The Missing Two Companies.

At the risk of repeating myself............

Most authors and historians have dissmissed the concept of two companies being savaged before the main battle. However every now and then a snippet surfices that tends to throw a spanner in the works.
Lke this one from a report by Canon Charles Johnson, missionary of St Augustines, Isandlwana. The report was written and refers to events mid 1879 untill the end of 1879.
he refers to leaving PMB on the 28th November to commence building the mission. He was accompanied by the Ven. Archdeacon Usherwood and George Smith (of RD fame). Along the way to isandlwana they picked up Fynn and the Resident Mr Wheelwright at RD.
We reached Isandlwana the day apointed through out the colony as a thanksgiving day for the restoration of peace. we rode over the field and selected a good spot for the future methodist church on the site of the late camp of the 24th, and having erected a small iron cross that we brought up with us on a cairn of stones ( site of the H company stand, and still there ) to mark the site..................It took us six days to get the wagons to Isandlwana from Rorkes Drift, a distance of only twelve miles and usually accomplished in as many hours. The site that our little establishment occupies is excellently suitable. There is a fine spring of water which we have brought under the hill at some distance close to our doprs in pipes made out of the iron ferrules of the tentpoles found on the battlefield( these lay thick on the ground where the tents had burned). We collected them and fitted them together they make excellent water pipes.
We are well sheltered behind a half circle of hills while in front some few hundred yards distantce stands isandlwana itself. ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS WE DID AFTER ARRIVAL WAS TO BRING THE NUMEROUS SKELETONS LYING ALL ABOUT ON THE SITE OF OUR FUTURE HOME. From waht I can gather from the zulus ONE OR PERHAPS TWO COMPANIES ESCAPED, OCCUPIED THIS SITE AS AN OUTPOST. THERE ARE TWO STONE ROADS WITHIN A COUPLE OF HUNDRED YARDS OF EACH OTHER AND IT SEEMS THAT THEY WERE DRIVEN AFTER A GALLANT DEFENCE OUT OF THE FIRST KRAAL BY THE THE MIDDLE OF THE RIGHT HORN OF THE ZULU ARMY AS IT ADVANCED. THEY THEN TOOK UP THEIR POSITIONS IN THE SECOND KRAAL WHICH BY ALL ACCOUNTS THEY MUST HAVE HELD WELL, BUT EVENTUALLY THEIR AMMUNITION FAILED THEM FOR THEY ATTEMPTED A RETREAT ON THE CAMP............................Of course i only have native evidence to go on and at best one can only conjecture and guess, but i think THAT THERE IS VERY LITTLE DOUBT THAT THIS IS THE PLACE WHERE THE TWO COMPANIES OF THE 2/24TH WERE SUPPOSED TO BE ON PICKET DUTY AND WERE NEVER HEARD FROM AGAIN, FOUGHT AND DIED.

The site they refer to has to be close to the present Church. That puts it well outside the accepted perimeter of the fight.

Thoughts gentlemen?

Regards

Thanks Springbok. Its there any chance of getting a map of the area you speak of, in relation to where the Battle to place. Who was in commard of these 2 units

Hi Dave
Best would be to try Google Earth. The Western anchor of the defence line was on the Northern end of the mountain. The eastern anchor was on the donga closest to the conical koppie. The Church is around 1/3 rd of that distance along from the mountain and further North tucked under the ridge itself. Its at least 350/400 yards in front of the firing line and potentially on the route Dyson, Mostyn and Cavaye could have used to get down of the ridge.
Canon William Lummis is of the opinion that it was a section of C Company under Younghusband. That theory doesnt quite fit, they would then have had to fight through the whole right horn and chest to get back through the enemy to their eventual last stand.
I get the impression reading the report that it was either the companies coming down of the ridge or a section that was cut of when the line broke and was isolated.
Certainly a topic for discussion.
Regards

By Julian Whybra (Well Known Zulu War Historian)

Quote :

"The responses to the initial question, I feel, have resulted in a distortion of events and warrant closer inspection and a proper analysis. This is not to decry the responses
themselves; it is merely to sift the speculation from the history to leave us with, as nearly as possible, the truth. Basically we have before us two sets of apparently contradictory testimony. First, there is Essex, writing the next day, reporting to Chelmsford on the worst disaster the British Army has ever suffered. He has nothing to gain by inventing falsehoods. He states that he was ordered to bring down the left of the line by Melvill (who brought down the right of the line). This would not have been done as a mad rush or melee of individuals; it would have been done professionally by section and by company and covering for one another. Other units (the guns, A coy, C coy) were drawn up at the foot of the spur to assist in covering the withdrawal. Essex states that this was accomplished without loss.

A portion of the NNH did not retire directly down the spur; Nyanda states that his portion was a little mixed up with the redcoats by the time it reached the foot of the spur. No officer would have left a man for whom he was responsible behind and no soldier would have left a comrade in the lurch. The withdrawal occurred not because the men on the ridge were being pressed but as the result of an order from Pulleine who desired to consolidate his line of defence closer to camp. There is nothing to suggest that this was a disorderly withdrawal resulting in heavy casualties. Elsewhere it is stated that he saw Dyson (who’d been on the extreme left on the ridge) at the foot of the spur. Secondly, there is Mehlokazulu, relating the story (through an interpreter over a year later) of what was happening on a part of the battlefield which he was not involved with and which he himself did not participate in (he was with the left horn). Yes, I grant you that Zulu oral history is marvellous, and, yes, I grant you that he would have spoken with those who did participate in it but if one sets Mehlokazulu’s version of events on the ridge against the stories of those Zulus who were present with the right horn on the ridge, does one not perceive a Chinese whispers effect in Mehlokazulu’s account? Read Uguku and the uNokenke deserter’s accounts for yourself. There is no melee. There are no hand-to-hand fights, there is no section left behind. When the Zulus tried to advance over the ridge (and were silhouetted against the sky), at 400 yds range, they were fired at with such effect they forced to withdraw back over the ridge.

Who can you believe, Zulus from different regiments who were there, or Mehlokazulu, who was not? Raw’s comment E and F coys does not relate to the withdrawal down the spur. It relates to the withdrawal from the firing line to the camp at the end of the battle and is irrelevant to this question. Chelmsford’s comment that a company ‘went off and was not heard of again’ was made in the immediate aftermath of the battle and is easily explained either as a reference to Barry’s NNC coy or, coming from an officer out with Durnford (Davies / Henderson / Cochrane perhaps) relating to E coy (the last they would have seen of it was before Durnford’s departure when that officer ordered it up to the ridge. By the time Durnford & co. returned, they would merely have seen the Zulus on the ridge and no sign of E coy). Such a remark made in error could easily have been made to Chelmsford in the day or two that followed and included by Chelmsford almost as an afterthought in one of his reports. Or it was simply an erroneous remark - there is no mention of such an event occurring by the time the Official Narrative is published! Next there is Chadwick’s note that 40 more cairns were found in bad state of repair (some of them on the ridge with buttons etc found). The bones of some 20 or so men were found 700 yards to the north-west of the ridge."

This is MUCH too far out. Dyson was 500 yards to the west of Cavaye on the ridge. Thus the bones etc. were found in the wrong direction and too far out. A burial party sent out later in 1879 specifically to look for bodies on the ridge failed to find any. Boast in 1880 makes no mention of cairns this far out, nor do they appear on his map (neither does he show any on the spur either!). So what were they (past tense, for there is no sign of these cairns today)? I suggest two alternatives. One, the bones of dead Zulus placed there long after the battle and ‘cairned’ (the burial party would not have known who they were) - one or two odd items of 24th equipment taken, as was the Zulu custom, from the bodies of those they hade killed before being wounded themselves and dying later). Two, the remains of Lieut Roberts and ‘group’ - there was a persisitent rumour that Roberts had been killed by friendly fire on the ridge. As I originally stated here is no evidence that any of the 24th on the ridge were cut off nor that the withdrawal was anything other than an orderly well-executed one.The British would have much to malign themselves about at Isandhlwana."

Good Points By Julian Whybra. Mr Greaves I take it this was from the RDVC

Good morning. A few metres below St Vincent's Church is a stone building that contains the skeletal remains of some unidentified soldiers and warriors. I'll check my notes but have an idea that these date from Charles Johnson's and Bishop McKenzie's time at the mission.
Regards, Ken

Nice repost Mr G
Ive read Julians comments before, he makes a valid arguement, most probably the correct one. However I believe its a tad unfair to dismiss the late George Chadwicks views in such a cavalier fashion. It does not address the statement of Charles Johnson either. Johnson was not unsupported, he was in the presence of those other luminaries I noted.
Yet again the position of St Vincents is removed from the front line, and although its not mentioned in the statement Johnson must have had some reason to believe the skeletons moved were soldiers rather than Zulu, otherwise why comment?
Ken
Hark back to our talks on Georges views of bodies outside the perimeter.

Regards

Something else that one tends to overlook is the fact that considerable damage had been done to bodies by dogs, Hyaenas, Jackals and birds of prey. While it is unlikely that dozens would have been dragged from the main part of the battlefield, it is very likely that several were.
Regards, Ken

Without doubt Ken. Many different reasons for bodies being moved, not least the various burial parties amassing piles.
Johnson is very clear in his discription, " numerous skeletons lying all about on the site of our future home." Indicates a large stand had taken place.
Its a pity he didnt elaborate on his 'native evidence' to explain his description of defending a kraal and then retreating to a second kraal and eventually towards the main camp. He goes on to say they only made it another 100 yards before being killed. Difficult to make up a sequence of events like that so one would believe he had it from a source close to the action. When he wrote this his companions do not appear to have voiced any dissent ( George Smith in particular.)

Is it not possible that these men were captured at Isandlwana, and executed at the area you speak of? Or could they have been possibly fleeing the Battlefield. Are we talking miles away from where the main Battle took place?

Ken Say's “

Quote :

Something else that one tends to overlook is the fact that considerable damage had been done to bodies by dogs, Hyenas, Jackals and birds of prey.”

I take the meaning of this, that the bodies were over looked for some time is that correct.

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Ken, Springbok. Is this the Church in-question.
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Source. RDVC

Could this be the first Chuch in-question.
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It is. I'll post a photograph of the 'tomb of the unknown soldiers' once I've had an opportunity to find it.
Ken

Its that not the side from where the Zulu launched their attack on Isandlwana.

littlehand
Your quite correct. This is the area where the chest came down of the ridge. Its a good photo in that it shows how far removed the church is from the battlefield.

regards

Impi
The 're occupation' of the area for the mission station took place in November 1879 so some 9 months after the battle. There were a few kraals dotted around the area, with the kraals come the dogs so yes there would have been a fair bit bone movement. Not enough I would suggest to get the comments from Johnson.
Littlehands photo shows the distance from the firing line, slightly in front of the visible road.
Cant see the Zulus taking prisoners moving them 500 metres and then killing them, the blood lust was up the troops died where they fought. Same really for trying to escape, they would have been moving through the main body of Zulu. The only conclusion to be drawn, if they are indeed British soldiers, is that they were coming down of the ridge or they were an outpost. There are numerous mentions of the companies on the ridge and their withdrawl to the camp, no mentions of an outpost at all. Mike Snook does mention a forward attacking movement from I think H company, but that was a matter of moving onto the rocky ridge line to get a better field of fire.
Julian in his post goes to great trouble to describe the withdraawl from the ridge as an orderly movement, but that is speculation. Other authors describe the retreat 'in some confusion'. Its also possible that this is the area that Roberts died with friendly fire.
By the way those trees would not have existed in 1879, they are all invasive imports, black wattle etc. So this attacking line would have been clear apart from the buffalo grass.

Regards

So is the story in lay-mans terms about the Missing two companies.

Hi Mr G
The original report from Charles Johnson wasnt so much about the missing companies more about the establishment of St Augustins an St Vincents. It just contained the passages Ive quoted.
This thread, yes, all about the theoretical missing companies. Ive never been convinced either way but I do believe that there are unanswered questions. ( Like most aspects of this battle )

Regards

Hi all .
From a Collegue ..............

"Firstly, the 'Missing Companies' thread. I looked at this in some detail in an article called 'The Myth of the Missing Companies' in the June 2001 issue of the AZWHS Journal. The story seems to have come about because Chelmsford mentions in his early despatches that he had heard two companies had marched out, and he didn't know what happened to them - Mehlokazulu also mentions the same incident. These of course reflect the confusion of the battle, and are presumably references to Mostyn and Cavaye's companies, and we know from other sources (Essex, for example) that these later retired from the ridge and joined the line - a ring belonging to Mostyn was later found 'on the battlefield' (an ambiguous phrase, I admit, but one which implies that it was located in the main battle area, rather than, say, 'away from the battlefield' or 'on the outlying area of the battlefield'). There is of course no evidence from survivors that any heavy hand-to-hand fighting took place on the ridge, and no Zulu traditions that the amabutho in the Zulu right overwhelmed anyone up there. More to the point, perhaps, is this reference from Lt. O'Connell of the 60th Rifles who completed a tidying-operation on the battlefield in March 1880, burying those remains that were still then on the surface. O'Connell specifically 'made inquiries of natives respecting the kraal where it was said two companies of the 24th Regiment had fallen, but they knew nothing about it. Mr Johnson, the missionary, residing near the field, informed me that he had also made inquiries about this kraal, but that the natives had never heard of it. He believed the story to have no foundation. (Report dated Pietermaritzburg April 16 1880 in British Parliamentary Papers C-2676). What's interesting about this reference is that it post dates the first suggestion - apparently also made by Johnson - that the bodies of large numbers of 24th had to be cleared away from the site when work was started on the present St Vincent's church. This suggests that either Johnson was misquoted the first time round or - more probably - changed his mind. He probably knew the rumour of the missing companies when he arrived at the site, and it need not be doubted that he found skeletons there - the Zulu chest had suffered heavily as it descended the heights and it would have been impossible for the Zulus to remove all their dead in the immediate aftermath of the battle. So Johnson finds a lot of skeletons - after so much time it would have been difficult at first glance to tell British from Zulu (remember the Zulus removed a lot of equipment and uniform items from the British dead) and his first thought is that these are the so-called 'missing companies'. But then, as time goes on, he starts to make inquiries, and realises they were not; and certainly if O'Connell took the time to ask after this particular story, when he was on site and tasked to bury any remains that had been missed hitherto, and found no truth in it, I see no reason to doubt him.

"cheers 90th.

90th Thank your Collegue for the excellent over-view. Tell him he should write a book.

If they couldn’t tell if they were British or Zulu, the likelihood is that they were Zulu. There were thousand killed, and the other Zulu’s supposedly carried bodies off the field, I’m thinking there was far to many to carry, so some were drag to the area in-question and left there. Just A thought.

impi. Good point. This from Kingdom in Crisis'

"After the battle, those of the Zulu army who did not immediately disperse stayed encamped close to the battlefield for three days, mainly on account of the large number of wounded whom they could not move, many being in a critical condition. There were also the dead to be considered. Although there is some evidence that the Zulu slain were left where they had fallen, with each corpse simply covered with a shield, whenever a friend or relative (who had that obligation) had been able to locate it, it seems clear that most were decently buried or hidden away in dongas, antbear holes and mealie-pits."

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

And one from the most leading authority on the Anglo Zulu War. “Wet With Yesterday’s Blood” by Ian Knight

"The majority of the last stands were over by about 3.30, though here and there isolated knots or individuals held out until much later. Once the focus of the fight had shifted to the Manzimnyama valley and the pursuit of the fugitives, the Zulus who had fought in the camp turned their attention to the great prize they had won. They carried away anything of military value they could find, smashing open boxes and ripping sacks in their search for ammunition and supplies. They looted the camp of the many fascinating artefacts the British had carried with them, and pulled down the tents, cutting up the canvas into easy strips to take away. By late afternoon, the great army had begun to retire back towards the Ngwebeni valley, where they had started the day, carrying their loot and their wounded with them. Friends and relatives of the dead dragged many of the corpses into the dongas which flow below the present site of the St. Vincent’s mission, and covered them over. Other corpses were simply left with their shields covering their faces in token burial. It would be months before the British returned to bury their dead, covering the bones with piles of stones, the origins of the cairns which are a conspicuous feature of the site today."

Hi Pete.
I have mentioned it to him on many ocassions . I'm sure it would be popular amongst the Zulu War Fraternity .
I think Our Neil Aspinshaw could / should write a book as well . I certainly would be one of many who would buy it , Signed
of course !!!. :lol!: .
cheers 90th.

One of my posts didn't appear to make it. Mehlokazulu kaSihayo told the Rev Lee (who was 'posted' to Isandlwana shortly after the War): "A little more and they would have broken and retreated as many afterwards told me ‘We died’, they said ‘ngamaviyo’ (ie, by companies), ‘but at that moment the supply of ammunition began to fail.’ "
The 'little more' refers to the intensive rifle fire that the British line poured into the ranks of the chest, which swarmed down the slopes of the Nyoni hill, which of course includes where St Vincent's is situated.
The reference to 'ngamaviyo (ie, by companies)' of course means 'by the multitude'. I am pretty certain that most of the remains discovered by the Rev Charles Johnson would have been Zulu.
For some odd reason, I can't find my photo of the 'tomb of the unknown warrior', so will re-photograph it when I return to Isandlwana in January.
I know that many people dispute Mehlokazulu kaSihayo's comments, but his son, Mnandi kaMehlokazulu, was pretty consistent when I had the privilege of listening to him!
Regards, Ken

Thank you gentlemen
Nice to have that little mystery packed away.

Regards

90th
Small nagging thought for your colleague, and others i suppose. He, Julian, Ian Knight etc all refer to the 'possible' bodies in the St Vincent area and on the ridge as being Zulu. The fact that various army artifacts were discovered with them has been put down to the robbing of the dead British Soldiers and being carried away.
My nagging thought is this........ dead Zulus would have a difficult time carrying away anything. So the spoils of war would have been taken by those able to pillage and transport. Not badly wounded, so badly wounded that they were going to die within a few yards.

Just a thought to be crushed.

Regards

Hi Springbok.
Interesting thought you pose , possibly with the victorious zulu attempting to carry way to much some was left behind
in their efforts of leaving the area . Also I dont think it was a huge amount of equipment that we would be talking about ?.
cheers 90th.

Its a bit of an enigma really. For Johnson to have assumed he was moving British bodies I would assume there would be sufficient amounts of uniform accoutrements attached to those bodies. Chadwicks observations on the ridge and on the slope of the spur were more of the things that would suvive the elements, garter buckles etc. Still cant quite get the picture of dying zulus wearing bits of british clothing. Especially that the zulus killed in such droves on that slope, and even into the camp, were dead before the looting started.
Also consider that Johnson was not alone. Ive never seen or heard George Smith ,Flyn or the other people with him actually contradict his report. It was only in later years that he retracted his statements attributed to the local Zulus re the kraal fights. He never retracted his comments on the bodies.

Dont you just love this battle for its questions.

Regards

Hi Springbok.
I do love it , but it can do my head in at times . Tomorrow is the start of the Ashes Series , will you be
taking an interest ?.
cheers 90th.

ps. Do you own a copy of ' By The Orders Of The Great White Queen ' ?. Some interesting anecdotes and facts .
Well worth a read .

90th
Definitly, a strong interest. England team is after all the South African B team. :lol!:

Good Luck Mate

Quote :

I am pretty certain that most of the remains discovered by the Rev Charles Johnson would have been Zulu.

That makes sense; there was very little mention of British Equipment. There would have been remnants of some sort buttons ECT

This is a letter to Dyson's farther from the South Africa Campaign

"The last person who saw your son and escaped, that I can find, was Captian Essex, 75th Regt, acting transport officer. He tells men that just before the Zulu horns got round our flanks and the last overwhelming rush was made, Dyson was with one section of his company, which was in skirmishing order to the left-front of camp."

Simple as that, Dyson was not killed on the Spur.



Cheers

Who wrote this letter. Does Essex give a time when he saw Dyson.

Chard

Dyson was last seen

" with one section of his company, which was in skirmishing order to the left-front of camp."

Left front of the camp, not on the spur, so he made it back to his company main body.

DB. Echo Chards words. Is there a time given when Essex claimes to have seen Dyson.

"The following is an extract from a letter written to the father of Lt. Edwards Hopton Dyson:

 ‘The last person who saw your son and escaped, that I can find, was Captain Essex, 75th Regiment, Acting Transport Officer. He tells me that just before the Zulu horsa got round our flanks and the last overwhelming rush was made, Dyson was with one section of  his Company, which was in skirmishing order to the left-front of the camp. He gave orders to retire, and I believe, from another witness, that he and all his Company rejoined the main body without loss. The five Companies were then together in a line, giving volley after volley into dense masses of Zulus at only 150 yards range. The men were laughing and chatting, and thought they were giving the blacks an awful hammering, when suddenly the enemy came down in irresistible numbers from the rear; the left and right flanks came in with a rush, and in a few moments all was over.’"

LH

Dyson was last seen on the

"with one section of his company, which was in skirmishing order to the left-front of camp."

Not on the Spur, infront of the camp, so he made it down saftly.



Cheers