Lord Chelmsford and Major Dartnell.

"Late in the evening on the 21st January Major Dartnell and his men came across a large force of Zulu’s, which they believed to be the main Zulu Impi that they were seeking. Major Dartnell sent a message back to Lord Chelmsford at Isandlwana requesting reinforcements, which reached him at about two am on the morning of the 22nd January. Convinced that the main Zulu Impi had been found, Lord Chelmsford accompanied by six companies of the 2/24th foot, four 7lb guns, and a detachment of mounted infantry, rode out to join Major Dartnell. "

I supposed I should know this but, Did Chelmsford meet-up with Major Dartnell, or was he on his way to meet him when the Zulus attacked Isandlwana.

hi olh2.
Yes , Chelmsford did meet up with dartnell , well before the attack on the camp, when they went searching for the
" so called " zulu army earlier in the morning , they couldnt find it . The zulus had moved on toward the camp.
Therefore in his quest to find the zulus the good lord sent parties of men off in every direction except to where the
enemy was !. This is another reason why Chelmsford couldnt get back to Isandlwana any earlier even if he thought
he had to , because his forces were spread to all points of the compass in the hope of finding the zulus. And to muster
them back to him was a long time consuming task , as he then in turn , had to locate his own forces. We must also
remember the zulu didnt want to attack on the 22nd because of the dead moon , a time of ill omen to them. They were
waiting for dawn on the 23rd , they only attacked on the 22nd because LT RAW stumbled across them and then they
had no choice but to attack. Very lucky for the good lord , as had it been dawn on the 23rd his force would have been
done in as well. Dartnell was to be back in camp by sunset on the 21st according to his orders , but as he thought he had found
the zulu army , he decided to stay where he was and keep an eye on them so to speak , then sent word to Cford of his intention
to attack the zulus in the morning of the 22nd. So Cford sent him re-inforcements he had asked for.
cheers 90th.

90th Thanks for your informative reply.
How far was Dartnell from Isandlwana? Or how long did it take Chelmsford to get to Dartnell.
Dartnell reported that he thought he had seen the main impi. Why would Chelmsford dilute his force by sending them out to all points of the compass? It would have made more sense for Chelmsford and Dartnell to return to Isandlwana.

90 th , hello ,

interesting post , do you think that the result would have been the same had Chelmsford and the extra troops been in the day ?

i am not so sure - extra British infantry , extra firepower , extra artillery (i think ) , and also Chelmsford would have been in comand of the camp and so prevent Durnford going off - ithink that would have made a big difference to the outcome .

Thoughts anyone ?

How many troops did Dartnell have under his commard. And if known what would the troops have totalled combined with Chelmsfords force.

Was there any reason why Dartnell couldn't make his way Isandlwana after he had sighted the Zulu's instead of sending a messager. Did he not want to take the risk of getting caught out in the open but expected reinforcements to come to him.

hi 24th.
As in my earlier post the only reason Dartnell didnt go back to the main camp was he thought he had found
the main impi and he wished to stay nearby so he could attack in the morning , hence his reasoning in asking
for the re- enforcements.
littlehand
Not sure how many men were with Dartnell"s party originally, I can tell you that once Chelmsford met up with him,
their combined number was approx 2800 . Which left approx 12 - 1400 at Isandlwana.

olh2
Without checking any references Dartnell was between 5 - 8 miles from Isandlwana. Maybe an hour or two
from when C"ford left and met up with Dartnell.

gary.
I dont think the outcome would have been any different if ALL the forces had stayed in the camp, It would
have taken a longer time to fall and zulu losses would have been far greater. The main points being the
camp wasnt fortified and also more than half the British force consisted of N.N.C ( 2566 of them ). Compare
this to Wood"s column at Khambula where he had more imperial troops and only 387 N.N.C. Wood's camp
was heavily fortified and he had plenty of time from when he knew the zulu were coming and also saw them well
in advance of when they attacked . The outcome at Khambula was touch and go for a while , so on that basis
Isandlwana couldn't have survived the attack.
hope this helps cheers 90th.

If Chelmsford was prepared to reinforce Dartnell, leaving at 2am in the hours of darkness knowing that Zulu's were in the area. Why was he not prepared to reinforce Rorkes Drift. He arrived back at Isandlwana in the hours of darkness,but was happy to sit it out there while the troops at Rorkes Drift were fighting for their lives.

hi john.
There a couple of reasons Cford couldnt re-enforce R.D. The troops with him had basically been
on the move since 2 A.M when he left Isandlwana , They then basically double timed back to the camp
still arriving at night and were completely done in , dont forget R.D is approx 7 - 9 miles from Isandlwana.
I dont think Dartnells men had eaten for 24 hrs or more , not sure if the imperial troops had eaten either.
Also in the morning the zulus passed C"ford on his way to R.D. C"ford didnt engage them , as his troops didnt
have enough ammunition . Nearly all their ammo was left in the wreckage of the camp and it would be impossble
to locate among the debris , also C"FORD didnt want his troops to see the carnage , that is one reason he
wanted to be gone before it was daylight. Also seeing that the sky was ablaze over R.D he summised the worst.
cheers 90th.

Dartnell only had 150 men not enough to engage the Zulus

On the 21st of January Major John Dartnell led a party of about 150 men on a reconnaissance mission, some 16km to the south-east in the area of the Hlazakazi Hill. Commandant Rupert Lonsdale simultaneously led 1,600 men of the Natal Native Contingent in the direction of the Malakatha Mountain. During these movements some Zulus were observed on the Magogo Heights. After several skirmishes, Dartnell sent two men back to Isandlwana to report to Chelmsford, and inform him that his party would spend the night on the slopes of Hlakazi.

At about ten o'clock the Zulus were found in force by the mounted men the contingent being on a range of hills distant about five miles. The enemy appeared anxious to fight, but Major Dartnell did not think it prudent to engage without supports. The Zulus occupied
a large kloof, and whenever the mounted men approached they came out in large numbers. A small body were sent up close, under Mr. Mansel, to try and make the Zulus show their force, when they advanced throwing out the " horns/' and tried to surround the party, following them down into the open, where Major Dartnell and the remainder of the mounted troops were. The whole then retired and joined the contingent, about three miles from the kloof.


In the evening, says Major Clery, " a message arrived from Major Dartnell that the enemy was in considerable force in his neighbourhood, and that he and Commandant Lonsdale would bivouac out the night," which they were permitted to do.

The wisdom of this may be doubted, as the Native Contingent seemed particularly liable to alarm; twice they " were seized with panic, rushing about every- where, the night being very dark. They knocked us down," writes an officer, " and stampeded our horses, causing the greatest confusion. If the Zulus had come on we should all have been cut to pieces.

" That night Major Dartnell sent off messengers to Lord Chelmsford that he had marked the Zulus down in a kloof, and asked for two companies of infantry to be sent out as a support, and that he would attack the Zulus in the morning."

Major Clery says: t "About 1.30 A.M. on the 22nd, a messenger brought me a note from Major Dartnell to say that the enemy was in greater numbers than when Some Zulus (a chief named Gandama, and others) came into the camp on the 21st, saw the General, and were allowed to depart.

He last reported, and that he did not think it prudent to attack unless reinforced by two or three companies of the 24th Regiment. The General ordered the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, the Mounted Infantry, and four guns, to be under arms at once to march." The
Natal Native Pioneers, about 50 strong, accompanied the force, which " marched out from the camp as soon as there was light enough to see the road." Lieut. - Colonel Pulleine, l-24th Regiment, was instructed to take "command of the camp.

Extract from: "History of the Zulu war and its origin;"

Does anyone know exactly when Chelmsford left Isandlwana to reinforce Dartnell? In one post its says 2am.

In the post, posted by John is says

Quote :

“Which marched out from the camp as soon as there was light enough to see the road”

I have never been to South Africa but I don’t think it would be light enough to see the roads at 2am.

Chelmsford joined up with Dartnell at 06:30am. If Chelmsford left at 2am that’s a four and half hour journey. ?

hi all.
Chelmsford recieved Dartnell"s request for re- enforcements via Clery at about 2am , and they marched off as soon as there was
sufficient light to see the road , I cant give you an exact time. According to F.W.D. JACKSON in his book
HILL OF THE SPHINX C"ford met up with Dartnell at 6.30 am , then they proceeded to go and find the zulu army.
cheers 90th.

How can we find out what time Chelmsford left ISANDLWANA. This would give us some idea how long it would have taken him to return. What time does it get light in S/A

Littlehand
At that time of the year around 5.30, but the "time of the horns" would be around 4

Thanks Spingbok9
So we are looking between 2-3 hours of travelling. Do we know, at what time they realised it was not the main Impi.

littlehand

Thank you for posting the picture of the NMP. I saw it a few years ago on another forum and I wondered then, as I do now, about where the original resides and who was the artist? I do not know of any other pictures of the NMP during the Zulu War, so I wonder if this one is unique?

Regards
Brett

Earlier in this forum the question was asked What time did Chelmsford leave Isandlwana to join Dartnell ?
Well all the sources that I have seen put the time between 4.00am and 4.30am.

The site of Maj Dartnell's bivouac is 24 km to the south of Isandlwana, above Mangeni Falls. The site of his skirmish is about 4km further, on the ridge overlooking the headwaters of the Nsuze River, which in turn overlooks the route that Lord Chelmsford thought the Zulu army would advance - via the isikala semBomvu, to the east of iThala mountain. I'll look for some photos and get Admin to post them, because I am still technically challenged in that regard.
Ken

The site of Dartnell’s bivouac is visible on the ridge above the Mangeni Falls in the photo entitled: “AZW-Hlazakazi, above Mangeni”.

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AZW-Hlazakazi.

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Photo's by Ken Gillings.

Hi Pete .
Once again thank you for posting the images and also thanks to Ken Gillings for allowing them to be posted on our
Forum . They are much apprciated .
cheers 90th.

I note that I mentioned in my post that isikala semBomvu is east of iThala mountain; it is to the west of it. My apologies.
Regards, Ken

Ken. Your not still using Lord Chelmsford's old compass are you.

:lol:

Would that be the main Zulu Impi finding compass.

What happen to Dartnell, after the attack Isandlwana. Did he return to Isandlwana with Chelmsford or was he dispatched else where.

Dartnell accompanied Chelmsford back to Isandlwana and was with the remnants of the Central Column when they crossed back into Natal on the 23rd January. He was also ordered to accompany the General to Pietermaritzburg when Chelmsford left Rorke's Drift on the 24th January 1879.
He was thereafter deployed at Helpmekaar until the 20th February 1879 when he left for Ladysmith. Major Dartnell and 60 of his Natal Police accompanied the Isandlwana burial party at the end of June 1879 but they did not accompany the 2nd Division during its advance on Ulundi.
After the Anglo-Zulu War, Dartnell served in the Gun War of 1880, the Transvaal War of Independence of 1880-1881 and in the Anglo-Boer War of 1899-1902. He retired in 1903 and died (I think in Canada) in 1913.
Regards, Ken

Hi All

A little info on Dartnell can be found at the following link

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Further information can be read by clicking the following link

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Thanks 1879graves. I don' t know if you have read the Natal Mounted Police.
But it's not easy to understand whether or not Dartnell went with Chelmsford back to Isandlwana,he writes about others being there, and their accounts. I may have read the book wrong when he refers to Isanlwana. Some of what he has written sounds very familiar to what others have wrote like Brown.

As anyone else heard of this incident. The problem with this book, is again Dartnell base's his knowledge of what happen at Isandlwana on what has already been written. Of course we know he wasn't at Isandlwana, he was with Chelmsford. The text below i think confirms he did spent the night at Isandlwana.

"SHORTLY after dawn on the morning following the disaster of Isandhlwana, January 23, 1879, Lord Chelmsford's force received orders to march, the police being given the rear-guard. The column had cleared the spruit below the nek, and the police were moving after it, when a violent fusillade was started in front of them. Unable to tell for a few seconds what was happening, the police " closed up," and then they saw the Native Contingent charging valiantly up a hill, where they cut to pieces a solitary Zulu who had had the temerity to open fire on the column. Some hundreds of shots were fired at him."

source: Natal Mounted Police.

Would this not be in relation to the Zulu that had been attacking RD, who wanted a pop at the returning colum and was shot to bits?

Hi Cisco. Good point. But i read as though they were still near Isandlwana.

Quote :

"The column had cleared the spruit below the nek, and the police were moving after it".

Hi Mr Greaves

I have to agree that the book does not make it very clear. The book was written by H.P. Holt, only the introduction was done by Dartnell.
I have never found or seen an account by Dartnell, did he ever leave a written account of his part in the Zulu War?

Yes must admit I too found it to be similar to other accounts written about Isandlwana and yes Brown does come to mind.

Thanks for the replys. I thought it was odd that he wouldn't have return to Isandlwana with Chelmsford after all where else would he have gone.

Much of Holt's book is copied, often verbatim, from accounts written earlier by W J Clarke, Chief Commissioner of the Natal Police. Clarke's record of the Natal Mounted Police was published in the form of a booklet issued in 1893 or 1894 ('A Record of the Services of the Natal Mounted Police', which was published in Pietermaritzburg). The post-1994 history of the Natal Police was published in a series of articles in the NP magazine, 'The Nongqai'.

Clarke's booklet includes a fairly detailed account of the NMP during the Zulu War. He started his account of the return to the Isandlwana camp as follows:
"The scene at the plundered camp has often been described, but no pen could adequately express the feelings of those who spent the night at that ghastly halting-place, amidst the debris of the plunder and the mutilated bodies of men, horses and cattle."
Further down he wrote:
"At 4.30 a.m. came the welcome order to march, but as the N.M.P. formed the rear guard, they had time to look over the battlefield and identify their comrades who had fallen on the Neck."

He goes on to give an annotated nominal roll at the time of the battle. He also records the role played by the NMP in Durnford's last stand in order to correct the impression given at the time that it was the "Volunteers alone", who fought and died with Durnford. (Volunteers = Natal Carbineers, Newcastle Mounted Rifles, Buffalo Border Guard).

Brett

PS By the way, Clarke was a Trooper during the Zulu War and a Sub-Inspector by the time the NMP morphed into the Natal Police in 1894.

Brett. Thanks very much for the info: Am I right in saying there is no account from Major Dartnell himself regarding the aftermath at Isandlwana.

As far as I know, Dartnell did not record any of the NMP/NP history, except in the preface to Holt's book. Record-keeping seems to have been a task assumed by, or delegated to Clarke. It seems odd that Holt came to write the official history. I know nothing of his background, but it seems not to include service with the NMP/NP. He relied a great deal on Clarke's writings, evidently with Clarke's consent.

Brett

Quote :

"SHORTLY after dawn on the morning following the disaster of Isandhlwana, January 23, 1879, Lord Chelmsford's force received orders to march, the police being given the rear-guard. The column had cleared the spruit below the nek, and the police were moving after it, when a violent fusillade was started in front of them. Unable to tell for a few seconds what was happening, the police " closed up," and then they saw the Native Contingent charging valiantly up a hill, where they cut to pieces a solitary Zulu who had had the temerity to open fire on the column. Some hundreds of shots were fired at him."

There is reference to a similar incident, that took place at Rorkes Drift. Whilst despatching the wounded Zulu's one made off and got back across the river,many shots were fired at him to no avail. He was killed by mounted men. That were ordered to chase him down. This comes from the same publication.

Hi Chard1879.
You will find these are two seperate incidents , Chard says a zulu took a potshot at the soldiers as they were checking the
bodies outside the compound he took off and although many shots were fired , Chard was a little pleased he managed to escape .
There were no Mounted troops at RD when this happened . The other incident was when the column was making its way back
to RD a lone zulu opened fire on the column if I remember correctly Harford tells of this incident and says he was promptly dispatched .
cheers 90th.

This is the artical Chard1879 is talking about.

"When the column to which the police were attached arrived they found the bodies of natives lying all round the hospital and store. There were many wounded Zulus, but none recovered, and several who tried to escape were shot. One actually got back across Rorke's Drift, although dozens of shots were fired at him,

Quote :

but he was followed by a mounted infantryman and killed

."

The Impi that Major Dartnell came across, which called for him to request reinforcements. What happen to it. Did this Impi return and take take part in the Battle of Isandlwana.

Many of them were inkosi Matshana kaMondisa's amabutho and they eventually slipped away to link up with the main army in the vicinity of the Silutshana. Regards, Ken

I always thought Major Dartnell, sent a message asking for reinforcements. But that according the Natal Mounted Police wasn’t the case. So why did Chelmsford dived his force. ???

Dave, it would help if we knew what was said.

Hi Dave.
Dartnell did indeed send the message to Chelmesford requesting reinforcements .
cheers 90th.

Sorry for late reply. Called away before i could finish earlier. Perhaps I’m reading more in to this, but if this was the case, why did Chelmsford decide to go himself and take half the column with him. If he thought the main impi was there, why didn’t he take his entire force to ensure a decisive victory.

"In order not to lose touch with the Zulus, Major Dartnell decided to bivouac with the police, volunteers, and Native Contingent on the ground he had taken up, and two Staff officers, Major Gosset and Captain Buller, returned to the main camp to report the presence of the enemy and ask approval of the bivouac. In many accounts of the Zulu war it is stated that he appealed for reinforcements, but this is incorrect. He had decided to attack the impi at dawn, adding that a company or two of the 24th Regiment might instil confidence in the Native Contingent, but whether they came or not the attack would be made at 6 a.m."
Source: The Natal Mountes Police.

Hi Dave.
Well , thats the first time I've ever heard of that from anyone in Print . I find it a little hard to believe as for one thing
Hamilton ( Maori ) Browne doesnt mention this so called plan to attack in his book and surely he would have done so !
At least I dont remember him saying it . Browne wanted to return to Isandlwana as the men out with Dartnell hadnt
eaten for nearly a day . Hardly the best time to mount an attack .
cheers 90th.

Interesting Point. I think Dave is correct. Dartnell never "asked" for reinforcements.He stated "he did no think it would be prudent to attack" Clever really because he put the situation in to Chelmsford hands.

This from Clery

"1st Witness.— Major Clery states: I am Senior Staff Officer to the 3rd Column, commanded by Colonel Glyn, C.B., operating against the Zulus. The General commanding accompanied this Column from the time it crossed the border into Zululand.
On the 20th January, 1879, at the Camp, Isandlwana, Zululand, the Lieutenant-General commanding gave orders to Commandant Lonsdale and Major Dartnell to go out the following morning in a certain direction from the camp with their men, i.e., the Native Contingent, and the Police, and Volunteers, part of the 3rd Column. On the evening of the following day (the 21st) a message arrived from Major Dartnell that the enemy was in considerable force in his neighbourhood, and that he and Commandant Lonsdale would bivouac out that night. About 1.30 A.M., on the 22nd, a messenger brought me a note from Major Dartnell, to say that the enemy was in greater numbers than when he last reported, and that he did not think it prudent to attack them unless reinforced by two or three companies of the 24th Regiment. I took this note to Colonel Glyn, C.B., at once, he ordered me to take it on to the General. The General ordered the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment, the Mounted Infantry, and four guns, to be under arms at once to march. This force marched out from camp as soon as there was light enough to see the road. The Natal Pioneers accompanied this column to clear the road. The General first ordered me to write to Colonel Durnford, at Rorke's Drift, to bring his force to strengthen the camp, but almost immediately afterwards he told Colonel Crealock that he (Colonel Crealock) was to write to Colonel Durnford these instructions, and not I. Before leaving the camp, I sent written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; draw in (I speak- from memory) your camp, or your line of defence"—I am not certain which-"while the force is out: also draw in the line of your infantry outposts accordingly; but keep your cavalry vedettes still far advanced." I told him to have a wagon ready loaded with ammunition ready to follow the force going out at a moment's notice, if required. I went to Colonel Pulleine's tent just before leaving camp to ascertain that he had got these instructions, and I again repeated them verbally to him. To the best of my memory, I mentioned in the written instructions to Colonel Pulleine that Colonel Durnford had been written to to bring up his force to strengthen the camp. I saw the column out of camp and accompanied it."