Neil’s up and coming trip to the land of the Zulu.

Nice one 1879Graves. Thanks 90th.

Dave. I have often wondered how a mass Zulu army manage to evade being seen.
I’m not sure what route they would have taken to t the valley, but most of the photos posted of Isandlwana certainly identity’s open ground. You say did they get there a few days before they actually did, I was thinking along the lines of smaller groups of Zulus moving towards the valley over a number of days and all coming together the day before.

One question that has been nagging me for a long time is this.

The Zulu’s fooled Chelmsford in to coming to the assistance of Dartnell. The Zulu’s say they did not intend to attack on the 22nd January because of the new moon. What would have happen if the whole column had left Isandhlawana? Would the Zulu’s have attacked? Or was the Battle of Isandlwana just an inconvenience to the Zulu’s what I mean, I wonder if the Zulu’s expected the whole column to move out leaving an open door into Natal, Apart from the mission station at Rorkes Drift, who by the way would have been taken completely off guard, as they would have got no warning.

I don't think anything could have stopped the Zulu Army, if they had decided to move to Natal.

This is just a theory, but I hope it gives way for discussion. (And I hope it makes sense)

G

Maybe a silly question but Who was in command of Number 3 column? Colonel Glyn or Chelmsford.

Ken

Quote :

to have been hidded in the folds of the valley from the top of the Nyoni heights

Has a photo been posted of this area. If not do you know where we can obtain one to give us a better understanding of the terrain.

Mr Greaves not sure about your theory. Even if Chelmsford hadn't divided his forces the Zulu attack would still have been launched. Cetewayo orders were to drive Col: Glynn’s column back across the river. As for going into Natal, Cetewayo would not have been that stupid.

John. Glynn was in command.

hi all.
Cetswayo gave orders that under no circumstance were they to cross the river into Natal, he wished to
be portrayed as the victim , not the agressor, Dabulamanzi went against his wishes and attacked R.D.
The only reason that Cetswayo never had him killed , he was his Favourite brother in law.
Cetswayo also gave strict orders not to attack the red soldiers if they were laagered or fortified,
Seems no-one was listening, had they attacked on the march , things I"m sure would have turned
uglier in regards to casualties.
cheers 90th.

Photo (maybe 2) on its way.

Regarding Ptince Damubalamzi kaMpande, just a correction; he was the King's half brother - not brother in law!

Regards,

Ken

hi ken.
Thanks for that , I knew " Brother " was somewhere in the mix. I should have checked before I posted.
cheers 90th.

Dave
The men on the road were part of 5 feild Co RE, commander Mc Dowell, althought his body was supposedly found in the camp. Potentially some of the men would have been with Chard on leaving RD, and had left them there after they followed him to Isandlwana that morning (my conjecture, no fact).

Thier is a small cairn , on the Isandlwana side of the stream crossing, it does show on the drawing, however I am told by the locals that this is a Zulu Cairn (not contemporary), I hope to go with Rob caskie to the point that The RE were caught, the locals showed himself and D Rattray a while back.


Alot of cairns can be seen by Binoculars, on thr lush boggey abd grassy area across the top of Silutshane.

Littlehand, I will be going back to the point, the area is actually very close to Isandlwana, just beyond the Notch. It is a deep ravive (not Ngwebeni),There Vadettes were nearly on top of them on the end of the Nyoni ridge, but they could not look down enough to see them massed against the valley side. It is from here that the Zulu's who engaged Durnford is beleived to have departed. They could have easily cut across the plain in the huge dongas which in places are 20 feet deep and sheer sided.

Further info on the Right horn.

Ken and Springbok, we went there in Jan with Rob Caskie, if you drive out of Isandlwana, through the main village, the road ascends the Nyoni ridge before the Notch. As the road climbs beyond the notch, the land to your right levels off.
We went approx 300 metres across this, right to the point of the ridge, the view was staggering, however. the close dongas to the left if Isandlwana is to your right, you simply cannot see.

The top road from Isandlwana Lodge, past the Radio mast meets at the same road.

To get a better perspective, instead of going up the ridge, take the road out across the battlefield front edge, out towards Hamilton Browns position and on to mageni, you cross the moonscape of Dongas, and to your left you can then see the large area of ground that cannot be seen, I'll dig in my photo archive to see if I have it.

Neil
I know Robs opinion that the cairns are of Zulu origin. On Boasts original map he indicated three grave sites all next to the stream/road crossing. Considering the amount of time between the first stand to and the commencement of hostilities there was more than enough time for any road crew to get back to camp. Cant imagine any group wanting to be outside the "safety" of the camp with a potential attack imminent. ( Sorry I used the word safety very much tongue in cheek). There was once a theory that the graves were men who got seperated from Dysons force and made there way down the side of the ridge only to get caught at the bottom. Personaly I lean more to the theory of early runners from the field getting caught, possibly NNC.
Regards

Springbok
did he point out the graves of the Engineers?.

Neil

Neil
For some reason the cairn adjacent to the present road ford over the stream is allways pointed out as an engineers grave when in fact the old road is some few hundred meters away. FDL staff are quite guilty of this.

Just to add fuel to the fire, there has always been conjecture about this, because several local Zulus tell us that it is an isivivane (a 'lucky cairn'). One finds them scattered about the rural areas - usually at important junctions or at the summit of a hill. The traveller stops, kicks a stone aside with his/her left foot, lifts it with the right hand, spits on it and places in on the top of the pile. There was a theory several years ago that the graves of Lts Melvill and Coghill had been covered with stones from an isivivane and for this reason, local people (unhappy with this) had destroyed the grave. As I've mentioned before, it is generally believed now that 'Pottie' Potgieter who owned the store 'Petruskar' (where the Fugitives' Drift Guest Lodge is now situated) destroyed it.
I didn't mean to digress, but as had been correctly pointed out, that particular cairn is further upstream on the Amanzimyama Stream to where the original traders' road drift was situated.
Regards,
Ken

Ken
I fully agree.
I also seem to recall an isivivane on the banks of the river at Fugitives Drift and one other about half way up to The M & C graves, didnt see them on my last visit. Maybe sold as souveneirs

Ken

That is why I think they always refer is as a local cairn, just ot make sure we are on the same one, heading to Isandlwana on the "new" road, now pipe bridged over the old ford, the cairn is on a slight rise just above the crossing Isandlwana side.

The Engineers spot is approx 300 yards downstream, beyond the hut that has a rather precarious waste pipe over the stream bed!, I must go and have a closer when I meet up with Mike. Image will follow shortly.


The same can be said of the original crossing at Rorkes Drift, the original road can be made out from the Oskerberg, but not at ground level.

Hi all. With reference to the sketch by A. Boast. Can anyone point out roughly the location where the Button was found, with the remains of the British soldier? That’s if the area is shown on the map.

Dave.

This from Ian Knight.

"Is it really true, for example, that 2nd Lt. ‘Dyson’s section [of the 1/24th] was overwhelmed at a very early stage’ of the battle? This view is based on observations of a particular burial cairn carried out by the late George Chadwick, apparently in the 1970s. Yet the exact position of this cairn cannot now be ascertained – that part of the battlefield having been heavily disturbed – which makes it difficult to locate its context within the broader course of the battle. Moreover, Mr Chadwick himself was clearly wary of drawing too many conclusions from this cairn, for while it did indeed contain remains consistent with British dead, he was careful to note that ‘This does not necessarily indicate heavy casualties at these points’. The only evidence from survivors’ sources is even less ambiguous; Captain Essex, who took the order to Dyson’s section to withdraw from the ridge, merely noted that the Zulus ‘rushed forward as soon as our men disappeared below the crest’ – a phrase which does not suggest any direct conflict. There is, moreover, a complete absence of direct Zulu evidence from any warrior who claimed to have attacked Dyson’s section on the ridge – despite intense rivalry among the Zulu amabutho to claim the honour of being the first to ‘stab’ the white men. Similarly, was a working party from the camp really overwhelmed on the road behind Isandlwana? If so, who were they? All the available evidence suggests that a fatigue party of the 1/24th had been working on the road in front of Isandlwana, not behind, on the morning of the battle, in preparation for the forthcoming advance – but was recalled before the action began. Nor were the column’s scant compliment of Engineers in much of a position to work on the road that day - Lt. MacDowell, No. 3 Column’s Engineer officer, had been at Mangeni with Lord Chelmsford before the battle, and had only returned to Isandlwana as the Zulu attack developed; he was supposedly seen handing out ammunition at the height of the fighting, and his body was found in the camp, not by the road."

Mabaso, Ngwebini Valley, where Zulu Army was discovered
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As request photo of the valley above the Mabaso and the upper reaches of the Ngwebeni Stream, here is one of the route that the Zulu army would have taken while advancing out of the Ngwebeni Valley


Isandlwana-route of advance from summit of Magaga
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Photo's supplied by Ken Gillings.

Old Historian
The potential cairns you refer to are actually on the rim of the Telehane Ridge. Where the companies were engaging the right horn.
We visited the spot last year and no evidence could be found. Centre of this position is google earth 28 deg 20'32s , 30 deg 39@14E

the mystery cairn by the modern rd 28 deg 21'20s 30deg 37'57e

That the main Zulu army entered the fray from Ngwebeni is in no doubt,28 deg 18'33s 30deg 44'35e (kens image position) however the Left horn, which engaged Durnford must have been deployed earlier, and were in position well before the main force had been descovered as the distance is 3 miles+ over elevated ground, unless this is the zulu's Chard reported seeing earlier that morning, spilling over into the deep dongas on that side.

Google earth these grids to get my slant after the visit and close view we did this year

Vadette position on Nyoni ridge (by day) 28 deg 20' 50s 30 deg 42'06e, note height 1302m, the Zulu left horn in deep donga under the ridge 28 deg 20'45s 30 deg 42'33e, note height 1100m, thats nearly 200 meters (660ft) lower, and you cannot see hardly anything of hose dongas from the elevated position.

In the last photo is Isandlwana shown. Because I can't see it.

You can't see Isandlwana because the photo was taken looking in the opposite direction, from the top of the Nyoni heights, looking in the direction of the main Zulu advance.
Ken

Thanks Ken.
When the zulu,s commenced thier attack from this point, what British unit would thay have encounted first before moving on to the actual camp..apart from Raw's troop. I thinking the Rocket unit under Russell.

I also take it, at this point the Zulu's had not yet formed into the horns of the Buffaloe.

Although I am not giving the history of this battle, I cannot refrain from mentioning the dauntless courage of Dumford and the Natal Horse at this juncture. Arriving at Isandlwana, with his mounted men, soon after Lord Chelmsford had left it, Colonel Durnford, in a short conversation with Pulleine, 24th Begiment, the officer in local command, explained that he would at once advance against the Zulus, in order to find out what they were doing, and then, if necessary, he would fall back on the camp. But, on going out as arranged, he discovered that the Zulu force in the inunediate neighbourhood was much greater than he had anticipated. It was with some difficulty that he could even for a time hold in check that portion of the army (the central body) that he found in front of him. He did not cover sufficient ground to have any influence at all on the two wings (or horns) that were being pushed forward by the Zulu leaders, to cony out their usual tactics of surrounding their enemy. Under these circumstances he fell back slowly, by alternate squadrons, holding on as long as possible to each position occupied, and causing considerable loss by his fire to the brave savages who were attacking him. On arriving at the neck of land that connects Isandlwana Hill with the low range to the southward, Durnford saw that the Zulu horns had got in rear of the camp. A scattered figfat was in progress all over the plain, and a crowd of fugitives, chiefly Natal natives, were streaming away, in an endeavour to cross the river and get into Natal. He came to the conclusion that the only chance of saving any of those who were thus trying to escape, if not of retrieving the day, was to endeavour with a disciplined force to hold the neck. So he formed up and addressed his troopers, explaining the situation, and stating that he himself intended to stop on the neck. To a man, I believe, these horsemen from Natal caught their leader's enthusiasm.

I like to think this did happen.


Source: Recollections of a Life in the British Army During the Latter Half of the 19th Century"

CTSG
One can but dream.
As posted earlier, my sense of Victorian melodrama would love to agree , possibly even have them all on there knees praying while the blood thirsty masses go quiet and patiently wait there turn. :lol:

The Zulu army that took part in the attack on Isandlwana where did they come from? Did they all congregate at the royal kraal Ulundi before making their way to the Ngwebini Valley?

Neil you know about guns.
Came across this. Could it have been a problem for the British.

"Smoke was a problem. Continuous firing of artillery and black powder firearms raising a choking, sight-obscuring cloud of black smoke that makes it hard to breathe and hard to see your targets. In the time shortly before the British collapse, the regulars were mostly firing blind, hoping to hit a Zulu in the smoke and confusion. I'm not to sure."

The Big Guns didn't fire that many shells.

Not sure what amount of smoke the M.H. Would have made.

Littlehand. With regards to the smoke question, here’s a two photo’s one from Zulu Dawn and the other Zulu. I’m not sure how accurate this is, but as you can see there is quite a lot of smoke from just a small portion of the troops. Hopefully Neil could say if the smoke would have been a problem relating to vision. Also would the smoke have been a eye irritant.

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Might as well add one from the Cannons at Isandlwana.
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Little hand
As Old Historians pictures show the smoke from blackpowder is white, althought O-H's pictures show blank rounds being fired from 303 M-H Carbines, ( I cringe whenever I watch it) which are a nitro blank, with a thin whisp of smoke which dissipates quite quickly, Likewise in Zulu, alot of the Martinis are .303 MH which use the same loads.

A Blackpowder rifle will emit quite a cloud of smoke, however, as the men were well dispersed, and not shoulder to shoulder as later battles, this would not have too much of an effect. I cannot recall at time, of the 20+ visits I have made to Isandlwana, that there isn't a fair breeze blowing down the valley, if anything I hae found it quite windy in Jan, which would have made the smoke dissipate.

The cannon is more of a guide.
Take a look at the image here, this is the Diehard company and the 19th at Nothe Fort this September, I am in the Diehards rear rank, The cannon is blackpowder, The diehards are shooting pyrodex (a BP substitute) and the 19th blackpowder, not the colour of the pyrodex (more browney grey), but still a good indication of close order volleys.
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This goes back to my original thoughts...who lived to say, it was obscuring the view, who fired in the 24th ranks, to complain about smoke (and certainly not black smoke)? it is conjecture and nothing else.

Private George Mossop, who fought in the Zulu War of 1879, described how:


"‘We were armed with Martini-Henry rifles charged with black powder, and each shot belched out a cloud of smoke; it became so dense that we were almost choked by it - and simply fired blindly into it. There was one continuous roar from cannon, rifles and the voices of men on both sides shouting.
'The smoke blotted out all view. It made every man feel that all he could do was to shoot immediately in front of him - and not concern himself with what was taking place elsewhere.’"

Also found this extract. But this is from a Zulu Warrior.

Just before noon, there was an eclipse of the sun and a Zulu warrior of the uNotenke Regt. Said the “sun turned black in the middle of the battle. Then we got into the camp and there was a great deal of smoke and firing. Afterwards, the sun came out bright again.”

I’m not saying the smoke issue contributed to the loss of the camp, but the Zulu’s could have taken advantage of the smoke cover to get into the camp quicker.

Littlehand / 24th Thanks for those last posts. Neil does this not verify that smoke could have been a slight problem at Isandlwana.

G.

hi Neil.
In the diehards photo , what regiment and time period are you guy"s wearing.
Great photo by the way , how loud would the volley and cannon fire be at the same time ?
Not an easy question to supply an answer , but did you need to wear earplugs ?.
Neil I think I"m more excited in your trip than maybe you are , Looking forward to any new
pictures you may post :) .
cheers 90th.

Believe me, even if there was a lot of smoke the British would have taken full advantage of the cover. Today the fundamental function of the Smoke Grenade is to create cover. If anything it would have been more of a nuisance to the attacking force. Who needed to get up close to make a kill.

sas1

Neil. How long will it take you to get to your destination in SA. Does it take long to get from the airport in SA to the place where you will be staying.

G

Neil
Where are you staying in CPT, Im in and out through Jan, could be possible to meet up for a drink.

Regards

Springbok
We'll be there this coming sunday and monday, no doubt in the German Brewery!, The Raucus Drfiters, four of us including V.C (Colin Feilding) who is of that ilk!.

Regs
Neil

Im in CT on sunday and would love to get together Ill send you contact details in a PM.

Regards

Mr G
Traveling times: From Cape Town its a two hour flight to Durban and then a 3 hour drive to Fugitives Drift Lodge. Neil I believe is going the long way via Gingindlovu. ( K nown to the British soldiers as Gin Gin I love you).
Thats a long drive up the cost across the Tugela and through Eshowe then turning inland through Mellmoth ( past Ulundi ) through Babanango and over the Nyoni Ridge.

Springbok
Gor you message, so I'll give you a shout if we get time. You are correct on our route, looks like fun, and weather to suit.
Neil

Neil
Ill keep the weekend free.
Temps in the high 30's but expected to break tomorrow. PLEASE DO NOT BRING THE SNOW.

With apologises to the rest of the chaps: Neil there is website called Hummba.com that you can access from your cell. Once logged on your trip can be monitored, you can upload photos from your phone and also content, if its practical for you it could be fun for the site members to share your trip. Also of course any non traveling family.
In addition there is a GPRS gadget available from the car rental agancies, its called Tourism Radio, it gives a running commentary on areas you pass through.
As you aproach an item of significance it will tell you all about it. A lot of the commentary is by David Ratray. Ask for it when you pick up your car.
Again sorry guys for the waffle.

Regards

The next time we hear from Neil, will be when he's in SA. He will post a Photograph of himself holding a large glass of Gin, with Isandlwana in the background. And at the going down of the sun and in the morning we will remember him, and each and every time he downs a glass of gin (Lucky B******)

Sas1

OK I am back, fresh from Heathrow this morning, Springbok, I totally forgot to ring you when in CT, the fifth Stella had that effect, sorry.

Monday Capetown, and a visit to Cape Castle, home to 24th whilst in town.

So Tuesday we arrived in Durban, up the N2 to The Tugela. First stop was the ultimatun tree, sadly the original was lost to flood in 2007, however the new tree, germinated from the original is now growing strong, and a nice plaque has been erected under it. The short walk over the footbridge was worthwhile to visit fort Pearson. The pathways were very well kept, with the earthworks on the summit nicely cut, however deep scrub concealed much of the slopes, the view over the tugela, and fort Tenedos site stunning.
We continued along the route of No1 Column, first stop was Ginginlovu, unfortunately the battlefield is covered in Sugar cane, but worth the stop to orientate and photograph the memorial etc, as was the Nyezane battlefield, difficult to cover, but photos of the bluffs ideal for the album. Evening spent at Mtonjaneni, I met the owner of the farm where the Fort had been situated and had a very interesting chat about its post AZW history.

Wednesday morning we spent in the company of Wilfred at the Mtonjaneni museum, Wilfrds enthusiasm is infectious and the lads had to drag me off as the mist had began to clear,Mtonjaneni is my favorite place for artefacts. On along the R66 via Babanango, passing Mangeni, in the distance Isandwana was scowling under a blanket of low mist. That afternoon Rorkes Drift and some chance to aqquire images I required for the album

Thursday, We climbed the Oskerbeg in the company of two reporters fromn the Star (SA) newpaper doing a feature on Rorkes drift and Fugitives, afyer plying them with Gin on the wed they came with us and were truly stunned,Saturdays feature had a nice study of VC, Colin Feilding, a regular in our Drifters gang. Chances to catch up on some of the images mising from the album.

Friday 22nd, Isandlwana, it had to be, I had pre-arrange to meet Mike (Snook) at the battlefield, with me was Martin Everrett curator of the brecon Museum, we stood on Black Koppie until we fried discussing the events of 22.1.1879. Mike had a wreath to lay which we had a small service and silence at the 24th memorial. Lunch at isandlwana Lodge, (mike kindly showed me images of his trip to AbuKlea and Suakin...wow, but for another time) then myself and Mike went to study the original wagon road on the North western approach, still quite distinctive in places, main object of the walk was to study an old Kraal I had descovered last year after fire had cleared the impenetrable scrub, next to the Kraal (about 30 meters from the modern trail path) was a mass grave, 6 distinctive cairns on a 26 feet by 8 feet peice of ground. these had been painted in the last 12 months as they were not before. Objective is now to investigate the age of the kraal, which unusually had been made of very large boulders, not the usual 8-10" type found in the area to appertain its age. if this was pre 1879 it had most definately served as a strongpoint on the retreat, its felled occupants being buried in close proximity, we both conjectured that the grave contianed 30-40 bodies.
We walked back over the saddle as the sun was setting, the quiteness had now descended as all visitors had gone, the eeriness of the place took over, just the wind in the grass and the setting sun on the memorial,....nuff said.

Fugitves Trail Sunday Morning then back to blighty to let the liver recover from the gin fest. Now to book for next year!.....

Then let me be the first to welcome you back Neil. I hoping in anticipation, that you took quite a few photo’s.

Neil
Back into the land of the great white snowdrift. Sorry we couldnt get together. Im busy clearing the schedule for the next trip to KZN. Hopefully in March.

Regards

Neil. Good to see you back safe and well.

It looks like you had a busy time. We will let you get over the jetlag period, and then we can fire loads of questions at yer.

Welcome back Neil.

hi Neil.
Good to see you back safe and sound , looking forward to what you may post .
Wish I was there , along with many others from the forum.
cheers 90th.

JET LAG !!!

The condition of jet lag may last many days, and recovery rates of 1 day per eastward time zone or 1 day per 1.5 westward time zones are mentioned as fair guidelines.

Just trying to work out when Neil's going to tell us about his trip to S.A. Was he flying Westward, or Eastward.

Could be side affects of the GIN !!!!

sas1