Latest topics | » THE DISTINGUISHED CONDUCT MEDAL![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Sep 05, 2024 11:16 pm by Julian Whybra » 61451 John Evans. Able Seaman.![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:15 pm by Matthew Turl » 9312 Sapper H Cuthbert 5th Field Coy RE![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Sep 04, 2024 11:53 am by Julian Whybra » Who’s who in this photo?![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Sep 03, 2024 12:44 pm by ianwood » Sir Robert William Jackson ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Sep 02, 2024 10:24 am by Julian Whybra » Memorial to Wolseley![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 8:47 pm by John Young » Lieutenant & Adjutant Spencer Frederick Chichester, 2nd 21st![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:52 pm by Rory Reynolds » Last of the 24th at Isandhlwana![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:51 am by Julian Whybra » On this day 28th August, 1879![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 7:28 am by Julian Whybra » Alfred Ducat - N.N.C. Help with plotting his career![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 29, 2024 6:58 pm by Rory Reynolds » Corporal James Frowen Williams F Company. ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 29, 2024 8:46 am by Julian Whybra » Army Pay Department Personnel![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 25, 2024 11:51 pm by Julian Whybra » Baron Von Steitencron![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 25, 2024 10:32 am by Julian Whybra » Troop Despatch ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 24, 2024 10:15 pm by Eddie » Private 35/1430 James Priddle 1/13th Regiment![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 24, 2024 8:09 am by Roobie257 » Zulu powder horn![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:22 pm by Rob D » Telescope v. field glasses![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 23, 2024 7:07 am by Julian Whybra » A Hungarian soldier in the Zulu War (?)![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Aug 21, 2024 5:14 am by 90th » 90th foot sgt T. Collins 214![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 3:04 pm by johnman » Zulu "Corps"![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:43 am by Hobbes » amaKwenke amabutho![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 11:23 am by Hobbes » A story regarding Younghusband's charge. Hearsay or a possibility? ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 18, 2024 5:48 pm by Danny1960 » Hill of the Sphinx for sale open to offers![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 17, 2024 6:44 pm by ciroferrara » Information help please ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 16, 2024 4:44 pm by Roobie257 » Capt. Geo. Shepstone![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 13, 2024 4:14 pm by Julian Whybra » Thomas William george 58th regiment 1880’s SA![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 13, 2024 12:05 pm by Alstar » Private John Scott 24th Regiment a fugitive at large![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:50 pm by Julian Whybra » Sergt. Woods N.N.C.![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 09, 2024 4:41 pm by Julian Whybra » Who led the Naval Brigade at Gingindlovu ?![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 08, 2024 9:32 pm by Herbert West » Herbert's Zulu war models![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 08, 2024 7:06 pm by Herbert West » Studies in the Zulu War volumes![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Aug 07, 2024 2:31 pm by Julian Whybra » 80th Foot Information Request![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 06, 2024 6:28 pm by Bill8183 » Henderson and the NNH at Rorke's Drift ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Aug 05, 2024 7:53 pm by SRB1965 » Hamilton Browne's birthday![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Aug 05, 2024 2:41 pm by Julian Whybra » 4,000 registered members.![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Aug 04, 2024 6:21 pm by Julian Whybra |
September 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | | | | | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » Memorial to Wolseley![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sun Sep 01, 2024 8:47 pm by John Young » On this day 28th August, 1879![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Wed Aug 28, 2024 10:37 am by John Young » Alfred Ducat - N.N.C. Help with plotting his career![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Mon Aug 26, 2024 1:34 pm by Rory Reynolds » Zulu powder horn![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Fri Aug 23, 2024 5:22 pm by Rob D » Troop Despatch ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 22, 2024 12:18 am by Eddie » Who’s who in this photo?![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Tue Aug 20, 2024 3:53 am by Danny1960 » Hill of the Sphinx for sale open to offers![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Sat Aug 17, 2024 6:44 pm by ciroferrara » Information help please ![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 15, 2024 7:40 pm by Roobie257 » amaKwenke amabutho![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/fa/empty.gif) Thu Aug 15, 2024 6:54 pm by Julian Whybra |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
| | Additional ammunition per company | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1235 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Additional ammunition per company Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:42 pm | |
| Ok, so this is with the power of hindsight and I assume that 70 rounds per man was deemed sufficient based on historical precedents.
But why did not each company have a small establishment to carry a couple of boxes of reserve ammunition, as standard.
This may have reduced the fire power by a handful of men but it would have made the company more resilient (and self sufficient) in the field.
Does anyone know if this was done post Isandlwana (or post Zulu War)?
Obviously in prepared positions/deployments – Khambula, Ulundi etc I assume additional ammunition supplies were made ready.
Cheers
Sime
|
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | rusteze
![rusteze](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/134-77.png)
Posts : 2871 Join date : 2010-06-02
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Additional ammunition per company Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:07 am | |
| There is very little in the Field Exercise Manual 1877 about ammunition re-supply. It says "Serving out ammunition from the regimental reserve must be carefully and frequently practised." That's it! There may be guidance elsewhere of course.
I just wonder whether two boxes per company would make a significant difference - on my calculation that's about 14 extra rounds per man? Four men required to carry the boxes and distribute seems a high price to pay. Easier perhaps just to hand out 14 extra rounds in the first place?
Steve |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1235 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Additional ammunition per company Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:59 pm | |
| Hi,
I think 14 extra rounds is around 20% more 'shots' per man and I feel I would rather have potentially 1600 (or maybe 1200 - I can't remember if it was 80 x 10 or 60 x10 per box?) rounds per company, at the cost of handful of riflemen - that's assuming that it would be infantry doing the carrying rather than bandsmen etc.
I have read that 70 rounds was judged enough to carry without encumbering the soldier and that the bullets in the expense pouch tended to flirt out (if the soldier was running).
Its all academic anyway, I spose, if you think that ammo depletion only had a small part to play (if at all) with the collapse of the firing line, but readily available ammo would have made the withdrawal and 'stands' of the 24th at least more practical.
I spose the ammunition expenditure at other battles (apart from RD) was quite low
I'm just fascinated if there was an 'official' response to the ammo failure scenario, and if nothing was introduced, is this an indicator that it was considered (at the time) to be a red herring.
Cheers
Sime |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | xhosa2000
![xhosa2000](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2147-96.jpg)
Posts : 1183 Join date : 2015-11-24
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Additional ammunition per company Fri Aug 11, 2017 10:46 pm | |
| |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | barry
![barry](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/695-62.jpg)
Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Ammunition failure Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:54 am | |
| Hi SRB, Indeed, you are right, more ammo available in an uninterrupted supply at the firing would have changed the outcome of that ignominious battle significantly. Now there were a number of reason for this serious problem not being identified . One was dealt with in the "cover up" exposed quite copiously by l and Q in ZV, but another was the fragmented and really quite disfunctional and ineffective ammunition supply 'system" on that day, a factor related to the lack of any proper battlefield command and control. Parochialism , would you believe it, also crept in, some units refusing to help the brothers in arms with ammo. All factors which "his lordship" would have found to be most embarrassing, so this was all, expectedly, swept under the carpet . The "ammunition failure" thread is dealt with extensively earlier on this forum gives a lot of interesting information on this subject.
regards
barry |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | SRB1965
![SRB1965](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/2457-70.png)
Posts : 1235 Join date : 2017-05-13 Age : 59 Location : Uttoxeter - the last place God made and he couldn't be bothered to finish it.....
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Additional ammunition per company Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:23 am | |
| - barry wrote:
- Indeed, you are right, more ammo available in an uninterrupted supply at the firing would have changed the outcome of that ignominious battle significantly.
Hi Barry, Thanks for the reply. I am not truely convinced that the lack of ammunition would have had a significant effect on the overall out come of the battle, when taking into account with the rolling up of the right flank, the appearance of the Zulu right horn on the saddle, coupled with the fact that when the companies closed frontage (on the firing lines) they were 'isolated' and unable to fire in support of each other - I still think it would have been a 'Home Win' - there may have been more British survivors and less Zulu ones (which is very significant to the individual, I spose). It is true that the Zulus repeatedly report that they could not get near to the 24th rallying squares until the ammo failed. I personally do not believe the ammo failed (as such) until the companies were back in the tents/camp and that no supply infrastructure would have supplied the men with sufficient ammunition. One book (Snook HCDB maybe?) argued that getting the ammo to the companies (in close action with the Zulus) was only part of the problem but distribution around the soldiers, would have been the crux. Some (Knight, Snook, L&Q? can't remember who - I really must pay attention to the books I read) argued that the 24th where 'out shot' on the firing line (at close range) by the Zulus, given the amount of firearms they had and the fact that at closer ranges, the superior benefits of the MH were largely nullified (given the cover available - long grass etc) You (or in fact I) could argue that ammunition supply to the NNMC/mounted volunteers is more important to the overall result. One thing that I have always pondered is, when the 24th QMs turned away the NNMC troopers requesting ammo, how much carbine ammo would the QMs have? Overall in the camp there would have been thousands of rounds but possibly very few in the 24ths ammo wagons. I have read that the MH carbine could take the MH rifle bullet at a push (and a sore shoulder) but I am not even sure what carbines the mounted men carried - WR, SH, MH? Part of my 'real life' is to investigate the 'root causes' of accidents in my work department (thankfully there are few and they are not very serious) but it is hard to do a Root Cause Analysis on something that happened two hours ago, when you can talk to the people involved..... Thanks a lot. Sime ps I am not being 'argumentative' - just making conversation..... |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Neil Aspinshaw
![Neil Aspinshaw](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/42-32.jpg)
Posts : 553 Join date : 2009-10-14 Location : Loughborough
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Additional ammunition per company Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:44 pm | |
| Sime
late on this but for my pennyworth
Martini Carbines were not available until March 1879 in the SA theatre, hence the adoption of the Swinburn Carbine, and I've listed the distribution of these before in previous posts. The common carbine was the Snider, not only to the irregulars, but also the Royal Artillery as their arm the Carbine Interchangeable Artillery (IC1) had not yet been officially issued until Aug 1879, its intended for-runner the Garrison Carbine had been withheld from issue and then all converted to IC1 A.C in March 1879.
So the most likely cause of ammunition not being distributed by QMs to irregulars is I have not got it, rather than you can't have it. Lt Davies comments about finding an open ammo box amongst the tens never stipulates what he actually found, or indeed where he found it from, In the Royal Artillery camp he'd find snider, so theres variables in his testimony. He obviously went away semi satisfied whatever he had.
In terms of expenditure, well no-one actually knows as nobody lived to tell the tale, but as Both Essex and Smith Dorrien both report of some degree of ammo distribution, then one can assume it was being dished out, and theres n reason to believe the officers would not carry out to the letter of the law the Field Exercise manual as Rusteze suggests. So even if the men did not have their haversacks, the minimum ammunition being carried would be 40-50 rounds, 2 x 20 in pouches and say ten in expense pouch (30 rounds simply do not fit in the pouch, theres not enough room) , even then (and there is no evidence to prove otherwise) compare to Khambula, where expenditure was average 33 round P.M then it is still not high. Lets assume they had the regulation 70 rounds, Wind forward to Maiwand the next year in three + hours some companies of the 66th fired 157 rounds per man average (Beresford Priese Company),and we know that with arguably equal or more enemy pressure. Then the duration of the battle even when severely pressed would dictate a 1.5 hours supply before replenishment with the 70 rounds they should have held.
Just facts here |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | Bromhead1879
Posts : 36 Join date : 2016-09-11
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Re: Additional ammunition per company Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:36 pm | |
| Didn't they usurp 20,000 rounds at Rourke's Drift in about 12 hours time? 4:20 p.m. till about 4 a.m.? |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | 90th
![90th](https://2img.net/u/1313/16/75/50/avatars/22-38.jpg)
Posts : 10904 Join date : 2009-04-07 Age : 68 Location : Melbourne, Australia
![Additional ammunition per company Empty](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | Subject: Additional Ammunition per Co Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:46 am | |
| Hi Bromhead Yes that's about right , I have the figures here somewhere but have given up trying to find them ! , there was only about one box left from memory , a box holds 600 rds , I remember the rate of fire over the 12 or so hours was about 15 rounds per man , per hour I think I read in Knight's ' Companion To The Anglo Zulu War ' 90th |
| ![Go down](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) | | | Additional ammunition per company | |
|
Similar topics | ![+](https://2img.net/i/empty.gif) |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |