Zulu - spot the mistakes

Zulu - can you spot the mistakes? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

JohnB

Quote :

In the scene where Michael Caine shoots at the leopard, you can see the trainer in the clump of trees beckoning the animal on.

As anyone seen this.!!!!

There are that many errors, deliberate mistakes, artistic licence, etc, (call them what you like) in this film, and most of it done in an attempt to con the people into believing that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was a Welsh regiment called the SWB, that it is almost nearly all fiction.

It did get a lot of people interested in the Zulu war of 1879, but once those people start to research the Zulu war, they find out the true identity of the regiment that fought at Rorke's Drift, and that regiment was the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment.

Why Baker and his gang went to such lengths to make people believe that the 24th was a Welsh regiment and create this myth, is anyones guess, unless of course, it was an attempt to alter history, but why? The only reason that anyone can think of is that Baker was very much anti English.

Now that people can do a lot of research online, this myth of the 24th being a Welsh regiment called the SWB during the Zulu war, is at long last being busted, and not before time.

The film itself will always be a classic, I watch it everytime it's screened (mostly to pick out all the faults and all the fiction), but it is now about time that it was remade, and this time get it both accurately and historcally correct, and put to bed the myth created by Bakers almost fictional film.

good evening

Yeah, that's a historical film, it's hilarious ...

Cheers

Pascal

Why is it hilarious? i have watched it 100's times and not laughed

Hi Towerboy .
I cant say I've laughed in the movie either , I think Pascal may have been lost in translation as he sometimes is . :lol!: .

Littlehand .
I'm going to have a look !! .
cheers 90th.

Because this movie isn't historically correct?( It's a fictionnal film )

Regards

YMOB

Hi Littlehand .
Well , I've just watched that scene a dozen times or so !. It seems as there may be someone on a horse to the right hand side
of the trees to which the leopard is running , as Caine is about to fire , this Horse / Rider goes behind the trees moving to the left
which will bring him into the path of the leopard who is running to the left of the clump of trees !. Hope this makes sense ! . I can
honestly say I've never noticed this before and I hate to think how many times I've watched Zulu . :lol!:
cheers 90th. .

Ymob .
We all realise it isnt historically correct , but I've still never laughed during it .

Hi all

That make me laugh.

It's non-compliance history of the thing in many ways and and ditto for Zulu Dawn, for historical reconstructions with TV series and documentaries, cinema and historical associations ...

They have no excuses, it's misinformation to the public...

Cheers

Pascal

Ymob .
We all realise it isnt historically correct , but I've still never laughed during it . [/quote][quote]

Hi 90th,

Me too. I enjoy this movie since i was a child.
"Zulu" and "Zulu Dawn" ("L'ultime attaque" in French) are at the origin of my passion for this conflict.
You can translate "it's hilarious" (for a french) by "it's not a historical reconstruction".
No blasphemy of my part!!!

Cheers

YMOB

Neither of mine ,for the most belligerent of the time...

But I do not think the same of the filmmakers, ect ...

Cheers

Pascal

I know exactly what you guys mean about the historically innacuracy. I felt exactly that when I first saw " Carry on up the Khyber". So inaccurate that I forgot I was watching a brilliant piece of comedy.

:face:

Hi springbok

Yes, 'Carry on up the Khyber', very funny. What was the regiment called? the something regiment of foot (and mouth), :lol!:

They made some great films did the Carry on lot, I laugh at them every time they are screened, real British humour.

Martin.

Yes but when you're passionate about military history, I do not do good to see the massacre of historical realism ... :affraid:

And that applies to all films in all historical periods

Viewing "Zulu Dawn" it is hilarious, because the filmmakers make fun of the realism of things :affraid: ...

Finally the music of these films are very well ...

:cheers: Pascal

Hi Pascal

The 'Carry on' films were a deliberate 'micky take' of some events from history, they were made as comedies to make people laugh, they were not made as serious films.

But I agree with you that serious films that are supposed to depict actual events from history, should be made accurately and historically correct, and this is where 'Zulu' and to lesser extent 'Zulu Dawn' both fail.

'Zulu' was a deliberate and blatant attempt to misguide people into believing that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) Regiment was a Welsh regiment, and 'Zulu Dawn' also kept this myth going (but to a lesser extent), by playing 'Men of Harlech' when the men were marching, and by having the Welsh sounding (Williams) characters. So yes, I agree that serious films that depict historical events, should be made as accurate as possible, and give people the true facts of what happened, and the real names of the regiments that took part in the battles.

Martin.

And by having the welsh sounding name Williams characters, nothing wrong with that, my last count on the rolls for the 24th 1st & 2nd was 50+ Williams.

Welsh, although it made me laugh because when the British army had new uniforms after 1881, and the old colors facings were abolished, in Favour of national facings, well, the Welsh have worn the white color of the English. ..

Baker reminds me of separatist Bretons, Basques and Corsicans in France, but you people do not seem to estimate my Welsh cousins​​?

There may be welsh on the forum ?...

Cheers

Pascal

And French :lol!:

zzzzzzzzzzzz, it is too easy to criticise truly classic film, isn't it?
And a film it is, not a documentary. This film, if it were a person, would have been knighted by now for sevices to the appreciation of the Anglo-Zulu war.

And let's not go getting our knickers in a twist about the 24th's name. We could get our knickers in a twist about the name of the war itself couldn't we? Anglo as in England might wrongly imply that it was England alone versus the Zulu nation, when clearly this is a myth/con/wrong call it what you want.

Julian Whybra has clarified perfectly well that there were no Welsh or English regiments in 1879. They were British regiments

And it's that simple!!

Quote :

They were British regiments

Hi Tasker

In any case even if there was another film on the Zulu War, it would still be a good laugh :joker: :joker: ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pourquoi dites-vous cela ?

Parce que lorsqu'on aime l'histoire militaire et que l'on connait un peu la chose militaire sous tous ses aspects concermant la guerre des zoulous,c'est deux films là,me font bien rigoler...

Ok, mais pourquoi pensez-vous qu'un nouveau film serait le même? . Ne pensez-vous pas que les cinéastes modernes essayer d'être plus précis?


I am sorry my french is not very good by the way .

Gary.

No, they want to do the spectacular,

Look TV series "Rome" Spartacus "" The Tudors "and" The Borgias "...
This is the kind of crap that would have the right with a new film about the Zulu War ... (Excuse me I thought you were Romanian)

English , live in Romania , work for a French company ......... my boss is German - and my mate 90th is an Aussie -but it is not his fault :lol!: :lol!:

Cheers , Gary.

Pascal, if you dont want to watch dont watch, i have been to RD & ISANDLWANA, collected zulu medals for years, read loads of zulu war books, and watched Zulu & Zulu Dawn too many times to mention, but i do still enjoy them now, most action war films are not true to history, but made for viewing and entertainment, like i said if you dont want to watch dont watch!!!!!!!

:joker: Hi All.
I've just finished watching Zulu for the I dont know how many times that will be now . The ' Men Of Harlach ' never ceases to
get the hair on my neck to stand up , I had it that loud I'm sure the neighbours sang along as well . :joker:
cheers 90th.

Gaywilson1

I thought that because there are many Romanian " Francophones..."

Cheers

Pascal

What do you, I love only the historical realism ,also for me "zulu"+"zulu dawn" = :sleep:

u :joker:

u :joker:

Well, as the heading of this topic is; ZULU - SPOT THE MISTAKES. That is just what I was doing, isn't it?

And saying that the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was a regiment of the British Army, ie; like you say, it was a BRITISH REGIMENT, why then did Baker and his gang go out of their way into trying to make people believe it was a Welsh one?

Why couldn't they just have given the real name of the regiment and said it was a British regiment, rather than try to convince people that it was Welsh?

Why say in the film that it was a Welsh regiment, with a few forigners in it from England, when it wasn't?

Why the numerous fictional characters (Including the Ivor Emmanuel character Owen) with Welsh sounding names?

Why pretend there was a choir? was it so that Ivor Emmanuel could sing 'men of harlech' to keep up the pretence that it was a Welsh regiment?

We all know that the 'sing off' never took place, but if it had, they would NEVER have sang 'men of harlech', as the regimental song of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment was 'The Warwickshire Lads', so again it was another con to give folk the impression that it was a Welsh regiment.

There are that many examples of inaccuracy and falseness in this film, that it is almost fiction, even Baker himself added to this falsness, he was Welsh, but yet ironically, he played the roll of an Englishman, but then again, he would want to play the role of the supposed hero wouldn't he?

Yes, Julian did sort all this out with his post just before Christmas, when he showed that the overwhelming majority of the men were English, and that ALL the VC's won by the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment went to Englishmen.

Yes, normally, they were all British, but what region?
There is evidence that many committed under a false name ...

On the subject of myths Martin, why do you persist in peddling the myth that the VC winners at RD were English? Clearly, culturally, geographically, Monmouthsire is Welsh and always has been, right down to the names of the villages in the county. If you want to take a different view, that is fine but allow others to hold their views also.
Robert Jones VC, is from Penrhos. A Welsh word meaning "red hill" or something.
Just because Monmouthsire was under English administration at the time, does not mean its folks were English, any more than we could claim George Best to be English because the little part of Ireland where he was born was under the administration of Westminster at the time.
I was recently reading about a man who had died at iSandlwana, who enlisted at Monmouth, and his family have a vault at a little church in Penarth just West of Cardiff. According to Julian and you, this makes him English as he enlisted in Momouthshire and his birth place is not known, but I fail to see that this is so. He is clearly Welsh isn't he?.
Norman Holme's classic, "The Noble 24th" is still the best we have at attempting to assign whether men were English/Irish/ Scots/ Welsh and whilst it is true that the majority of the men of the 24th were English, some 30%, sorry can't recall the exact number, were shown to be Welsh. The exact figures are on another thread on this forum.

In Zulu, yes, Baker was Welsh, so a Welsh spin is evident, just as an American spin is evident in the Enigma film. We alll know that that Enigma machine was captured by an English, pardon me, British warship not an American one but that doesnt mean that the Americans are plotting against England, any more than the Welsh are apparently plotting against the English in Zulu!
Come on Martin, let it go, or this thing will eat you alive and turn yo into a bitter old man. 'Tis just a FILM MArtin, a very good FILM! Never claimed to be a documentary!

Hey guys, you do not start with that ! :sleep:

Say that their fathers were Welsh and their mothers were English, as everybody will be happy ... :lol!:

Well said Pascal.

And agreed, Nuff said! :sleep:

But this may be the reverse if they are those who preferr ... :lol!:

Maybe another read of Julians post of Sat Dec 24th will show that I am not peddling a myth.

He also says that almost all born in Monmouth were of either English or Irish parentage.

He continues to say that the men considered themselves to be English.

He also states that Holme's figures are 'incredibly unreliable', so I wouldn't go by those figures.

Yes, that is the normal excuse to say that "it's only a film, not a documentary", but many people believe what they see on the silver screen to be real, and it has therefor given a totally false impression to the public by implying that this glorious action was fought by a Welsh regiment of mostly Welshmen, when in actual fact it was not, and is mostly fiction rather than fact.

I said earlier that it has introduced many people to the AZW, and that it will always be a classic, but it has also given the wrong impression to many people by mis-informing them and creating a total myth, it is therefor about time that it was remade, and get this myth well and truly busted.

I watch the film every time it is shown on TV, I do enjoy it, I like to spot the 'mistakes', but I will have to take more notice for the handler at the start of the film, I can't remember seeing that.

As you know, 2 people can see the same event and have completely different viewpoints on it, be they Rangers or Celtic fans, Kiwis or Aussies, Jews or Arabs etc etc. I fully understand Julian's post, but I do not concur with his assigning English nationality to men who enlisted in Monmouthshire. I will never be persuaded to accept or believe that Robert Jones VC, George Best (footballer) et al are English based on their ancestors' nationality! If we go back far enough, we find the English to be descended from Saxons, Normans, Scandinavians, Romans etc etc and that argument gets ever more ridiculous! Having served in the army alongside countless incredible people of all British nationalities (and many more from overeas) I had never before even thought about their nationality as being anything other than British, or anything of any relevance or importance to what was trying to be achieved, in trying circumstances at best.
You can put the blood of a Welshman into an Englishman, black or white skinned and vice-versa. How people are labelled by others or themselves, at the end of the day is pretty pointless really and the more we argue about this Martin, the more stupid, pointless and embarrassing it seems to become to me.
However, that being said, I would know better than to go up to a lad who I knew to have been born in Monmouthshire, and call him an Englishman!
I thought we had already agreed to disagree on this Martin. Best we can do I think!

It's not where you were born that decides what we are, it is the blood ... :lol!:

If an English born on Mars, this did not make him a Martian ...

tasker

I think you will find that it was Norman Holme who wrongly assigned the men enlisting or attesting in Monmouth as being Welsh, and that it was Julian who assigned men born in Monmouth as being English, as that is how things were back then, and I also think you will find that even Robert Jones VC himself said that he was English, as did most men born in Monmouth at that time. We have to respect how they saw themselves back then, not how we think they should be now.

Yes, I agree that the 24th was a regiment of the British Army, and therefor a British Regiment, my argument is why on earth did Baker and his gang go to such lengths to try to make people believe that the 24th was a Welsh regiment and therefor set it apart from being a British regiment, what was the hidden agenda behind that I wonder? Was it perhaps an attempt to try to alter history, or was it done for some other reason and to create this myth? Perhaps a remake would put an end to this myth (at long last).

I do know 'The Sound of Music' was based on a historical event, but I will lay 10 to 1 it didnt have a Julie Andrews figure.
The same with any so called istorical movie, look at 'The Alamo', all versions. Its history distorted into a story and thats what Cy Enfield and Stanley Baker did, made a damn fine film. Sure its part fiction, so what! It has still inspired more people to get involved in the AZW than any other single event.

Live with it...................

Regards

Hi all

One can also say that the music of Zulu and Zulu Dawn are pretty ...

Cheers

Pascal

Hi All,
Just my two pennorths worth

"it is too easy to criticise truly classic film, isn't it?
And a film
it is, not a documentary. This film, if it were a person, would have
been knighted by now for sevices to the appreciation of the Anglo-Zulu
war".

Tasker mate, I totally agree with the above. People should remember how this film first grabbed them and give them an insight in to this conflict. Without that classic film how many of us would be sitting here now debating the Zulu War. Would we have ever heard of Rorke's Drift?

As 90th said - it still puts the hairs on the back of my neck up, me too mate and everytime I watch it.

cheers
Richie

And the only reference/evidence we have to Robert Jones "saying" he was "English" is in the statement written down for him by an English Officer-class statement writer in his account of the defence of RD.
All the statements of the RD defender VCs (the illiterate, uneducated rank and file men like Jones) end with a wonderful, jingoistic, nationalistic fervour-inducing literary flourish, with words to the effect of "and we stood to fight and die like Englishmen."
I think it would be fair to say that Robert Jones was almost certainly not even in the room when that flourish was added to the end of his statement, or if he was, he would have obediently agreed to its inclusion. The style and eloquence of the final sentence is way out of kilter with the bulk of the statement, the bit that Robert Jones actually dictated. The officer who wrote it on the end of RJ's statement would not even have thought to write "Welshmen." Why would he? Even as late as the 1970s, the Encyclopaedia Britannica entry for Wales read: see England.

Hi all

There are more Welsh long time, there were too many racial mixtures, same for the English, there is more than the British :sleep:

Cheers

Pascal

Many of you seem to missing the point.

The heading of this topic is ZULU - SPOT THE MISTAKES, Not ZULU - CONDONE THE MISTAKES.

I have already said that the film is a classic, and that it got many people interested in the AZW, but why did Baker et al, distort history to such a degree? Why did he go to such lengths to con the public into believing that the 24th was a Welsh regiment and set it apart from being a British regiment? Why all the fictional Welshness, and fictional Welsh characters? They must have done some research to make the film, therefor they must have known that the 24th was not a Welsh regiment and that it was called the 2nd Warwickshire regiment at the time of the Zulu war, so why alter these historical facts and replace them by a load of fiction? Was it done because Baker was anti English and was trying to alter history and make people believe that the 24th was a Welsh regiment (with a few forigners from England in it)?

Many people believe that what they see and hear on the screen is fact, and many of these uninitiated folk still believe the myth that the 24th was a Welsh regiment, and therefor there are many websites that go on letting them believe that, some by advertising items as being 'Zulu war, Welsh regiment', or 'Zulu war, South Wales Borderers', or even 'Welsh Army' or 'Welsh Guards'.

There are many 'deliberate' mistakes and so much falseness in this film, that it should be remade, and this time make it historically correct, and cut out all the fictional rubbish.

Regarding Monmouth and the men from there at that time (1800's/1900's), I would suggest that a good read of Julians postings will clarify matters.

"The heading of this topic is ZULU - SPOT THE MISTAKES"

Quite. Baker's portrayal of the 24th Regiment as you have pointed out was a NOT a mistake, but his own artistic license and interpretation based on the fact that a good estimate would be that the 24th consisted of 25 - 30% Welshmen. He made the film and was perfectly entitled to do this. Why? Only Baker could answer that.
To ask if Baker was being anti-English is going a bit far Martin, so back off that line. You did not like it when Bill Cainan asked you if you were anti-Welsh, and to be fair, you certainly appear to come across as such.
I am also still awaiting your view on whether the Americans were being anti-British with Hollywood's interpretation of the capture of the Enigma machine from the German U-boat by an American ship in the film Enigma, when we all know that it was in fact, a British ship!

Hi All,

Pascall has a point. If the film companies are going to make a film about a well documented historical event they could do much better than they have done. Yes, it has to entertain, but not with theatrical nonsense, and subject matter that is clearly false.This insults those who know better.
"Star Wars" is there for non serious viewing and galactic experiences.


regards

barry