A Corporal, 1st Battalion, South Wales Borderers, circa 1882

A new acquisition to the collection.

A carte-de-visite of a Corporal in the 1st Battalion, South Wales Borderers, circa 1882, photographed by Isaac Schofield, of the Garrison & Camp Photographic Studio, Mersea Road, Colchester, Essex.
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(John Young Collection)

So here we have a Corporal wearing a non-Royal white facing full dress tunic.  The Sphinx collar badges are obvious, as is his proficiency badge on left sleeve cuff.  Just visible on his right shoulder strap - or epaulette if you will - is the letter B.  The Corporal is wearing his S.A.G.S. Medal, unfortunately the dates on the clasp are not discernible.
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What fascinates me is the badge on his Glengarry cap, look carefully…
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The Glengarry cap badge of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment!

Now my task is to attempt to identify the Corporal.  One name was suggested by the seller, but with Kenny’s assistance, we have able to disprove the seller’s suggestion.

So the game is now afoot to identify this Corporal of 1st S.W.B., who obviously continued to serve in the new regiment on its creation in July 1881.

JY

'SWB, NEW REGIMENT ON ITS CREATION IN JULY 1881'.

Thus proving that this 'NEW REGIMENT' which was 'CREATED' in July 1881' 2 years AFTER the AZW of 1879, could NOT have been involved in the defence of RD or the AZW as it did not exist at the time, which is what I have been trying to explain to people all along.

Thanks to JY for the confirmation.

Martin,

You had better take a seat before you read this one.

Please accept my apologies for the bad photography but the volume is very tightly bound.

The following is a close-up from page 93 of The Army List for April, 1878 and appears under the heading Localization of the Forces.
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(John Young Collection.)

As you can plainly see the South Wales Borderers did exist as a unit in Brecon prior to Childers’ Reforms of 1881.

JY

Hi Martin

It was not a new Regiment raised in 1881 with the name South Wales Borderers, it was an existing Regiment   called the 24th (Warwickshire Regiment) of Foot, given a new name to reflect it's affiliation to Brecon and it's Depot there since 1873. As you can see from John's post, there was the SWB militia battalion, it's full title being the Royal South Wales Borderers militia at that time and well before.
You can also see the District 25, also Brigade No 25, Cardigan, Radnor, Brecon and Monmouth, this I believe being the original Brigade involved in the first invasion of Zululand.

Hi all

On his left arm is his proficiency bagde for being a marksman.
There have been many a newspaper article referring to Bisley meetings, shooting competitions and the like in archives, this may be a place to look also.
Dunbar was a crack shot, could it be him, be great if it was. Did he serve on after RD?

John,

Fascinating and illuminating post, as ever. Thank for your continued contributions and sharing your acquisitions with us.

I watch the identification process with great interest.

South Wales Borderers in 1878, eh? Astonishing to think the men who fought in Zululand would have already been familiar with the title.

LOL!!!!

You should have done a search first JY, you see, this has already been discussed a number of years ago between either Bill or Kenny and myself, and I showed back then that this was not the full title of this auxiliary regiment, its real title being the royal south wales borderers malitia, which was made up from various other small malitia groups from Brecknock and Radnor. This regiments title and HQ at Brecon were adopted in 1881 when the SWB was created as the local regiment.

Eddie.

You should be telling JY that it was not a new regiment, it was JY that said it not me. He also said that it was created in 1881, not raised.

ALL line numbers and titles were officially ended in 1881 by the reforms, therefor the old regiments no longer existed, and new regiments were created with new names, the new name for the newly created regiment of July 1881 was the SWB, and this was shown on the epaulettes by the letters SWB, no longer the number 24 because all line numbers were officially ended by the reforms.

Don't forget that the regiment was moved there in 1873 (on paper only), and neither btln had ever been there before the AZW, you make it sound as though it had been there for donkeys years and had close affiliations with Wales and Brecon, but I think you will find that it had a far closer and longer affiliations to its homeland of England than the 8 years it had with its forced move to a place it had no connections with whatsoever.

Let's see, the regiment was raised in 1689 and was an English regiment until it was forced to move and became a Welsh regiment when it was re-created in 1881, so that is 192 years an English regiment. It is now 2023 and therefor it has now been a Welsh regiment for 142 years, meaning that it still has over 50 years to go before it overtakes its English roots.

The funny thing about all this is the fact that ALL the regiments that make up the R Welsh were all raised in England. 23rd raised in Ludlow, Shropshire, England. 24th raised in Pluckly, Kent, England. 41st raised as the invalids regiment in Chelsea, London, England. The 69th was originally the old 2nd Btln of the 24th, and if my memory serves correctly, I think it was raised in Warwickshire, England, however, it was later reformed and numbered the 69th, and later the 69th (South Lincolnshire) regiment of foot, so, there you are, the men of the regiment may well be Welsh, but the regiment that's called the R Welsh is not actually all that 'Welsh' in origin is it?

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Martin,

No need for me to do a search as the words The Royal South Wales Borderers Militia appear on my late father’s discharge papers, so I am more than aware of the history of the unit.

JY

Hi JY. I didn't mean a search online, I meant a search on this forum, as this was discussed some years ago between either Bill or Kenny and myself on here, when I showed that it was an auxiliary regiment that was called the royal south wales borderers militia and not just called the south wales borderers.

Been looking at the glengarry badge, it does not look right somehow, there is something that appears to be obscuring the number 24, as though something has been put in the way to hide the number 24.

I have zoomed into it (and used a magnifier), and compaired it with my own glengarry badge, and something just doesn't look right about it, I am sure there is something in the way of the numbers, it looks like a small crumpled piece of cloth, or something like that, what do you make of it?

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Wondered if this could be a version of the glengarry badge, but this appears to be more of an 'officer' type badge as there are no gaps on view, and the number 24 is plain enough to see.

Martin,

I was fully aware that you were referring to a forum search.

As to the badge in the Colchester photograph, I think it is just the angle giving that definition.

Your so-called officer’s glengarry cap badge is most certainly a fake, they were produced in the late 1970’s/early 1980’s. I used to have one in my collection, until I met the man responsible for their production, who assured me in no uncertainly terms he had produced a number of them.

JY

Humm!! You may be right about the 'angle' of it John, but the more I look at it, the more there does appear to be something that is obscuring the numbers, perhaps I should go to specsavers and get some new glirks with stronger lenses.

The 'officer' type badge is not mine, I found it online while doing a search, and thought it could be another version of the glengarry badge. It looked 'officer' type because of the dual metal, ie; brass and white metal with a dark backing, and just looked more 'officer' type than the one I use on the forum.

I wonder how much the bloke made out of selling these fakes?

Hi Martin

It was probably something they hung on their badge to commemorate a certain anniversary, such as a battle honour or as they do today with the Shamrock on St Patrick's or on St David's day with the Leek. Just a thought. There is definitely something hanging from the badge.

Eddie, glad that you also can see that there appears to be something obscuring the numbers, at first I thought that my old eyes could be playing tricks with me, but if you also can see that there is something obscuring the numbers, then I might not have to visit specsavers after all.

Right the pair of you go and get your eyes tested!
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JY

Hi John

That's an even worse copy than Martin's, It still looks as if something is attached, or as you say, we need an eye test.

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Good heavens John, that is very small my friend.

I had to really magnify this image to big it up, however, I put it through some of the filters I have on my comp and could then see the number 24, so I have shown it in red, but you will have to open it in super zoom to see it. LOL!