.

LC being a military thinking man, ordered Durnford to the camp at Isandlwana, to Strenthen / Reinforce. I can't understand why members think there must have been something else for Durnford to do. Perhaps there was prior to the order received on the 22nd, and no doubt he would have reverted back to his prior order if the attack on the camp hadn't taken place.

If LC had intended on using Durnford, in any other capacity he would not have ordered him to the camp.

A major question for me is this.

If Durnford had remained in the camp as ordered, would the Zulus have attacked. ?

John wrote:

LC had divide the camp.

The camp contained equipment needed to carry the 3rd column to Ulundi.

Durnford was in the area of RD. not doing much apart from collecting wagons.

LC being a military thinking man, ordered Durnford to the camp at Isandlwana, to Strenthen / Reinforce. I can't understand why members think there must have been something else for Durnford to do. Perhaps there was prior to the order received on the 22nd, and no doubt he would have reverted back to his prior order if the attack on the camp hadn't taken place.

If LC had intended on using Durnford, in any other capacity he would not have ordered him to the camp.

A major question for me is this.

If Durnford had remained in the camp as ordered, would the Zulus have attacked. ?

John, on your first point about LC dividing the camp, that had nothing to do with AD, that was LC's decision.

The wagons were there and so were the oxen to move the equipment along to LC's next camp, and LC sent Gardner back with a message addressed to Pulleine to do just that, if LC had wanted Durnford to take command and stay at the camp, then he would have addressed it to Durnford and not Pulleine.

Durnford was obeying his orders and following up behind LC in readiness for himself and Bengough to assist LC in the attack on the Matyanas.

Where does it say in the order that Durnford was to strengthen or reinforce the camp? If you read all the prior orders you will see that the order of the 22nd is also part of them, however, both LC and Crealock did not make things clear in the order, so Durnford was obliged to refer back to the prior orders to try to make any sort of sense of the order of the 22nd, maybe that is why he sent a runner off to LC in order to try to get proper confirmation.

Again, moving Durnford up to the camp was in preperation for the combined attack ie; LC, Bengough and Durnford, on the Matyanas.

You say that if Durnford had remained in camp AS ORDERED, would the zulu's have attacked.

John, please show us where it says in the order that Durnford was ORDERED TO STAY IN THE CAMP.

Martin, you are looking for something that is not there and never has been.
Durnford may have well been and independent commander. But he was still under the command of LC who via Crealock had ordered him to the camp. Can you honestly say, that LC would have left unclear orders if he had a particular part for Durnford to play. All others orders prior to the one on the 22nd were understood by Durnford. So why would he not understand the one on the 22nd.  The fact Durnford stated " I am down because I'm left be hind" that tells me he totally understood LC order.  He continues by adding " But we shall see" 
A very dangerous statement to make, more so when we take into account his actions at isandlwana.  

PS the order didn't tell Durnford to take command. He did?

You get lost in transit, but trying to tie in the 22nd orders to prior orders. LC was not going into action prior to the 22nd.

I know it was LC decision to divide the camp. It was also LC decision to order Durnford to Isandlwana.

And if Clery had been allowed to send the original message as dictated by LC. Strenthen would have come into play.

Please show me where in the order  it says he can leave the camp?

Simple order "Move to the camp"

John.

There had been various meetings, discussions and orders between LC and Durnford prior to the 22nd, it is known that LC wanted Durnford and Bengough to assist him (LC), in a three pronged attack on the Matyanas. The order of the 22nd even says that Bengough should be making his move, and it also says that Durnford should move up to the camp, and that LC will be about 10 miles away. Now, with all this in mind, what would you surmise if you had been Durnford and received an order like this?

There were no other orders waiting at the camp for Durnford, and when Pulleine said that he was sorry he had come because he would now be in command, Durnford made it clear that he would not interfere with Pulleines command and that he would not be staying at the camp, which shows that Durnford was under the impression that LC was making his move against the Matyanas that were about 10 miles away, and that he and Bengough were to assist in the attack. With Durnford being the senior officer he would have been deemed to be in command whilst he was at the camp, and no doubt any suggestion he made would most likely have been taken has being an order. Now when Pulleine gives him the reports of zulu's in the area, he does the right thing in sending out his own men to try to get a better idea of what they are up to, and that is when he gets the report of zulu's heading in LC's direction. What is he supposed to do about that? Let them carry on and maybe cut off LC or attack his rear or flank, or maybe join up with the zulu's that everyone thought LC was suppose to be finding and attacking? He did not have much other option than to try to find out what they were doing and where they were going, and trying to cut them off before they could could be of any trouble to the General.

Yes, maybe if Clery had been allowed to send the original order that LC said he was going to send to Durnford, then that would have made things clear to AD, however, through Crealock interfering, everything went pear shaped and the order became very unclear, but LC could have corrected it if he had only read and checked it before it was sent, but he failed to do that, so the order to Durnford was very unclear as to what LC wanted Durnford to do once at the camp. And don't forget that LC did not remember to issue any orders for Pulleine, so maybe he also did not remember to correct the order that Crealock had sent earlier by leaving any change to the orders and letting Durnford know exactly what he wanted him to do when he got to the camp. It's a case of Crealock and LC not working together properly, and not issuing or leaving any clear instructions for Durnford on his arrival at the camp, maybe that is why Durnford sent a runner to LC, to try and get some confirmation of what he wanted him to do when he got to the camp.

John

Simple question. You get a report that a column of Zulus are heading towards the General, you have a mounted force, what do you do?

Steve

Me. I would obey my orders. You never know what the repercussions might be if you didn't. Isandlwana is a prime example of why you shouldn't disobay orders.


I may send a messenger to warn the General,

Yes your honour, I sat and watched with my mounted men while the General and his force were wiped out. And why was that Colonel Durnford? Well, you see, the General had not ordered me to do anything. Oh, well that's all right then. Next case.

Steve

Nice one Steve.

impi, exactly which orders did Durnford disobey?

rusteze wrote:

Yes your honour, I sat and watched with my mounted men while the General and his force were wiped out. And why was that Colonel Durnford?  Well, you see, the General had not ordered me to do anything. Oh, well that's all right then. Next case.

Steve

All the kings horses and all the kings men ( Plus a healthy swab of colonials) wiped out by 400/600 Zulus. Now that would really have upset the civilians at breakfast!
Speculative milord.

Is there an argument to be made in defence of Col Durnford that A) Yes he was ordered to iSandlwana ( for whatever reason). B) He actually never left the camp, he merely launched a number of intelligence gathering patrols.
His wagons were at isandlwana, ergo home is where the hearth is, that was his intended base to which he would return after his patrols.
Technically therefore he never left camp.


the words Petrol, Fire and pour come to mind

Come on Frank, you know that won't wash!,

rusteze wrote:

Yes your honour, I sat and watched with my mounted men while the General and his force were wiped out. And why was that Colonel Durnford?  Well, you see, the General had not ordered me to do anything. Oh, well that's all right then. Next case.

Steve

Steve, your in what if land again.

Morning Chard
Interesting thought though. Prompted by Steve taking things to a court setting, its an arguable case in a strictly legal sense.
Take it a step further or backwards really, Durnford was ordered up to Rorkes Drift and on the morning of the 22nd trots of up the Biggarsberg. His Camp was still at RD so he never 'left' the camp only went out on business, so to speak. One more step: on the way to the Biggarsberg he is attacked by the Zulu. How do we catergorise that situation, relative to iSandlwana......... Oh yes on the way he passes Spalding and says" Even though Im senior to you Im not taking command of the camp".

Hows the washing ?

Cheers Mate

But what you a Steve are talking about, is not what happened.

It is except for being attacked by the Zulus and chatting to Spalding (Sure Steves is speculative but mines basic fact)

Cheers

True, but move forward to the 22nd Jan 1879, to about the time Durnford arrived at Isandlwana.

Sorry, but so long as you guys can only focus on what actually happened you are never going to understand Durnford's actions. They did not know then that the camp was going to be attacked - plenty of evidence of that has already been posted. They had to find out and they could not do that by linking arms around the tents and waiting as you would have them do. Try putting yourself in their shoes.

It is not at all fanciful to imagine that Chelmsford could have been wiped out. We know the supposed 400-600 was in fact the left horn which numbered in thousands. Who is to say the rest of the Zulu army would not have orientated itself in that direction as well?

All this nonsense about not speculating "what if". What do you think the officers in the camp were doing at the time?

And incidentally Frank is quite right, nobody left the area of the camp, they went no further than the pickets and patrols had already done.

Steve

Morning Steve
Quote: "It is not at all fanciful to imagine that Chelmsford could have been wiped out. We know the supposed 400-600 was in fact the left horn which numbered in thousands."
Ah again one of the imponderables. I have attempted to show else where that the 400/600 were in fact spotted on the plain and were retreating North down the Quabe valley, ostensibly to join the main impi. Quite possibly they joined the left horn then turned onto Durnfords advancing column.
So I would with all due humility submit that no we don't know that they were part of the Left Horn.

Chard
The question I posed to you was what was the difference between Durnford riding out from RD on 'Patrol' and him doing the same at iSandlwana, difference in terms of his orders and his status as a column commander that is.

Cheers

Understood Frank. But my scenario is that the 4-600 would join with the thousands coming through the Quabe (as you say) and could have as easily headed towards the General as Isandhlwana. Do you not agree?

The idea from some that, had Durnford not encountered the left horn, the camp may not have been attacked at all, surely begs the question of what the 20,000 Zulus would have done. Had a picnic and gone home I suppose? Or turned all of their force on Chelmsford.

Durnford had no option than to try and find out their intentions.

Steve

Bonjour Steve,
Attractive theory. The problem is that ALL Zulus testimonies assert that no attack was planned for January 22.
That is why I have some doubts with the thesis of "TMFH".
Unless your theory arises after the discovery of the Royal Zulu army by Raw.
Cheers
Frédéric

Steve,
Maybe I did not understand your message. If this is the case, sorry.
Cheers.
Frédéric

Steve/Frederic
Your quite right the Zulu testimonies DO emphasize that no attack was PLANED. But plans change, Chelmsford had no plans to rush of to Mangeni, he was PLANING on a circuit of the nyoni plateau on the 22nd. However both the Generals reacted to a changing situation. Chelmsford to the erroneous information from Dartnel and Tshingwayo to the situation in the camp. Its very clear that reading Melokazulu that Tshingwayo issued orders for his companies to move into start positions. So yes he was reacting to changing situations.
Raws sighting probably did precipitate the attack, but by possibly minutes, not days. Durnford didn't attack the left horn the left horn attacked him. So long before Durnford got near the Bivouac area the left horn was on the moved, they had already covered quite a distance when Durnford met up with them.
Steve I do agree that the 4/600 did join up with the left horn, but again we look in hindsight. Durnford didn't know anything about the left horn, all he knew was 4 to 600 men were ahead of him. The possibilities that the left horn may have diverted from an attack to sprint 12 miles across the plain to have a go at Chelmsford is pretty remote, they were the left horn and had been tasked to a specific purpose. So no I wouldn't really see then as a threat and I don't in my heart of hearts believe that Durnford saw the perceived, as opposed to real, threat as being life threatening on Chelmsford.

Cheers all

Frank,
As you know, the key point of your theory is that the attack on the camp was in progress before the discovery of the Zulu army by RAW. To be honest, this point of view is opposed to my belief... and the eminent Ian Knight ...I have to  !!!
About your last point, I agree that Durnford did not perceive his meeting with the left horn as an attack against Chelsmford.

Cheers.
Frédéric

Hi Frederic
Mehlokazulu
" Presently I heard Tsingwayo give orders for the Tulwana and Ngyaza regiments to assemble. When they had done so he gave orders for the others to assemble and advance in the direction of the English camp."
This is before they were fired on by Raw etc. So Mehlokazula is pretty solid in commenting the advance was underway. A pretty good time line can be made linking the piquets reports of Zulu horsemen and Mehlokazulus words of advancing on horses.

Cheers

Frank

I bow to your knowledge of the ground, but bear with me for a moment. As Durnford turns up the Quabe Valley he believes a Zulu force is heading towards Chelmsford, he believes it is one of three Zulu columns that were on the heights/plateau. He believes the other two Zulu columns are retreating (in what direction he does not know). He has not yet met the force heading in his direction, but he is about to. They begin their attack and they crash into Durnford (perhaps , as you say, a few minutes earlier than they might have because of Raw). As he engages and falls back he knows it is the left horn because he sees that the rest of the Zulu force has not retreated at all, it is heading for the camp across to his left.

My contention is that, prior to being attacked by the left horn, he does not know that is what it is. It is a force that may be heading for Chelmsford. What do you estimate the difference in distance is from the mouth of the Quabe to Isandhlwana as compared to where Chelmsford had been operating (not necessarily as far as the Mangeni camp site itself).

Steve

Steve, I am with you on this my friend.

No one knew the size of the zulu army about to attack the camp, the 4/600 was what was thought to be the size of the force up there, however, I seem to recall that previous reports had estimated even more than that.

Frank is right about changing circumstances altering the situation at the time, ie; LC was not planning to go off and assist Dartnel, but circumstances changed that, and he thought he had the chance to bring the main zulu army to battle, likewise the zulu commander was not actually planning to attack on the 22nd, but circumstances changed that, ie; LC setting off from the camp with over half the force, and leaving it practically undefended, so no doubt he saw his chance for a quick victory.

Durnford got the report of a column of zulu's heading in the direction of LC, he had to act on that information, and he set off to find out what they were up to and where they were going, he could not take the chance that they might just be on their way to attack LC.

I know that Durnford and the zulu's on the hills did not know that LC had sent out pockets of men in search of the illusive main army of zulu's that Dartnel thought he had discovered and what LC also believed, but a body of zulu's of 4/600 could have easily mopped up pockets of men strung out like sitting ducks, and even 4/600 attacking from LC's rear would have been a bit of a shock coming from behind, so I believe that Durnford did the right thing in setting out from the camp to try to find out what these zulu's were doing, and intercepting them before they could be a possible threat to LC.

If only LC had obeyed his own orders that camps were to be entrenched or laagered, then things just might have been different at iSandlwana. Just look at the great defence Durnford was making in the donga before his ammo started to run out and he was getting outflanked on both sides, now if only they had made use of the dongas and the empty wagons and of course the natural outcrops of rocks and various hills to defend the camp, there might have been a different result. And if Pulleine had acted a lot earlier to try to arrange some of the empty wagons along with the dongas to make some sort of defences, again, things might have been different.

Hi Steve
There is a lot we can put on a time line unfortunatly the various messages that were coming into camp has so far managed to elude me. We don't know the time span in between those messages.
From Cochrane the last seems to be 'they are retreating in all directions.' The others he refers to in General as coming from the scouts on the hills to the left but nothing from the men on top of iSandlwana ( that because they couldn't see onto the plateau).
According to Cochrane in his supplementary report, changed from his evidence, the last message was 'The columns are separating, one moving to the left rear and one towards the general. According to him this one was the one Durnford reacted to. Baring in mind these reports were coming from the Nyoni, Raw, Roberts etc were on the plateau and no mention was made of any of those incidents in any statement, Nyanda, Raw, Hamer. Therefore those Zulu activities would have had to have occurred in one of two time zones, before Raw etc arrived on the plateau or after the impi was discovered. If before then it cant have been the statement that caused Durnford to react, the times just don't fit either. If afterwards it would mean that the attack was in full swing, the column moving towards the general would have been the left horn the one moving to 'the left rear' the right horn.
Assuming that later was the case then for Durnford to react, mount up his troops and ride half way down the Quabe to meet the left horn is not feasible at all. That's a fare old distance. On top of which firing would have been heard of Raw engaging the chest.
That would leave the timing of those reports to before Raw arrived on the plateau, and that would mean a long interval before Durnford reacted ( he had breakfast in between).
So Cochrans statements have some gaping time lapses.
Again I would come back to my earlier post regarding Higginson and the other testimonies providing the reason for Durnford to have left the camp. I cant find anything that would change my mind on that. So again in my humble opinion the reports that caused Durnford to leave would be the last from the iSandlwana hill itself sighting the 400 on the plain.
While I was working on the iSandlwana app I had access to my sons IT department and started building a 3D timeline, those messages and Smith Dorriens testimony on the fugitives trail were the impossible ones to fit in. Still bloody are. When all else fails...............guess I reckon.

Cheers mate

If he hadn't left the camp, he wouldnt have run into any horns.

Thanks Frank. It bears some more study doesn't it. A 3D timeline - I'm not sure Einstein thought of that one - suggest you book some time on the Large Hadron Collider. After the Higgs will come the Allewell.

Steve

Chard1879,

Chard1879 wrote:

If he hadn't left the camp, he wouldnt have run into any horns.

And in that case the entire camp would have be surrounded by the enveloping i'mpondo zankhomo and the entire British & Colonial force would have been totally destroyed.

The late David Rattray used to say it would be wrong to what if this battle, with which I concur.  The tide of this battle - in my opinion - doesn't turn until Durnford is forced to retire from the donga, up until this point the British and their Colonial allies had the upper hand.

Just my thoughts though.

John Y.

John Young wrote:

Chard1879,

Chard1879 wrote:

If he hadn't left the camp, he wouldnt have run into any horns.

And in that case the entire camp would have be surrounded by the enveloping i'mpondo zankhomo and the entire British & Colonial force would have been totally destroyed.

The late David Rattray used to say it would be wrong to what if this battle, with which I concur.  The tide of this battle - in my opinion - doesn't turn until Durnford is forced to retire from the donga, up until this point the British and their Colonial allies had the upper hand.

Just my thoughts though.

John Y.

Bonsoir ,
So for you the Zulu attack was in progress before the discovery of the Zulu army by Raw.
Cheers

Steve
Its actually not that complex, you have it in your notebooks already, just a series of pages with notations all in the correct sequence, then make them see through so you can see a time series and in depth all the participants and actions a link on the X axis, the Y axis and finally the Z. Makes it interesting to then compare all the movements and the differing interpretations. Unfortunatly my son got back before I could finish it of, along with the 3D camp map. One day I will get around to finishing them.
Higgs Bosun 'Phht' childs play