pvt . J. Hind. KIA ISANDLWANA.

hi all
Thought you may find this interesting.

http://www.historikorders.com/zulu.html
cheers 90th.

90th thanks for the link. Lots of infoe:

Nice one 90th, as John says loads of information :)

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ZULU MEDAL NAMED TO: 1857. PTE. J. HIND. 1/24th. FOOT.

Very nice site , very nice prices ! anyone buying ? I suppose in time they will only increase in value .

Hi gary.
Yes, the medals are very expensive on this site , as you may know , you can pick them up
cheaper on other dealer sites on the net.
cheers 90th.

$9995, thats about £7000 not bad, expect around £8K nowadays
Here's my Isandlwana KIA, 883 J Kempster 1/24th.

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Neil when you say here's my. Does that mean you actually have it.

Neil. 883 J Kempster 1/24th. Is he related in anyway.

if a KIA for a private soldier is GBP 7000 , how much does an officer's medal bring ? Do then come onto the market , and are the whereabouts of the medals of Pulleine and the company commanders known ?

also the survivors - do we know who has those medals ?

just interested - way out of my budget .

I expect double the price for an officers medal. But what did happen to those medals of who was KIA. At Isandlwana.
Good question Gary.

Old historian 2
Yes, had to talk to the wife nicely.

I have also the medal to Cooper 2/24th, promoted to Corporal at Rorkes Drift 23.2.1879.
He left Isandlwana morning with Chelsmford, presumably he was moved to make up the numbers of Pope's company.

Hi littlehand.
From what I can gather the next of kin picked up the effects , so I assume the medals would have been picked up
the same way. Over the years many were lost or sold to pawn shops to make some extra money when families were
struggling. Others may never have been picked up. The medals that werent claimed were sent back to the mint and
melted back down basically straight away. Others were donated back to the recipients regiment .
cheers 90th.

So does anyone have any idea how many are in circulation , including the more "famous" ones ?

Another good question Gary. It will give us all something to research. I have read that the medals of those KIA at Isandlwana are sought after. So well done Neil.

No campaign medal was instituted exclusively for the Zulu War. Bloody and hard-fought as it was, the War was no doubt regarded in Britain as but a part of the general fighting that took place from 1877 to 1879 between the various African tribes in Southern Africa and their British and Colonial overlords.

In 1854 royal sanction had been given for the award of a medal to the survivors of British regular troops who had served in any one of the three campaigns of 1835-36, 1846-47, or 1850-53, on the Eastern Frontier of the Cape Province.

Designed by William and L.C. Wyon, this medal bears on the obverse a beautiful portrayal of Victoria as the young queen, wearing a coronet. The reverse shows a lion, half-crouching watchfully, behind a protea bush, with the date '1853' in the exergue.

In 1880 it was ordained that the same medal should he awarded to all personnel - Colonial volunteers and native levies as well as British regulars - who had served in any of the campaigns in South Africa between September 1877 and December 1879, namely the Gaika / Galeka War, the Northern Border War, the lst and 2nd Sekukuni Wars, the Moirosi's Mountain campaign in Basutoland, and the Zulu War.

A bar or clasp was to be attached to the suspender of the medal hearing the date or dates of the year or years in which the recipient had actually served in any of those campaigns. Military personnel who had been mobilized in Natal, but had not crossed the Tugela River into Zululand, were to receive the medal without any bar.

The original Army Order, no 103 of August 1880, made no mention of any change in design of the earlier model. However, the date '1853' was clearly inappropriate, and it was therefore replaced in the reverse exergue by a military trophy consisting of a Zulu ox-hide shield and four crossed assegais.

Participants in the Zulu War received this medal without a bar if they remained on the Natal side of the Tugela, or with the bar '1879' if they actually saw service in Zululand.

One can say with confidence that a medal without a bar is a medal awarded for service in connection with the Zulu War, albeit not combatant service. Problems arise, however, when one is faced with a medal bearing the bar '1879', for the same bar was given with the medal for the Moirosi's Mountain campaign in Basutoland, and for the Second Sekukuni War in the North-Eastern Transvaal.

Unless the service details of the recipient are known, the only way to establish whether the bar '1879' was indeed for the Zulu War is to look at the name of the unit (which will be found engraved, together with the recipient's rank and name, on the edge of the medal) and to check that the unit concerned was in Zululand.

Imperial troops who participated included two regiments of cavalry and fifteen infantry battalions (see Appendix I), together with a composite Naval Brigade, detachments of the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers, and members of the various supporting commissariat, ordnance, and medical services.

In addition there were a considerable number of 'odd men' - often officers -drawn from a wide variety of British regular and militia units who were sent out as members of the staff or as observers. Some enthusiastic adventure-seekers qualified for the medal by reaching the front line entirely on their own initiative, and even at their own expense!

The Natal colonists also played their part. Forces called out on full mobilization to meet the threat of Cetewayo's estimated 40 000 warriors included the Natal Mounted Police (a semi-military formation, and the only 'regulars) and all the Natal Volunteer units then in existence.

The Frontier Light Horse and units such as Raaff's Transvaal Rangers and the Kaffrarian Rifles came from the other colonies. Special reserve units were established in Pietermaritzburg and Durban for local garrison duty and large numbers of Natal Natives were enlisted. (see Appendix II).


The Campaign Medal for the Zulu War - the medal for "South Africa 1877-79", with bar "1879".
Left: Obverse of medal awarded to Lieut. W. Pool, Border Horse, killed in action on Hlobane Mountain.
Right: Reverse of medal awarded to Trooper J. Deane, Natal Carbineers, killed in action at Isandlwana.

The ultimate - if in practice unattainable - collection of medals of the Zulu War would include medals to all these formations. It would include not only all the 'odd-man' units on the Imperial side - to some of which only one medal was issued - but also the many small Natal units bearing such glamorous names as Carbutt's Border Rangers, Isipingo Mounted Rifles, and Weenen Yeomanry.

Alternatively, the collector can aim to represent in his collection a recipient from each of the major actions of the war. This theme involves considerable research, and final verification of participation in a particular action - unless the recipient was a casualty - can be tantalizingly difficult in the absence of personal letters or a diary. One can, however, consult the full casualty rolls for Isandlwana or Hlobane Mountain, and Chard's report on the defence of Rorke's Drift contains a comprehensive nominal roll of the defenders. Press reports, regimental histories, church or battlefield memorials - all these may provide useful information. It is interesting to record that whereas Colonial Forces Order no. 169 (issued at Kingwilliamstown on 14th September, 1880, to announce the granting of the medal) stated specifically that 'the Medal will be granted to survivors only ...', no such restrictive condition appeared in the original Imperial Army Order no.103 of 1st August, 1880. Whatever happened in the Cape of Good Hope, it is certain that medals were given to the next-of-kin of men killed in action in Zululand. Medals to Isandlwana casualties, in particular, are much sought after and command a substantial premium.

DECORATIONS FOR THE ZULU WAR

In 1879, apart from promotion in the field, or brevet rank for officers, the only available means of rewarding gallantry or distinguished service was by the award of either the Victoria Cross or the Distinguished Conduct Medal. Both of these decorations had been instituted at the end of the Crimean War. (The Distinguished Service Order was established only in 1886 and the Military Cross and Military Medal followed much later, during the 1st World War).

The Zulu War saw the award of twenty-three Victoria Crosses and 15 Distinguished Conduct Medals. The story of Lieutenants Coghill and Melvill who died fighting to the last at Fugitives Drift after their gallant attempt to save the colours when their Regiment, the 1st Battalion 24th Regiment (later The South Wales Borderers) was overrun at Isandlwana, and who were given the V.C. by King Edward VII in 1907, when posthumous awards were first authorized, is well known. It was at Fugitive's Drift, too, that Private Wassall of the 80th Regiment of Foot earned his Cross rescuing a comrade in the wild fury of the flooded Tugela under a hail of Zulu bullets.

The historic and emotion-stirring defence of Rorke's Drift on the evening of the Isandlwana disaster of the 22nd January was marked by the award of no less than 11 Victoria Crosses and 5 Distinguished Conduct Medals - an all-time record for a single action. The disasters at Hlobane Mountain and at the Intombi River likewise brought their quota of 'Valour beyond the call of duty', as did the epic victories of Kambula and Ulundi. As will be seen from the attached schedule, (Appendix III), of the major actions of the Zulu War only the gallant defence of Eshowe, and the battle on the Inyezane River, near Gingindlovu, on the 2nd April, failed to gain the distinction of a decoration. It is particularly interesting to note that two black African NCOs of the Natal Native Horse won the DCM - at Kambula and on the Umfolozi River before Ulundi respectively.

From the South African Military History Society

hi all.
There are about 10 dealers I check every 3 mths or so , Last time I checked which was back in August , there were
about 30 - 40 medals for sale, I will have a closer look after dinner :lol!:
cheers 90th.

hi all
I checked my records from the 16 sites which I look at every 3 mths or thereabouts from the 18 AUG and at that time
there were 54 medals available . The site I posted a couple of days ago " HISTORIKORDERS.COM had 16 for sale.
Which included 2 CAPT"S and 1 LT , also 1 SGT. From the other 51 medals available there was 1 CAPT, 1 2ND LT,
and 1 SGT. The rest a mixture of PVTS , GUNNERS , SEAMAN , BUGLERS , DRIVERS, BOMBADIERS, TROOPERS,
DRUMMERS, PAYMASTERS, ARMY MED CORPS.
cheers 90th.

As with any medal who'd value sky rockets due to the recipients demise (or survival) of a famous action, the South Africa madal is no exception. Over the years medals have been "re-named", Isandlwana casualties and RD defenders are not immune from that.

Unscrupilous delaers have filed off the name of some private in say the Buffs and had it re-named adding 30 times its value, always look for the signs of filing, if in doubt check the dimensions as any taken off will make the size vary or the edges will have flat spots. always ask for written proof of purchase and written agreement to money back if the edal is proven false. most bone-fide dealers will have no problem with that.


Breaon is a good first call if you want to have a quick check, Martin and celia have most of the officers medals involved at Isandlwana, plus alot of other ranks, mine will be put on loan there shortly. Do check first if you are looking to buy one to ensure they do not have it first!.

I remember many moons ago Qtr Master Pullens appearing on the antiques roadshow.


St Henry Gallaghers RD fame went recently for £38,000.

24th medals demand far higher prices than other regiments, but inreality if it is 1/24th they were either in garrison elsewhere, or bought in to re-constitute those companies lost at Isandlwana, and, were ulikely to have seen a shot fired, in many cases these will not have the 1879 clasp, or in the case of the 2/24th out with chelmsford, ok it could be argued that they were involved in the battle but the fringes.

I have sen quite a few 2/24th with the 1878 clasp as they may have left before Jan 1879.

Neill. Would it be possible to get photos from Martin (Not sure who he is) of the medals in-question? Or a least a list of names of those whose medals are in the Museum.
If some could send me Martin's contact details i will ask him.

G.

Major Martin Everett TD FRGS
South Wales Borderers Museum
The Barracks
Brecon
Powys
LD3 7EB
Tel: 01874 613310
martin.everett@rrw.org.uk
swb@rrw.org.uk

Mr Greaves.

Martin Everett .
Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh
Brecon LD3 7EB

email: swb@rrw.org.uk

Much-obliged CTSG.

G.

So does there exist anywhere a list of the whereabouts of the mdals of those at Ishandlwana , KIA or survivors - likewise for RD ?

as i see it there are 5 possibilities for each medal ;

1- never claimed and thus was remelted down
2- claimed but later lost - current whereabouts unknown
3 - stiil with the descendents of the awardee
4-sold and now in a private collection
5-in a public museum.

Hi Gary.
I'm going to make contact with Martin Everett, has Neill says there are quite a lot of medals there. I will post his reply, when I receive it.

G.

Any news yet. Mr Greaves.

Hi CTSG.

I only sent the e-mail about an hour ago. So nothing yet.

G.

This morning I received e-mail from Mr Everett.

"We only hold 15 medals of those actually killed at Isandlwana - out of nearly 600 men of the 24th who were present at the action. So the majority of campaign medals are in other collections. In addition to the 15 are those to Lt Melvill and Lt Coghill. It is not trustees' policy to publish details of museum's medal collection for security reasons. You could purchase a copy of 'The Noble 24th' by Norman Holme which does indicate those in the museum collection. See museum website."

Of course Mr Everett is right, when it comes to the security of the medals. Does anyone own a copy of the Noble 24th? As much of the information we are after is in there.

G.

hi mr.greaves.
I have a copy of the noble 24th , but to find the medals that are at the museum requires reading some 300 pages which are the
names of all the 24th troops entitled to the zulu war medal , as there isnt a list of whose medals are at the museum from those killed at Isandlwana , there is only a notation at the end of those killed at Isandlwana which says ( regimental property ). These
I assume are the medals held at Brecon. If you are interested , I have posted a link for the NOBLE 24TH , not sure where ,
so here it is again.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/THE-NOBLE-24TH-ZULU-WAR-NORMAN-HOLME_W0QQitemZ170395760550QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiquarian_Books_UK?hash=item27ac60f7a6.

An absolute bargain , dont worry about the postage cost as that is the price to Australia.
The museum at Brecon sells them for 20-25 quid. Thats what I paid for mine :lol!:
cheers 90th.

Thanks 90th. I have checked out the museum website. But that doe's not show what medals are there.

G.