Islandwana by Dr Greaves

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:56 pm

Hi Julian.

Quote :: available for viewing by the public.

Are copies available for purchasing.

Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17

Mr Whyrba
I am interested to hear your opinion. However I do wish the AZW community would get away from this sort of innuendo type behavior. Coud you perhaps tabulate or list the errors or inaccuracies that you fee Dr Greaves has made in his book. As an amateur I find it a little frustrating when published authors sagely nod their heads and mutter without making their thoughts or feelings about a work plain for all the rest of us. Dr Greaves has at least put his opinion down in print.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Littlehand,

I had to cancel my vist to the museum but they said they dont sell copys of the
papers but i think they may be able to copy a transcript.

When i go i will try and photo the order in question. Idea

Regards
DB14

Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17

We will but I would really value an experts tabulation of exactly what he disagrees with about another author.
I am asking out of ignorance.

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:54 am

Little Hand
Back copies are available through the Victorian Military Society.
Eric
I shall but not through the PM.

Guest

Julian, I meant to ask. A while ago on another site, you mentioned in a marathon Isandhlwana topic, that you had or were working on a paper/thesis, about the ratio I think of the number of the defenders and available firepower against the numbers of the attacking Zulu Army. It appeared to mean you could prove by this, that there was no way the camp could have been held, no matter what the commanders' actions or decisions. Did you complete this study ?

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Sat Oct 29, 2011 10:47 am

Colin
You have the wrong person I think. I do believe that no matter what the firepower and numbers, it was the disposition of the British troops which settled who would win at Isandhlwana.

Guest

Julian, there's a chance I've given the wrong description of the study you were doing, but it was definitely your good self, as it was in a discussion I myself was partaking in. It'd be ages to find it again, if ever, as there were so many debates about Durnford and Pulliene's roles, as well as troop movements. Thanks for replying though.

Guest

Julian, as an aside, I saw you were curious on the other Zulu War discussion forum (September 2011) about the mentioning of 2nd Corporal N. Mansfield, 7th Company, Royal Engineers, being at Durnford's side in his last stand. Apparently, there was a survivor's account stating that Durnford's orderly was seen standing beside him. Mansfield, I was informed, was Durnford's orderly, so therefore I concluded it was him.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Colin J,

I think this is that you are refering to.

'' Harry Davies caught his last glimpse of his commanding officer that day . Durnford was out near the firing line , an isolated and deeply forlorn figure , and ' his mounted orderly was standing before him with a drawn sword and the zulus all around.

Cheers
DB14

Guest

Thanks DB14, I think it was you who supplied this info on another topic for myself too. I should have remembered it to include the quote here. Rolling Eyes

Old age I put it down to and I've not even reached 50 yet !

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Sun Oct 30, 2011 10:18 am

Colin
Mansfield was Durnford's driver of his personal waggon and (presumably) batman NOT his orderly - a very different thing. Mansfield would certainly not have had a sword and he certainly would not have been mounted.

Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17

So what is the truth about the orders and what do they say?
I would be intrigued to know.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Eric they are intact and state

" You are to march to this camp at once with all force you have with you
of NO.2 Column.
Major Bengoughs battalion is to move to Rorkes Drift as ordered yesterday.
2nd/24th, artillery and mounted men with the General and Colonel Glyn
move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant."

No mention of Take Command
No mention of Reinforce

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Also what is the difrence between the book he wrote earlier
and the one that he has just brought out know???

Cheers
DB14

Guest

Julian, thanks for the details. As an (yet another) aside, in connection to Durnford. Now that Edmund Yorke has revealed the name of the new Col. Durnford biography and its author, to be released next year 2012, do you have any knowledge if said author of book, will release earlier details through the publisher, of the books contents, as in hardback/paperback, front cover illustration, number of pages, illustrations, etc., and information regarding a possible pre-order facility ? I can't express enough how much this is of interest to myself. I didn't wish to contact you by pm, as such info is of interest to us all. Thanks in advance.

Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17

So the orders in Dr Greaves book are correct then?
Just asking.
Also have to agree with CTSG about the other issue.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Sorry Eric i may have got a few words wrong in them but there are no parts missing and they do not state take command or reinforce.

Hopefully my copy will arrive in a few days so i can correct it then.

The order CTSG posted on the first page was the wrong one.

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17

Ok this is a dumb question but the order Dr Greave reproduced in his book from Lord C to Col D are accurate. SO that implies that Col D was within his rights by pursuing the left horn.
The orders from Pulline to Cavaye instruticng him to pull back into the camp are a fake.
Just checking.
Thanks

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Yes you are correct

Durnford was instructed to move to the camp, no mention of anything else.

In my opinon the order is a fake, 2 people getting the time wrong, and who would have taken the order??

Cheers
DB14

Guest

Eric, in order to make it look like or give the impression Durnford did disobey orders at Isandhlwana, his opponents keep referring to his reprimand by Chelmsford. However, this is just to distract readers away from the truth, in the fact he was obeying his orders as he understood, not abusing them to the point of deliberately wrongly interpreting them to suit his own purposes.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

It was quite interesting to read the debate still raging about who was to blame for the mess at Isandhlawana. Quantrill and Lock have it right, it was only the officer in command, one Chelmsford , aka Lord Augustus Thesiger an ex naval officer who bought his commission and was quite incapable of the task. If this moron had listened to Dartnell before the setting up of the camp the end result would have been different. Dartnell was rudely rebuffed when offering advise about camp defence and was passed a message, quote " tell that policeman I know what I am doing". In reality Dartnell was a military veteran of the Indian Mutiny, serving with my grandfather there, one Major James Giles in the 14th Hussars, under Major General Sir Hugh Rose.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Crealcok lied about the orders

Chelsmford went along with it.

Very cowardly but i geuss they needed someone to blame so they close Durnford.

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 116 Join date : 2011-06-17

I understand all the above. What I am seeking clarity on is the issue of whether or not the orders which Dr Grevaes has reproduced were fakes or so badly damaged that vital bits were missing. That seems to be what some poster are suggesting but not stating outright.
I was not aware of the order from Pullien to Cavaye that is something new for me but according to Mr Whybra that is a fake. How did that order fake or real affect our understanding of Islnadwana.

Posts : 63 Join date : 2010-12-06

Hi
Barry's comment above is right. Quantrill & Lock's books , also Ian Knight's are the more reliable accounts. I've found that Mr Greave's books are not exactly, what would you say,? I think you know what I mean!

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:26 pm

All three commanders made mistakes on the day. All three can be blamed to some extent. It's a question of degree. Ultimately, the main fault must lie with the Zulus - for winning!
For me Jackson's account remains the most unbiased, plainly told enabling the reader to make up his own mind, and thoroughly academic in its approach with proper footnotes. Each to his own of course. Naturally Ian Knight's and Lock & Quantrill's are valuable and have roles to play but Jackson's is just so simply put without being simplistic.

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:33 pm

Julian
I would tend to agree with your summary. Zulu Rising is to my mind a replacement for TWOTS in the huge overview it gives. HCMDB is a more fanciful book but gives a possible scenario and possible answers to a group of questions. If it has a fault it is probably Mike Snooks, 'brook no arguement aproach'.
Lock and Quantrill provoke thought, I love the different doors they enjoy wandering through.
Without doubt Jacksons is the most accurate, Ive just taken delivery of the 'Sources revisited' and look forward to reading it

Regards

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:07 pm

Eric
Your postings seem to suggest that you find it hard to choose between different opinions. Let me try to guide you in terms of anything factual that is stated. Always look at the footnotes to see if the source (a primary source, not secondary) is stated and assess its reliability. A professional historian will always source his remarks and is the more reliable for it. Popular histories just don't do it as publishers assume that footnotes are a turn-off for the casual reader.

Subject: Isandlwana by Greaves. Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:03 am

Hi Springbok.
I have '' Both '' of the Jackson books and they have plenty of footnotes . Footnotes are important as it
tells you where the source originated . I purchased '' Hill Of The Sphinx '' and '' Sources Revisited ''
from the Royal Regt Of Wales online shop . Here is the link . Very good price for these books .

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cheers 90th.

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:07 am

90th
Brilliant book. The footnotes and source notes are probably the best Ive seen. Some really fascinating insights. I re read it again last night.
By the way I paid 20GBP for both from RRW shop.

Regards

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The image that CTSG posted on page 1

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This order is from Major Spalding to Colonel Durnford

It is in no way anything to do with his last order from Crealock

Cheers
DB14

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:59 pm

How do you know, its from Spalding to Dunrford DB14.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Littlehand

The numbers add up with what is in Greaves book Idea

Cheers
DB14

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Hear is what the above order says ( source Adreain Greaves )

Lieut. Colonel Durnford R.E
Camp Helpmakaar
1.You are requested to move the troops under your immediate command viz.: mounted men, rocket battery and Sakeli’s men to Rourke’s Drift tomorrow the 20th inst,; and to encamp on the left bank of the buffalo (In Zululand. )

2.No.3 Column moves to the Isandhlana Hill.

3.Major Bengough with his battalion of Native Contingent at Sandpruit is to hold himself in readiness to cross the Buffalo at the shortest possible notice to operate against Chief Matyana. His wagons will cross at Rourke’s Drift.

4.Information is requested as to the ford where the above battalion can best cross, as to co-operate with No.3 Column in clearing the country occupied by chief Matyana.

By order, H Spalding. Major DAAG[/i]
Camp Rourke’s Drift 19.1.79[/i]

Subject: Re: Islandwana by Dr Greaves Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:40 pm

I believe in freedom of speech, but as the Administrator I have to make decisions to preserve the integrity of this forum. I now firmly believe that some members are using this forum, to carry out personal attacks on certain individuals and there work in a public domain. Some members may feel my decision is wrong in that I will be deleting the last two posts and locking down this particular thread.

May I suggest to those members who have issues regarding work by other Authors-Historians deal with them off the forum. Idea

» Captain Greaves Isandula Survivor.
» What do we know about the lives of the Zulu War Authors ?
» Publications by Dr Adrian Greaves.