Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home

There is no historical evidence for this but it's just one of my ‘hypotheticals’ - obviously the title is misleading because there is no way the Zulus knew the location of Lord C himself

The conventional idea is that the Zulus had no idea that Lord C split this forces a second time - ie his nighttime march to Dartnell's aide.

Even had the Zulus have had scouts - they couldn't have seen much, due to Lord C leaving quietly, the darkness and the mist.

I'm fine so far.

However, the Zulus had heard gunfire from Mangeni (sometime attributed to causing the false start?)

The events were happening in Zululand and there was a large number of Zulus in the area of Dartnell who disappeared (overnight)

What was it something like 11 miles along the road/track from Isandlwana to Mangeni, maybe shorter on tribal tracks?

I think once gunfire was heard Ntishingwayo would have been lax not to send scouts and would have possibly sent out, similarly I find it hard to believe that he hadn't got word of Dartnell being out and sent ‘observers’.

Why would've the big man have word of Dartnell being out? You've already answered that at the top of your post!

So you think he didn't know Dartnell was out?

Where did 'Dartnells' Zulus go over the night of the 21st?

Because they did not appear to be there in the morning of the 22nd.

I must say I'm a bit confused by your answer.

The Zulus kept Dartnell's gang where they wanted them to be on the night of the 21st, then they, the Zulus slipped away to join up with the main army. Good stuff from the Zulus. I've been up at around 5ish in the morning whilst staying at Isandlwana Lodge, and a really misty morning as well, similar to the 22nd. I can tell you it was like a complete blanket covering the plain, and it didn't really lift till about
8ish. So, if that's what the weather conditions were like on that morning, Chelmsford's would've been already-ish at Mangeni, etc.

So Dartnells Zulus joined the main army - we are of an accord so far.

Did nee arrived Zulus keep it to themselves or report to Ntishingwayo ? - logically tell him

Wouldn't Ntishingwayo  have sent scouts to watch Dartnell - it was an enemy force to his flank or rear.

If Ntishingwayo  did have these scouts out, would they not have seen Lord C when the mist lifted at Mangeni.

Word of Dartnell's position would've been reported to someone, yes. Don't forget that when Russell was doing his mounted patrols, he reported that the surrounding areas were alive with small groups of Zulus. So, yes, those bands of Zulus were keeping a good watch.

Ok thanks

In your original answer should you have put "wouldn't have"

No. Why would've he known that Chelmsford was heading for the Mangeni area.

I didn't actually say did he see him leaving.

We know they didn't see Lord C leaving - Mehlakazulu confirms that he (himself) didn't know (but he was faffing around looking at the camp). but it's when Lord C was at Mangeni - the scouts watching Dartnell? Response to hearing gunfire?

BTW I am not trying to imply that Ntishingwayo's knowledge of the British second split, was the reason for him committing to attack the camp.

When Chelmsford got to Mangeni, most of the Zulus had already left, although he would've stil beenl observed (well hidden.) The gunfire would be really hard to judge where exactly that was coming from due to the surrounding hills, folds in the ground. Is that what you mean?

What evidence do you have that the Mangeni Zulus or a part of them slipped away to join the main army on the Nqutu? LC & co were still chasing them on or near the Mangeni on the morning of the 22nd.
As for Ntshingwayo sending out scouts to follow LC when he moved out, i don't think that would be very likely. If one were caught, he might give away the true location of the impi.

SRB1965 wrote:

I didn't actually say did he see him leaving.

We know they didn't see Lord C leaving - Mehlakazulu confirms that he (himself) didn't know (but he was faffing around looking at the camp). but it's when Lord C was at Mangeni - the scouts watching Dartnell? Response to hearing gunfire?

BTW I am not trying to imply that Ntishingwayo's knowledge of the British second split, was the reason for him committing to attack the camp.

Its long stuck in my head on why the zulu command were not aware of Chemsfords general position that morning. I get that the mists would have covered a 2am departure and hidden them until 8 or 9am.

It makes sense that scouts would have spotted them fairly quickly so one would assume that someone was sent form the scout party to report to the main army.
How long would it have taken to reach the Ngwebeni valley?
how long was it likely to have been from the shots being fired & heard in the general area of the falls to the discovery of the impi itself

RE:-Response to hearing gunfire?
I have read many accounts not only from then but also from recent visitors that the acoustics in that area can seem to play games with sounds being echoed and bounced off various hill features making it hard to tell from where the gunfire actually was originating.

As a result local zulus guiding the army would have known this phenomenon and with known British movement I'd have thought any gunfire would have caused little concern.

Assuming conditions had cleared somewhen between 8am & 10am I still find it odd that scouts could not have spotted Chemsfords force and then informed the zulu command. As I understand it the impi was discovered about 11.45am and once that happened it all kicked off and as suck out of the hands of the senior commanders.

I have not said that some/most of the Zulus that opposed Dartnell on the night of the 21st joined up with the main army on the Ngutu. (Please read posts carefully.) I said that most would've slipped away to join up with the main army. That would've been in the vicinity of the Ngwebeni Valley. What evidence have you got that some/most of the same Zulus opposed to Dartnell on that night didn't slip away?And, I have not said that Ntshingwayo sent any scouts out to follow Chelmsford. (Please read posts carefully.) I said that, the surrounding areas in & around that vicinity were alive with small bands of Zulus. Russell reported that, so you can take it up with him!

Warrior3
Well, since the Ngwebeni flows through the Nqutu plateau and out from its eastern. it's one and the same thing. The point is it's where the impi was. So, I repeat: where is the evidence that the two forces joined up. Matshana certainly didn't join the impi (indeed he was not wanted there apparently). Have you ever come across a Zulu account which purports to be by a warrior who was with Matshana and then joined the main impi? I certainly haven't.
My comment re scouts was in response to SRB's post. But, since you mention Russell, he did report the area alive with small bands of Zulus, but these were not coming from the direction of the main impi, were not observing or tracking Chelmsford's movements, and were in an area in front of and retreating before Russell's men.

I don't actually believe that Ntishingwayo sent scout out following Lord C because the Zulus didn't know he'd left but my basic scenario is:-

Dartnell went out on the 21st

Dartnell got windy and stayed out overnight, confronted by a large number of Zulus.

Dartnell sent message to Lord C saying he's overnighting and help?

Lord C moves out (early morning) to go to Dartnell's aide - unbeknownst to the Zulus in the Ngwebini Valley.

On the morning of the 22nd Dartnell finds himself alone.

The main force of the Zulus have left to join Ntishingwayo possibly leaving observers or scouts - either way undoubtedly reporting the Dartnell force to Ntishingwayo?

By the time Lord C gets to Mangeni only a few Zulus remain to give him the run around - skirmishing around the hills (the gunfire from this skirmishing attributed with the false start of the army at Isandlwana)

The same observers left watching Dartnell must have seen the British army join him.

If so would they have let Ntishingwayo  know about the arrival of a large force of British?

Obviously if you don't believe that the Mangeni Zulus joined the main Impi, it all falls flat or at least is a complication.

Would any responsible commander not have had scouts all round his army. Even more so if he was aware of Dartnell being in his location?

Julian,
Are you actually saying that none of Matshana's warriors would've slipped away in the early hours to join up with their mates in the Ngwebini area? This really doesn't need to have any recorded evidence, it's common sense. Because those warriors weren't interviewed, as were thousands upon thousands of others, does not mean it didn't happen. Of course it did.

warrior3
I assume you read my post carefully so you'll know that I wrote "the Mangeni Zulus or a part of them" as a body did not decamp to the Ngwebeni river valley. I don't deny that odd individuals might have slipped away in ones and twos (although I'm not sure how they would have known where the impi was). I also find the route they might have taken difficult. As regards requiring recorded evidence, I'm afraid that everything relating to Isandhlwana requires it. Saying 'of course it did' is simply shouting into the wind.

Julian,
Of course some of them would've known where the huge army was! And, stating/saying something that didn't happen without recorded evidence is also "shouting into the wind."

warrior3
"Of course some of them would've known where the huge army was!"
Why of course?
"And, stating/saying something that didn't happen without recorded evidence is also shouting into the wind."
How do you expect there to have been recorded evidence of something that didn't happen? That's illogical.

Julian,
No it's not. Your saying that they wouldn't of known where the huge army was, and, the route they might've taken would've been difficult! We all know how good their intelligence system worked, and the locals would've known how to get to the Ngwebini area, probably blindfolded. Mike Snook wrote a fascinating account of the battle of Isandlwana, as you know. Yes, lack of footnotes/recorded evidence, but he applied logic, common sense, a soldier's perspective, and he came up with something that was probably not far from the truth. Shouting into the wind? Maybe/maybe not.

warrior3
Mike S wrote a beautiful moving account in defence of his beloved regiment. He was a soldier not an historian but it's a perceptive thought-provoking account for all that. Sometimes his remarks were justifiable from his experience as a modern soldier. They didn't always pertain to a soldier from 1879 but even so, they still had a validity.
Now, re your "No, it's not". If you say the sky is green and I say it isn't, well, it isn't up to me to prove it's not.
You made the initial assertion that "the Zulus [on the Mangeni] slipped away to join up with the main army". I am simply asking what evidence you have to support your statement. If you can't supply it, fine, it is something to be explored.

Julian,
Agreed, sort of. But historical statements/recorded evidence is not at all (sometimes) to be taken as gospel. People lie, exaggerate, make-up for attention seeking purposes. one example - Intombie Drift, now take Lt. Harwood's Statement - basically he states the camp was overrun & he galloped in to save his life & everyone is slaughtered. We all know that he scarpered because he bottled-it. But, had not Booth held his nerve, & the others with him, etc, Harwood's statement would've been taken as fact. And I could speak about many others.

Fine. You don't have any evidence and it is something to be explored.
You are correct that historical evidence cannot always be taken as Gospel. But hearsay and opinion certainly can't.
Interestingly I've been checking in the interim to see whether any historians had made a similar suggestion in print to yours. Coupland no. Morris no. Jackson no. Knight no. Droogleever no. Snook no. L&Q not yet (this e-mail interrupts my search).

Julian,
But quite a bit of historical evidence handed down is of
"hearsay & opinion."

And is accordingly unreliable and therefore discarded or treated with the utmost caution.

I don't believed I have read anything regarding the Zulus knowing that Lord C was out.

Mehlakazulu when asked if he saw Lord Cs army leave camp says - no we heard the the reports of firearms and saw them returning.

Guku mentions the English advance guard engaging Matyanas men.

This seems to be reference to the skirmishing around Mangeni, so it works appear not everyone was confused by the acoustics of the area

SRB
Everything I've studied endorses that view.

L&Q are a no too. Interestingly they quote figures of 140 killed and 80 prisoners having chased Matshana's people as far south as his stronghold.
Annoyingly they only seem to quote secondary sources most of the time.

I do find 'local Zulus' puzzling.

A number of local chieftains seemed to have had their own forces (Siyaho, Matshana etc) - shouldn't these warriors be part of the ibutho system and mustered at Ulundi?

In the case of Matshana - it seemed to be fairly large force.

I can understand semi 'autonomous' groups such as the abaqulusi.

SRB
About 10% didn't respond to the summons to muster at the king's kraal.  Matshana's loyalty was in doubt apparently and thoughts that he might even side with the British.  He didn't but he might have been sitting on the fence for just a tad too long.
The estimates for Matshana's 'force' range from 500-700 warriors. There is reason to believe that his party was supplemented by other local men (incl. perhaps the survivors from Sokexe).

Thanks

One Zulu account mentions that Matshana was a 'Natal' Zulu (possibly meaning leanings) and that Ntishingwayo deliberately avoided him (on his march to Isandlwana)

However, I'm never sure which one of the 'two' Matshana's he was - presumably not the one who turned up at Isandlwana with a few old muskets.

Cheers

ka Mondise.

Matshana had been settled in Natal but following the Natal government's discovery of his use of witchcraft he had been allowed back into Zululand and settled in the Qudeni Bush area. Just before the war he expressed his desire to Fynn of returning the 'British fold'. His loyalty was thus in question and he wasn't trusted by many Zulu commanders.

Interesting thank you, Julian

SRB There is in my opinion a destructive confusion in the "official" accounts regarding the "two Matyanas", which has always struck me as highly suspicious.
There is no doubt in my mind at least that there was absolutely no confusion in the mind of Lord Chelmsford or Henry Francis Fynn, personal interpreter and Political advisor to Lord Chelmsford as to who these personages were or where they were based. Why there is no descimination between the two in later accounts is strange.

Matshana ka Mondisa was originally a Natal chief, he fell out with the Natal authorities after a smelling out followed by its usual consequences. An attempted reconciliation resulted in the use of firearms, after which he departed into Zululand, with a hearty distrust of the British and the Shepstone in 1858. He was welcomed by Cetshweyo and lived with his people in the Qudeni forest.

Matshana ka Sitshakuza was a border chief of people living in the Buffalo valley, the Malakatha and the Mangene gorge.

Lord Chelmsford's target after arrival at Isandlwana was to either drive the Zulus in front of his force towards Ulundi, to capture cattle, or to disarm and take hostages for loyalty to secure his flanks and the Buffalo valley, the border to Natal. It is clear that it was Matyana ka Sitshakuza who was his target for reconnaissance in sending Dartnell down to Mangene, and later one reason for sending half his force there on 22nd January.

It is recorded that Matshana ka Mondisa was with the main impi on 21st January in the area of Babanango.

There is much confusion as to who was where and when. There is as much confusion as to numbers on the night of 21st/22nd January 1879, there is little evidence to be sure.

The old muskets man was Gandama a tributary chief to Matyana ka Sitshakuza, who was also a brother of Sirayo.

Both Gandama and Matshana ka Sitshakuza living where they did in close proximity to the border would have had an accommodation with the Natal Authorities and would be known to people like Fynn. They would be ambivalent toward both Cetshwayo and the British, effectively squeezed between the two. It is I think instructive to see that Gandama caved to Chelmsford, whilst Matyana ka Sishakuza did not, at least until August 1879, the same time as Matyana ka Mondisa.

There is a record of “Matyana” being recognised by “Captain Shepstone” (T Junior I believe). I believe this Matyana was Matyana ka Shitshakuza, rather than ka Mondisa, though I may be wrong. It seems to me that Matyana ka Mondisa being an exile from Natal for the past 21 years would not be immediately recognised by Shepstone Jnr who would have been 15 years old when Mondisa went into exile. It is much more likely he would have recognised Matyana ka Sitshakuza.

I note Julian’s point regarding the 10% no shows, I am not aware of any evidence that Matyana was one of the 10%, if there is I would be interested to know the source.

There is more to this conundrum of the Matyanas.

Thanks a lot

Tig
Where is it recorded that Matshana ka Mondise was with the main impi on 21st January in the area of Babanango?
Messengers passed between Ntshingwayo (main impi) and this Matshana (his own stronghold and Mangeni Gorge).  That was all.
Shepstone recognized Matshana ka Mondise, not Matshana ka Sitshakuza.  The latter was not with the former's warriors when Shepstone was chasing them.

Julian,

One for one?

The record of Uguku states "As soon as he (Matyana) was gone they took another road, viz north of the Babanango.."

From this we know that Matyana was in the area of the Phindo sometime 21st.

Do you have a reference to confirm it was MkaM not MkaS that was chased by Shepstone? I have stated my case for the alternative.

This also ties with Russell's location of "trampled grass of an impi" I quote from memory so this may not be quite accurate but is the meaning.

I do not understand your reference to "this Matshana" MkaM's base and stronghold was not in the Mangene it was Qudeni, I believe you confuse him with MkaS in this instance, perhaps I am wrong if so please give a record to the contrary.

This also may explain the additional forces that may have concerned Dartnell late on 21st, they certainly were not there on the 22nd.

As I have stated before these may have been the chaps that Barker saw in the distance and moved off Qwabe as a result soon after sunrise. Moving north to Ngwebeni.

Tig
Really sorry to delay in replying. I've been very busy but have been checking and noting the primary sources. I hope to give you a fulsome reply in the next day or two.
Julian

Tig

“One for one”

I do not understand the ‘one for one’ reference?  Please, only bother to explain if it’s pertinent.

“Location of the two Matshanas’ warriors”

Matshana kaSitshakuza’s people lived in the Buffalo Valley and the Zulu Midlands.  As the Central Column found, the land immediately in front of it was ‘empty’ of warriors, who had all withdrawn to the region near Isipezi.     Matshana kaMondise’s people lived in the Qudeni with its stronghold at its northern end on Nkabane hill just beyond the Mangeni Falls (see L&Q, Zulu victory, map p. 89) .  The Qudeni was what Knight calls “a corrugated country” beyond the Hlazakazi-Malakatha hills extending to the south.  As Chelmsford saw it, Matshana kaSitshakuza’s people were to the left front and Matshana kaMondise’s people were to the right front.  (Knight, Zulu Rising, p. 258 & 259; Zulu Headmen, p. 26; Laband, Lord Chelmsford’s Zulu Campaign  1878-79, p. 245 fn. 25)

“Matyana being recognized by Shepstone” and
“It is recorded that Matshana kaMondise was with the main impi on 21st January”

Theophilus Shepstone Jnr. Had seen Matshana kaMondise before in Natal (his uncle had had an almost fatal encounter with him, literally, and Theo. would know him if he saw him again).  There is no record of Shepstone ever having come across Matshana kaSitshakuza.  
Matshana kaMondise was not with the main impi on the 22nd neither was he recorded anywhere as having been so.  His scouts had certainly been in contact with the impi and Magema Fuze, a key informant of Bishop Colenso, stated that Matshana kaMondise was summoned late on the 20th or early on the 21st to meet “the great army” and the Zulu commanders at Babanango.  It was while his warriors were moving northwards that they were intercepted by Dartnell’s Reconnaissance.  
Uguku: “[The Zulu commanders] devised a plan of getting [Matshana kaMondisa] out of the way on the day of the battle.  They accomplished this plan by getting him to go forward to the Pindo range of hills and promising to follow.  As soon as he had gone they took another road – north of the Ibabarrango, while Matyana went south of it, accompanied by six mavio.”
On the 22nd while his warriors were engaged with the British, Matshana kaMondise set off with a party of followers for the intended conference and was not even aware his men had been engaged with Dartnell since the 21st.
Magema Fuze “Matyana, when went with his force…had not the least idea that they were enemies, but seeing some of the natives attached to the General’s force, he thought it was the Zulu army, for the Zulu Indunas had ordered him  to come and join them at the rendezvous bear the place where the Whitemen were.  So he went on, not knowing that the enemy was there, and on foot, a little ahead of his men, his horse being led by the bridle.  As they drew near, they heard the sound of their enemies’ firearms.”
Shepstone and the NMP came into contact with Matshana kaMondise’s party, and pursued them as far as the fastness of Nkabane, Matshana kaMondise's stronghold, just south of the Mangeni Falls.  Shepstone recognized Matshana kaMondise in the pursuit.  The boy Muziwento believed he had been killed: “We were told that Matyana, son of Mondisa, had just been killed.” In fact he had had a very lucky escape but he was unable to continue to meet the other Zulu commanders.
Magema Fuze: “His people tried to make him go back, and they too fired, so that Matyana might have an opportunity of escaping.  So he mounted and rode off, but all his force died, only Noju and another were left.”

Sources: Mansel Papers, KCAL; Colenso JW & Colenso HE, Digest of Zulu Affairs, Series 1, Part 2, (1878-81), p. 549; (for Muziwento) Swinny, G. H., A Zulu Boy’s Recollections of the Zulu War and of Cetshwayo’s Return, (London, 1884); uNokenke Deserter, ‘Statement of a Zulu deserter who marched to Isandhlwana with the Nokenke Regiment’, taken by W. Drummond included in Chelmsford’s dispatch, 14th February 1879, published in the Natal Witness, 20th February 1879. Knight in Zulu Rising and Zulu and L&Q in Zulu Victory mention Shepstone’s recognition of Matshana kaMondise but annoyingly neither quotes the source.  I think it might be one of the Carbineers or NMP accounts (W. J. Clarke perhaps, or Mansel) but I really don’t have time to search for which one.

Julian,

I was about to post a reply with my comment in italic to make it easier and more accurate to differentiate my additional comments, unfortunately when I posted everything is in standard typeface. I will need to work out another simple means to differentiate.

I have to go out now for a few hours so my reply will be delayed.

There is much in your post that is educational and informative, you will not be surprised that I do find some points on which I disagree with you, and some, possibly more surprisingly, with which I do agree.

This is an interesting and important subject around the main engagement, one I think deserves far more focus than it gets.

I will post as soon as possible.

Julian, thanks for this response it is interesting and intriguing. Also for the numerous and many new to me references. There is a lot in here to interpret and to put into context. For the benefit of yourself and other contributors I will add my additional comments in square brackets, […] apologies for this but I cannot find a better way for now to make the differentiation clearer.
Matshana kaSitshakuza’s people lived in the Buffalo Valley and the Zulu Midlands.  As the Central Column found, the land immediately in front of it was ‘empty’ of warriors, who had all withdrawn to the region near Isipezi.     Matshana kaMondisa’s people lived in the Qudeni with its stronghold at its northern end on Nkabane hill just beyond the Mangeni Falls (see L&Q, Zulu victory, map p. 89) .  The Qudeni was what Knight calls “a corrugated country” beyond the Hlazakazi-Malakatha hills extending to the south.  As Chelmsford saw it, Matshana kaSitshakuza’s people were to the left front and Matshana kaMondisa’s people were to the right front.  (Knight, Zulu Rising, p. 258 & 259; Zulu Headmen, p. 26; Laband, Lord Chelmsford’s Zulu Campaign 1878-79, p. 245 fn. 25).
[This tallies with the Military “Intelligence branch” map of the area at the time – pre invasion. There is another map I have not seen which may provide better information is the one prepared by Durnford “Sketch of Zululand” on his perambulations through Zululand the previous year, no doubt in preparation for the future events. (Chelmsford Papers 25/6)]

“Matyana being recognized by Shepstone” and “It is recorded that Matshana kaMondisa was with the main impi on 21st January”

Theophilus Shepstone Jnr. Had seen Matshana kaMondisa before in Natal (his uncle had had an almost fatal encounter with him, literally, and Theo. would know him if he saw him again).
[Even if 15 year old Theo had seen Matyana would he really recognise him after 21 years had passed? The meeting between George Shepstone and Matyana was apparently a very short affair with GS taking according to Colenso and numerous Zulus witnesses a pot shot at Matyana. (Later Zulu testimonies relate other incidences thuggery and violence committed by him).]
There is no record of Shepstone ever having come across Matshana Ka Sitshakuza.  
[That does not mean it was not so. Given the time passed since 1858 and the fact that MkS was friendly to the English it seemed to me likely more likely he could be recognised by someone since he was in direct communication with Natal Authorities.
The reason I raise this is because there is a reference Norris Newman “In Zululand” p48, “It was well known in camp that a large force of Zulus belonging to the tribes of Taku ka Mazungeni and Matyana ka Usityaguza had taken refuge…in the far famed stronghold called the Ngnaba-ka-Mazungeni”. Interesting that Matyana ka Mondisa is not mentioned, Noggs would have known well the camp gossip, suggestive that a force was  and MkaS s there and MKaM was not.
Lord Chelmsford himself makes it clear in his letter to Frere on 21st January that the target of his operation with Dartnell was to ensure the Mangene gorge was clear “a precipitous valley with kranzes on each side……the river tumbles over a precipice at he upper end…” From this I conclude that this is the description of “Ngnaba-ka-Mazungeni”. I cannot find another reference to this location, but it seems to me evident that it does not describe Nkabane.]
Matshana (kaS) is recorded as being “favourable to the English” Matshana ka Mondisa was not with the main impi on the 22nd neither was he recorded anywhere as having been so.  
[I agree, I never said he was. He was with the impi  on 21st though.
I find no evidence in the record that there was anybody at Nkabane around 21/22nd January, you clearly have more references than I, if you have such references I will stand corrected.
As early as 13th January there were gatherings of Zulus at Babanango mountain, not coincidental since it was the line of March or the main impi to Isandlwana. It is therefore most likely in my view that Matyana with his people was in that area when the impi arrived from Ulundi, rather than at Nkabane.
The location Babanango is a scant 8 miles from iSipezi mountain, it lies ENE of Nkabane. Magogo lies due North of Nkabane, it is not therefore on the natural line of march if Matynana was to to go to Babanango. Phindo is to the South West of Babanango, it is clear to me that Matyana was leaving Babanango to go to Phindo.]
His scouts had certainly been in contact with the impi and Magema Fuze, a key informant of Bishop Colenso, stated that Matshana kaMondisa was summoned late on the 20th or early on the 21st to meet “the great army” and the Zulu commanders at Babanango.  
[I have not seen the Magema Fuze information until you raise it, for which I thank you, I will certainly look it up.]
It was while his warriors were moving northwards that they were intercepted by Dartnell’s Reconnaissance.
[ Is this a quote, an interpretation of a text, or your deduction? ]

Uguku: “[The Zulu commanders] devised a plan of getting [Matshana ka Mondisa] out of the way on the day of the battle.  They accomplished this plan by getting him to go forward to the Pindo range of hills and promising to follow.  As soon as he had gone, they took another road – north of the Ibabarrango, while Matyana went south of it, accompanied by six mavio.”
[My reading of this is that Matyana was with the commanders, how else was he to take his six amaviyo, at least 300 men to Phindo, only 8 miles away from the last Zulu bivouac before Ngwabeni?

Uguku says nothing of a conference, is there any reference to a conference? To quote “They accomplished this plan by getting him to go forward to the Pindo range of hills and promising to follow.  As soon as he had gone they took another road” this infers they were (1) together, (2) he left first and (3) “as soon” as Matyana left they (4) “took another road (to the North west) (5) Matyana went South West”.
MkaM was not alone he was with “Undwandwe” I have found no other references to this person, for the context suggests such is the case, in accounts of the participants, but there was such a named person at the time who would be known to Matyana. There is the possibility of a third actor here as well.
There is a quote attributed to Melokazulu by Wood, regarding why there was no attack by the Zulus on Dartnell’s force (NMP p60) “it appeared that the Chiefs of the neighbouring impi decided to postpone such an easy task until they had first eaten up the main camp”. Note the reference to Chiefs is plural, inferring Matyana was not sole commander, he was but one of a plurality. The others certainly Ndwandwe and probably MksS? This also strongly suggests that the chiefs were well aware of the strategic situation at the time in regard to the position of the main camp and the main impi.]
On the 22nd while his warriors were engaged with the British, Matshana kaMondisa set off with a party of followers for the intended conference and was not even aware his men had been engaged with Dartnell since the 21st.
[Is this an assumption or a synopsis of the quoted texts? It seems to me that on 21st Dartnell’s force met with Matyana ka Sitshakiza’s and his people, (but not women and children). When Mansel and the NMP tried a feint attack they were met with a tactical response but no firing at all and no other offensive action on the evening of 21st January, the one shot fired was from the unfortunate Trooper Parsons. Later that evening Matyana ka Modisa I propose, turned up unexpectedly but it seems was noticed by Dartnell and maybe was the cause of the late night shenanigans in the NMP,NC,NNC bivouac and the 2-00am message received by Lord Chelmsford from Dartnell, no copy of which exists.
On 22nd Russell after breakfast and before noon had chased Zulus all around the Nondweni valley and noticed at “point F” signs of crushed grass of an impi bivouac. This place is pretty accurately identifiable from Russell’s map. Some have put this down to the main impi en route to Ngwabeni, but this seems pretty far-fetched to me, it is well off the line of march, Scouts would leave no such marks. He indicates the departing Zulus were moving fast and northward.]
Magema Fuze “Matyana, when went with his force…had not the least idea that they were enemies, but seeing some of the natives attached to the General’s force, he thought it was the Zulu army, for the Zulu Indunas had ordered him to come and join them at the rendezvous bear the place where the Whitemen were.  So he went on, not knowing that the enemy was there, and on foot, a little ahead of his men, his horse being led by the bridle.  As they drew near, they heard their enemies’ firearms.”
[As I stated earlier I have not read the full Magema test, I do not have the full context. It is hard to reconcile this account with the actuality of the day, it was mid morning 22nd by the time Matyana (after reading your reference, Magema, I agree Matyana ka Mondisa, (I said in my earlier post I was not certain) was Shepstone’s target, but the action a had commenced at first light. This is not inconsistent with my previous comments.]
Shepstone and the NMP came into contact with Matshana kaMondisa’s party, and pursued them as far as the fastness of Nkabane, Matshana kaMondisa's stronghold, just south of the Mangeni Falls.  Shepstone recognized Matshana kaMondisa in the pursuit.  The boy Muziwento believed he had been killed: “We were told that Matyana, son of Mondisa, had just been killed.” In fact he had had a very lucky escape but he was unable to continue to meet the other Zulu commanders.
[He escaped by jumping off his horse into a Kranz apparently. (Stalker P63). The Stalker reference does not give him going to Nkabane, you clearly have a different source. Matyana’s horse was brought into camp to “await the General” presumably this was the Artillery park since “the General then ordered them to return two miles to the head of the Mangene Gorge and wait there” this was about 12-30pm.
Your reading as to Matyana’s intentions here are I think at a possibly unreconcilable variance with my own, unless you have other more specific information regarding “conferences”, intentions and timings other than those you have quoted.
I can see a possibility the amaviyo moved at a different pace to Matyana on horse which would lead to separation allowing him to arrive earlier or to a different place at Magogo/Phindo, I think this is unlikely since the Russel Zulu bivouac was recent inferring the night of 21st which also concurs with reports of increased number of Zulus on the night of 21st. There is a choice here, either there was no increase in numbers of Zulus on the night of 21st, and therefore no reason for Dartnell to send a late message to camp, or there was which suggests this was Matyana’s people arriving at Phindo/Magogo.]
Magema Fuze: “His people tried to make him go back, and they too fired, so that Matyana might have an opportunity of escaping.  So he mounted and rode off, but all his force died, only Noju and another were left.”
[We know this is not correct, 60 casualties are quoted by Colonial sources” taken with the “killed” comment, Magema is relating a hearsay source.]

Sources: Mansel Papers, KCAL;  [I have not been able to access the Mansel papers my browser refuses to access the University of Kwa Zulu site. Anything recorded by Mansel is probably gold standard. Interesting to note here that Lord Chelmsford did not hold a high opinion of Mansel at this time, thinking he “does not appear capable of getting oats for his horses without Major Dartnell’s assistance” subsequent events allow us to make our judgements of both’s capabilities.]
Colenso JW & Colenso HE, Digest of Zulu Affairs, Series 1, Part 2, (1878-81), p. 549; (for Muziwento) Swinny, G. H., A Zulu Boy’s Recollections of the Zulu War and of Cetshwayo’s Return, (London, 1884); uNdi Prisoner, Information from an unnamed uNdi corps warrior made prisoner after Rorke’s Drift, taken by Lieut. Milne, R.N., 23rd-24th January 1879, British Parliamentary Papers, C2454, sub-enclosure, p. 188. [I have not seen this Milne’s document.]

Knight in Zulu Rising and Zulu and L&Q in Zulu Victory mention Shepstone’s recognition of Matshana kaMondisa but annoyingly neither quotes the source.  It think it might be one of the Carbineers or NMP accounts (W. J. Clarke perhaps, or Mansel) but I really don’t have time to search for which one.
[It was Stalker P63.]

Apologies for missed typo’s and grammar.

Tig
I really think you ought to have read the sources first.  It would have saved you a lot of keyboarding.
I prefer to stand by the Zulu sources as to the locations of the two Matshanas (they were on the spot), not the British ones e.g. Norris-Newman (who were not).

"[Even if 15 year old Theo had seen Matyana would he really recognise him after 21 years had passed?"

And yet, apparently, he did so recognize him and gave chase on that basis.  Perhaps he saw him many times as a youth.

"There is no record of Shepstone ever having come across Matshana Ka Sitshakuza.  
[That does not mean it was not so. Given the time passed since 1858 and the fact that MkS was friendly to the English it seemed to me likely more likely he could be recognised by someone since he was in direct communication with Natal Authorities."

And yet he did not say that it was Mondisa kaSitshakuza that he recognized.

"there is a reference Norris Newman “In Zululand” p48, “It was well known in camp that a large force of Zulus belonging to the tribes of Taku ka Mazungeni and Matyana ka Usityaguza had taken refuge…in the far famed stronghold called the Ngnaba-ka-Mazungeni”. Interesting that Matyana ka Mondisa is not mentioned, Noggs would have known well the camp gossip, suggestive that a force was  and MkaS s there and MKaM was not."

Read the Zulu sources not Norris-Newman (who after all was only reporting what was believed to be the case prior to Isandhlwana.

"Lord Chelmsford himself makes it clear in his letter to Frere on 21st January that the target of his operation with Dartnell was to ensure the Mangene gorge was clear “a precipitous valley with kranzes on each side……the river tumbles over a precipice at he upper end…” From this I conclude that this is the description of “Ngnaba-ka-Mazungeni”. I cannot find another reference to this location, but it seems to me evident that it does not describe Nkabane.]"

Look at the L&Q map reference I supplied for the proximity of the Mangeni Falls to Nkabane.

"Matshana (kaS) is recorded as being “favourable to the English” Matshana ka Mondisa was not with the main impi on the 22nd neither was he recorded anywhere as having been so.  
[I agree, I never said he was. He was with the impi  on 21st though."

And yet the Zulu sources say that he was not with the impi on the 21st either.

"I find no evidence in the record that there was anybody at Nkabane around 21/22nd January, you clearly have more references than I, if you have such references I will stand corrected."

Look at the Zulu sources.

"As early as 13th January there were gatherings of Zulus at Babanango mountain, not coincidental since it was the line of March or the main impi to Isandlwana. It is therefore most likely in my view that Matyana with his people was in that area when the impi arrived from Ulundi, rather than at Nkabane."

And yet what was is most likely does not accord with the Zulu sources.

"The location Babanango is a scant 8 miles from iSipezi mountain, it lies ENE of Nkabane. Magogo lies due North of Nkabane, it is not therefore on the natural line of march if Matynana was to to go to Babanango. Phindo is to the South West of Babanango, it is clear to me that Matyana was leaving Babanango to go to Phindo.]"

However that is not what the Zulu sources say.

"His scouts had certainly been in contact with the impi and Magema Fuze, a key informant of Bishop Colenso, stated that Matshana kaMondisa was summoned late on the 20th or early on the 21st to meet “the great army” and the Zulu commanders at Babanango.  
[I have not seen the Magema Fuze information until you raise it, for which I thank you, I will certainly look it up.]"

Look it up!

"It was while his warriors were moving northwards that they were intercepted by Dartnell’s Reconnaissance.
[ Is this a quote, an interpretation of a text, or your deduction? ]"

Look at the Zulu source - northwards it was!

"Uguku: “[The Zulu commanders] devised a plan of getting [Matshana ka Mondisa] out of the way on the day of the battle.  They accomplished this plan by getting him to go forward to the Pindo range of hills and promising to follow.  As soon as he had gone, they took another road – north of the Ibabarrango, while Matyana went south of it, accompanied by six mavio.”
[My reading of this is that Matyana was with the commanders, how else was he to take his six amaviyo, at least 300 men to Phindo, only 8 miles away from the last Zulu bivouac before Ngwabeni?"

By sending him messengers asking him to go forward from where he was (own country) to the Pindo.
His start position was not the Babanango.

"Uguku says nothing of a conference, is there any reference to a conference?"

No, there was no conference because Matshana kaM never arrived at Babanango to have one.

"There is a quote attributed to Melokazulu by Wood, regarding why there was no attack by the Zulus on Dartnell’s force (NMP p60) “it appeared that the Chiefs of the neighbouring impi decided to postpone such an easy task until they had first eaten up the main camp”.

The main impi and the chiefs referred to by Mehlokazulu were the one that had come from Ulundi and Ntshigwayo, Mnyamana & co., not Matshana kaMondise.

"On the 22nd while his warriors were engaged with the British, Matshana kaMondisa set off with a party of followers for the intended conference and was not even aware his men had been engaged with Dartnell since the 21st. [Is this an assumption or a synopsis of the quoted texts?"

A summary of a quotation.

"It seems to me that on 21st Dartnell’s force met with Matyana ka Sitshakiza’s and his people, (but not women and children)."

But not according the Zulu sources.

"Magema Fuze “Matyana, when went with his force…had not the least idea that they were enemies, but seeing some of the natives attached to the General’s force, he thought it was the Zulu army, for the Zulu Indunas had ordered him to come and join them at the rendezvous bear the place where the Whitemen were.  So he went on, not knowing that the enemy was there, and on foot, a little ahead of his men, his horse being led by the bridle.  As they drew near, they heard their enemies’ firearms.”
[As I stated earlier I have not read the full Magema test, I do not have the full context. It is hard to reconcile this account with the actuality of the day..."

The source makes it clear.

"Shepstone and the NMP came into contact with Matshana kaMondisa’s party, and pursued them as far as the fastness of Nkabane, Matshana kaMondisa's stronghold, just south of the Mangeni Falls.  Shepstone recognized Matshana kaMondisa in the pursuit.  The boy Muziwento believed he had been killed: “We were told that Matyana, son of Mondisa, had just been killed.” In fact he had had a very lucky escape but he was unable to continue to meet the other Zulu commanders...Your reading as to Matyana’s intentions here are I think at a possibly unreconcilable variance with my own"

I can only refer you to the sources.

I can see a possibility the amaviyo moved at a different pace to Matyana on horse which would lead to separation allowing him to arrive earlier or to a different place at Magogo/Phindo..."

The Zulu sources are clear.  Matshana kaM's warriors left on the 21st.  He left the next day.

"Magema Fuze: “His people tried to make him go back, and they too fired, so that Matyana might have an opportunity of escaping.  So he mounted and rode off, but all his force died, only Noju and another were left.”
[We know this is not correct, 60 casualties are quoted by Colonial sources” taken with the “killed” comment, Magema is relating a hearsay source.]"

Magema Fuze was referring to the small party of warriors (what one might call a personal bodyguard) accompanying Matshana kaMondise on the 22nd.  He was not referring to the 6 amaviyo plus warriors.

Julian, I have clearly touched a raw nerve with you.
My ignorance, lack of knowledge or information, to which I have made significant, but clearly not sufficient efforts to dispel, always being happy to be corrected or informed; I offer no apology, one does what one can.
My case is made with the information I have, and I invite contrary positions to be made. Uguku for example is a Zulu source. My interpretation of what he says is a perfectly reasonable one. You have a source that contradicts this interpretation, fair enough, as you say, I should look it up.
Your reply focuses on Matyana’s movements, but the amaviyo and Ndwandwe were they all together at Nkabane? Why does Uguku’s story not seem to agree? The specific term amaviyo is an army term inferring they part of an impi, perhaps Ndwandwe was with the amaviyo moving north to south and Matshana was moving north, as you say, I need to look at the sources to know.
As to Nkabane, I am well aquainted with the location, and the other locations I mention. I quote Norris Newman, Lord Chelmsford and not Zulu sources for good reason since these sources prove they thought the stronghold was in the Mangene valley under the falls, not Nkabane and they were targeting MkaS’s people, NN was “there”. The fact that we all agree nobody was in the valley is irrelevant, that is what they thought and the reason men were sent there. LC Zululand Campaign p73. They were not targeting what we agree is Nkabane even if there may have been confusion over the name of the place.
There were many Zulu warriors in the Nondwende valley on 21st January, and many on Magogo. Where did they go? North to Qwabe/Nyeze ridge?
You are aware that I believe that Barker’s position after sunrise on 22nd January was on Qwabe Hill from whence he was displaced by Zulus “in the distance”.
Lord Chelmsford’s strategic focus at this time was to advance down to the Qudeni then north to iSipezi. The Mangene events were essentially to form a new camp at the head of the Mangene Valley to form a strong point to pacify that whole area.
The “Narrative” suggests the whole Mangene affair was an unfortunate sideshow caused by the Dartnell’s decision to stay out. I am not the first to small a rat here, an “official” distraction to take the focus away from Lord Chelmsford’s decision to move half his army.
I said earlier this is an important series of events and it is also important to understand how, when and why people were moving about if we want a better understanding of the later event at Isandlwana.

Apologies for the directness for my replies above. It's all in the sources which I hope you'll be able to gather together to complete the jigsaw.
As a by the by, re Matshana kaSitshakuza’s chief kraal, I seem to recall seeing in Laband somewhere that it was on or near Hlazakazi. I can't find the reference but can anyone confirm?

Amaviyo simply refers to the numbers of warriors involved that Matshana kaM would have brought to the impi.

Julian,
As I understand it, you posit, based upon your Zulu sources that on 21st January the amaviyo left Nkabane (possibly late on in the day) to go to Babanango, on 22nd January Matyana left Nkabane to follow the amaviyos towards Babanango.
Am I correct in this understanding?

Thank you Frank.  Matshana kaSitshakuza's chief kraal was south of the Malakatha but much farter west than Nkabane, Matshana kaMondise's stronghold.

Gavin
Almost.
As per the Zulu sources, following the impi commanders' summons, on 21st January the amaviyo left Matshana kaMondise's territory i.e. the area of the Qudeni Forest (I do not know if they had all foregathered at Nkabane) to go to Babanango; and on 22nd January Matshana kaMondise himself with a bodyguard left Nkabane to follow the amaviyo towards Babanango.
Apologies for not being clearer.

If nothing else, at least my flippant post has stimulated debate