WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyToday at 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom

» H.M.S. Forester
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyToday at 4:07 pm by johnex

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyYesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyYesterday at 10:53 am by Julian Whybra

» Samuel Popple
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyYesterday at 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES

» Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now available
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» Grave of Henry Spalding
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves

» John West at Kambula
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15

» Private Frederick Evans 2/24th
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T

» Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthy
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra

» William Jones Comment
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie

» Brother of Lt Young
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg

» Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra

» Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualties
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Absence of Vereker from Snook's Book
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock family
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan

» No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas Newman
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash

» Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's Drift
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan

» Studies in the Zulu War volumes
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Martini Henry carbine IC1 markings
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs

» James Conner 1879 clasp
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny

» 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf

» Frontier Light Horse uniform
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier

» Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24th
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash

» A Bullet Bible
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra

» Brothers Sears
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie

» Zulu War Medal MHS Tamar
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c

» Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyTue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai

» Shipping - transport in the AZW
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183

» 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BAR
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash

» A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
November 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
In deference to other online platforms discussing the history of the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
SRB1965
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
warrior3
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
Eddie
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
John Young
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
Dash
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
aussie inkosi
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
Kev T
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
Petty Officer Tom
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_leftAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? BarAt what Point Was The Battle Lost? Bar_right 
New topics
» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyYesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young

» Samuel Popple
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» John West at Kambula
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyMon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Oct 27, 2024 11:32 am by SRB1965

» Brother of Lt Young
At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Oct 26, 2024 9:52 pm by Eddie

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 At what Point Was The Battle Lost?

Go down 
+4
Frank Allewell
90th
Chelmsfordthescapegoat
impi
8 posters
AuthorMessage
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 pm

Hi. I'm just trying to work out at what point the battle was lost.

Was it at the point when Durnford retreated to the donga causing the firing line to become over extended, or when the Native Contingent broke and fled?

Or was it a combination of both? Idea
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySat Jul 31, 2010 11:59 pm

Hi impi. Good to see you still posting. Idea

The Native Contingent, were positioned with the artillery to the far left two cannons firing towards the east.

On the right of the guns there was a line of Bristish soldiers placed in extended order, which consisted of two companies of the 1/24th Regiment and one company of the 2/24th under the command of Lieutenant Pope with a large-opening between each regiment. Further to the right, and fair distance away, was Colonel Durnford with his men, who were making their last stand.

The Zulus were advancing in thousands, the chest moving from the north-east, countless numbers of Zulu’s were cut down. But the British front line had to fall back.
The Native Contingent were left in an advanced and secluded position by 1 pm even with their gallant defence, the Zulus had come up to within 300 yards. Ammunition was low and their firing no longer having any effect.

The Zulus moved forward; forcing the Native Contingent to break and run. At this point the Zulu’s at the run poured all the way through the gap. The beginning of the fearsome slaughter. The Zulu's avanced so fast that Cavaye and Mostyn had no time to reorganization or even to give the order to fix bayonets, the Zulu’s were among them.

Younghusband for a short time retreated to a terrace on the southern incline of the mountain, but it was all to soon before they joined their comrades.

Hope this helps. (Good Night)
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10909
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: at what point was the battle lost.   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Aug 01, 2010 5:39 am

hi Impi.
Call me a pesimist but the battle was lost once the Good Lord left the camp . Pulleine set out his forces as per
instructions set down in The Good Lord's standing orders for the invasion of zululand which he gave to all the
column commanders dated Dec 1878 from memory . Clearly these instructions were inadequate to say the least. There is no
mention of the British Square as it was considered old hat by this stage . No mention of Laager's , entrenchments
etc etc . The exact date of these instuctions is 23 /12 / 78 , almost a month to the day , we have 1500 dead British
and other forces lying on the blood stained ground of Isandlwana . I will post a link and please someone purchase
this , as it is very important to read and post so OTHERS on this forum can see for themselves how the disaster
was inevitable Suspect . I have no idea how to post this stuff Idea

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Take note of the opening article , also other articles which have had airing on the forum recently , ie - Addendorf .
These journals are well worth the money , many fascinating subjects concerning the zulu war . I have no qualms
about reccomending the series there are 16 editions available in this form , others are available on the net , but
you need to be a member to access them as far as I'm aware .
If someone does have this edition can they please post the Chelmsford Article .
cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptySun Aug 01, 2010 11:19 am

Impi
Have to agree with 90th.
However on the day of the battle the key moment was the left horn outflanking the mounted detachment. They outflanked Charlie Pope, Durbford and the mounted detachment extended the line but the Zulu just kept extended their enveloping move across the plain. Eventually they had force of numbers to push and push untill the mounted detachment had to retire in doing so they exposed Popes right flank. He had to wheel his force to try and protect the lines rear. That opened up the entire front of the camp to the left flank. The extreme left was defended for a while by the Durnford /Pullen stand.
Effectivly the battle was then over.
There was no ammo shortage, the firing line wasnt to spread out. If it had been merely a frontal assault the firing line could have held all day. Those two horns of the buffalo did exactly what iShaka designed them for.

Regards
Back to top Go down
mons14

mons14


Posts : 101
Join date : 2009-10-28

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 7:28 pm

A short excerpt from Mike Snook's book which I think plays well into this thread:

'...There was a very brief moment when the situation in front of the camp could have been saved. Had Durnford's command rallied enmass in the saddle, and ammunition had been brought up quickly, then the right might have been held, enabling the 24th to complete its withdrawl in good order, though G Company was doomed in any scenario. The fact is, though, that Durnford lost control, and most of his men fled the field. These early fugitives behaved reprehensibly, for the issue was not yet settled beyond a doubt. From the very instant that Durnford's men failed to rally, however defeat became inevitable.'

mons
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4358
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 65
Location : KENT

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 8:02 pm

Hi Mons14.

Its this based on fact. Or what may have happen.
Quote :
" Durnford lost control, and most of his men fled the field"
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com
mons14

mons14


Posts : 101
Join date : 2009-10-28

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 8:36 pm

The author, like all Isandlwana authors/historians develop conclusions based on surviving facts and logical speculation. Sadly the whole battle of Isandlwana is largely left to speculation.

So yes, strickly speaking this is what might have happened. At the end of the day, what you choose to believe is your own choice. However the following passage is what I thought was most important to this thread,

From the very instant that Durnford's men failed to rally, however defeat became inevitable

This statement is in keeping with what most historians believe is true: The moment of Durnford's retreat, and the opening up of the right is the moment that battle left British control.

Here are some numbers that seem to help support the authors conclusions, now I know not all of these men were directly with Durnford - I think it was just the 1st. Bn. 1st. Regt. NNC, but the numbers of thoes survived is pretty large:

Natal Mounted Police
Strength: 2 Officers and 34 men.
Killed: 2 Officers and 25 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 10 men

1st Bn. 1st Regt. NNC
Strength: 5 Officers 318 men
Killed: 2 Officers and 10 men
Survived: 2 Officers 308 men

1st. Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Stength: 11 Officers 231 men
Killed: 8 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 2 Officers 208 men

2nd Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Strength: 9 Officers and 328 men
Killed: 9 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 300 men

Natal Native Mounted Contingent
Stength: 6 Officers and 257 men
Killed: 1 Officer 27 men
Survived: 5 Officers and 200 men


On a side note - wouldnt it have been fantastic if all thoes survivors would have been interviewed after the fact....How much more would we know to today???

mons
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:08 pm

He didn't have much luck at Bushman's River Pass

Where he showed great courage but received two assegai stabs, one in his side, the other in his elbow; severing a nerve thus paralysing his left under-arm and hand for the rest of his life. Durnford managed to shoot two of his assailants with his revolver and to extricate himself. His Carbineers had abandoned him, but his loyal Basuto troopers stood by him.
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:15 pm

Chelmsford left around 1300 men at Isandlwana did this include Durnford and his troops that were brought up from R.D

I maybe reading this wrong.

Quote :
Natal Mounted Police
Strength: 2 Officers and 34 men.
Killed: 2 Officers and 25 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 10 men

1st Bn. 1st Regt. NNC
Strength: 5 Officers 318 men
Killed: 2 Officers and 10 men
Survived: 2 Officers 308 men

1st. Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Stength: 11 Officers 231 men
Killed: 8 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 2 Officers 208 men

2nd Bn. 3rd Regt. NNC
Strength: 9 Officers and 328 men
Killed: 9 Officers and 28 men
Survived: 0 Officers and 300 men

Natal Native Mounted Contingent
Stength: 6 Officers and 257 men
Killed: 1 Officer 27 men
Survived: 5 Officers and 200 men

Are these the men that were with Durnford at Isandlwana.

If you keep seeing me coming and going. Her in-doors is up-stairs ironing. Thought she was coming down. Shocked


Back to top Go down
joe

joe


Posts : 600
Join date : 2010-01-07
Location : UK

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 9:46 pm

Impi,
I think it was just the 1st Bn 1st Rgt that was with Durnford, as Mons14 said before, corect me if im wrong.

And I think it was just the British soldiers who were counted in the 1300, again im happy to be corrected

thanks joe
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:21 pm

Thanks Joe.

How many British Soldiers took part in the battle of Isandlwana. Idea
Back to top Go down
24th

24th


Posts : 1862
Join date : 2009-03-25

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyWed Aug 04, 2010 11:53 pm

At what point was the Battle Lost !

It was when the last British Soldier was killed.

Back to top Go down
mons14

mons14


Posts : 101
Join date : 2009-10-28

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: Re: At what Point Was The Battle Lost?   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 1:21 am

I've checked a couple books now, and can confirm that Durnford had the 1st Bn. 1st Regt. NNC with him during the battle.

So of the 5 Officers 318 men of this unit, 2 Officers 308 men survived the battle.

Provides us with very strong evidence that supports Mike Snooks very well grounded position that:

" Durnford lost control, and most of his men fled the field"

Below is the casualty numbers for Isandlwana -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10909
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

At what Point Was The Battle Lost? Empty
PostSubject: what point was the battle lost.   At what Point Was The Battle Lost? EmptyThu Aug 05, 2010 6:06 am

hi Mons14 / impi.
I have looked up the 1st Batt 1st Regt NNC in the John Young book ' They Fell Like Stones ' according to it
From that Regt he had only 2 Coy's , D and E , about 240 men.
cheers 90th.
Back to top Go down
 
At what Point Was The Battle Lost?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Not lost all ...!!!
» New digital short works series for Penguin
» Lost Fortifications

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: