Latest topics | » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Today at 9:31 am by Julian Whybra » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySun Nov 17, 2024 11:25 pm by Julian Whybra » Lieutenant M.G. Wales, 1st Natal Native ContingentSat Nov 16, 2024 12:32 pm by Matthew Turl » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:55 pm by Julian Whybra » Royal Marine Light Infantry, ChathamThu Nov 14, 2024 7:57 pm by Petty Officer Tom » H.M.S. ForesterThu Nov 14, 2024 4:07 pm by johnex » Samuel PoppleWed Nov 13, 2024 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES » Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now availableSat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » Grave of Henry SpaldingThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves » John West at KambulaThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15 » Private Frederick Evans 2/24thSun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash » How to find medal entitlement CokerSun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T » Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra » William Jones CommentFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie » Brother of Lt YoungFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg » Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra » Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualtiesFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra » Absence of Vereker from Snook's BookFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra » Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock familyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan » No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas NewmanSat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash » Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's DriftFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan » Studies in the Zulu War volumesWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra » Martini Henry carbine IC1 markingsMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs » James Conner 1879 claspMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny » 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf » Frontier Light Horse uniformSun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier » Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24thSun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash » A Bullet BibleSat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra » Brothers SearsFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie » Zulu War Medal MHS TamarFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c » Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.Tue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai » Shipping - transport in the AZWSun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183 |
November 2024 | Mon | Tue | Wed | Thu | Fri | Sat | Sun |
---|
| | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | | Calendar |
|
Top posting users this month | |
New topics | » Dr. A. Ralph BusbySat Nov 16, 2024 11:36 am by Julian Whybra » Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:49 pm by John Young » Samuel PoppleTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES » Colonel Charles Knight PearsonFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH » John West at KambulaMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15 » How to find medal entitlement CokerFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T » Frederick Marsh - HMS TenedosThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg » Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home Mon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965 » Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies Sun Oct 27, 2024 11:32 am by SRB1965 |
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. |
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address.
Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.
If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.
We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes.
There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site.
The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum.
The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. |
Fair Use Notice | Fair use notice.
This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner.
We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes.
We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website.
If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution. |
|
| Chelmsford Choice | |
| | Author | Message |
---|
impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:25 am | |
| If we take into account the fact, that Lord Chelmsford did not fortify the camp at Isandlwana, should he have still divided his column when Dartnell asked for assistance, he could have taken the whole column,but would this have been to time consuming therefore putting Dartnell at risk.
The other question is was Dartnell's position fortified and could he have repelled a Zulu attack.
Last question. The Zulu King was not comfortable with his men attacking fortified positions was this lesson learnt years before at Blood River. |
| | | Jamie
Posts : 13 Join date : 2010-01-05 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 1:30 pm | |
| In respect to Dartnell and his overnight position it would have probably been possible to defend this position with regular infantry or colonial troops. You have to remember that morale and actual combat experience was very slim in the NNC that formed the sides of the square at the time. They were also tired, hungry and frightened. Link to picture below: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Therefore with the fighting men that actually held this elevated position at the time, in my opinion the cabability of the Zulu army would have destroyed any defensive position held by lightly armed troops. In regard to Chelmsford's thinking, after not engaging with the Zulu Army - where he thought it was - his next plan, late morning was to bring up the remaining troops from Isandlwana to Mangeni. Chelmsford chose to go light and attempt to engage the Zulu Army moving across his front 10 miles away by splitting the column. And as we know - the rest is history! Now whether Dartnell and the NNC were expendable.......... After all - they were on a strong probing mission with orders to return to camp that day. Regards, Jamie |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:56 pm | |
| Jamie. Thanks for the information and link. - Quote :
- After all - they were on a strong probing mission with orders to return to camp that day.
So whole column arrive at Isandlwana and Dartnell was sent off on a probing mission. Or did Dartnell commence his mission after they had cross at Rorkes Drift. Maybe a silly question but i'm a learner. |
| | | Jamie
Posts : 13 Join date : 2010-01-05 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:34 pm | |
| Chelmsford did have 'some' intelligence in respect to the direction the Zulu Army was heading to meet him. On arrival at Isandlwana he feared that the Zulu Army may well be able to use the terrain to the south to get behind him and make for the border or indeed seek a battle by cutting him off etc. This area is known as the Mangeni Valley - South of Isandlwana - and behind the hills that screened the south of Isandlwana Plain.
He ordered about 1700 men mainly NNC to do a reconnaissance role and sweep the hills to the South of the camp and return to Isandlwana before nightfall. The mission commenced the day after the column arrived at Isandlwana and 10 days oor so after crossing Rorkes Drift.
It was also a show of force to the local chiefs that intended to secure submission. |
| | | impi
Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:45 pm | |
| So Chelmsford dived his column into three. Not two. |
| | | old historian2
Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:01 pm | |
| So in theory if they had all got stuck in to fortifying Isandlwana on arrival, the remainder may have had some chance. 1700 men along with the rest of them would have made light work of the fortifying. I recall it being said somewhere that Chelmsford said it would have taken to long to laager. Surly a couple of hundred men or less could have man handled the waggons into position along with the help of the oxen. |
| | | Jamie
Posts : 13 Join date : 2010-01-05 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:16 pm | |
| To me, there is no question that Isandlwana could not be fortified. The base of the hill is too rocky and earthworks would have been a monster task to construct. A lot of digging. Chelmsford never intended to fortify Isandlwana as he proposed to move further East / South within a day or so of setting up camp at Isandlwana. He had to provoke a Zulu response soon so he did not stretch his supply lines too far and time was already against him due to road re-building between Rorkes Drift and Isandlwana - losing him 7-9 days.
Use of the wagons would have been the only way to strengthen or fortify a defense at the (temporary) camp site. Same old story in that he never once expected to be attacked so near the border!
Chelmsford split the column in 2 not 3. One half to Mangeni - the other to defend the camp at Isandlwana until he could probe the ground further East and South of the Isandlwana Plain. It is fair to say he 'overlooked' the North of the camp.......... |
| | | old historian2
Posts : 1093 Join date : 2009-01-14 Location : East London
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:29 pm | |
| Thanks Jamie very informative. - Quote :
- road re-building between Rorkes Drift and Isandlwana - losing him 7-9 days
Never knew about this. Was this down to the R.E |
| | | Jamie
Posts : 13 Join date : 2010-01-05 Location : UK
| Subject: Re: Chelmsford Choice Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:11 pm | |
| I should have been more specific. The track as it was known was in very bad condition between Rorkes Drift and Isandlwana with the heavy rains and the problem of not being able to support the volume of wagons and cattle required to use it to move Eastward.
Chelmsford did use 1/3rd NNC and imperial troops to attand to the track - for example Major Dunbar and his 2/24th company sent to repair a length of track directly below Sihayo's homestead in the Batshe valley. Valuable days were lost doing this due to boggy waterlogged ground and of course labour intensive back breaking work. |
| | | | Chelmsford Choice | |
|
Similar topics | |
|
| Permissions in this forum: | You cannot reply to topics in this forum
| |
| |
| |