Is there were suicides at Isandhlwana?

good evening

Given the horror of Isandhlwana, I always wondered if there were cases of suicides were on the battlefield as among the American soldiers to the same period when they were fighting the Indians.

With despair, it is possible, see how eventually some defenders of Rorke's Drift, sinking into despair to suicide.

So despairing British soldiers may well have committed suicide to avoid being killed by spears.

There is evidence of it?

Cheers

Pascal

There is no evidence what so ever of anyone doing this at Isandlwana.

There is no Zulu report of this either

They died in action bravely fighting the Enemy


Cheers

Bonsoir

British soldiers is no risk of torture, it is possible that there have not suicide, but the British soldiers are human, so maybe that was hidden ... Bizarre, weird ...

Cheers

Pascal

No


You trying turning a Marti on yourself with a fixed bayonet, it can't be done quickly, it wouldn't have entered their heads.


This topic can go no-where, its pointless


Cheers

There was one witnessed at Hlobane.

Hi All .
Never heard of any suicides at Isandlwana , Trpr George Mossop in his book mentions a friend of his shooting
himself while beside him at Hlobane but doesnt name him for the man's families sake .
cheers 90th.

Hi all

Hi all

In conclusion, there certainly were some suicides or even after the defeats, it is human and not surprising, but they were hidden ...

Those who disagree do not know the human soul ...

And no topic is useless on the Zulu War ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal you make a habit of posting supersition and innuendo as fact.
The speculation on suicides is trite and without foundation, it is therefore pure speculation based on your own thoughts rather than a reasoned assumption based on fact.
If I am wrong I would be happy to acknowledge being so.

Bonjour Monsieur

I think what I want and say what I want, this is called freedom.

Also agreed ideas make me a good laugh and I like kicking his feet in the anthill.

But for that, do not have a stiff spirit and it takes a lot of imagination ...ok ?

Cheers

Pascal

nuff said

nuff said,

you said and that's all you know that my poor old...

Cheers

Pascal

Hi All,

Indeed, there were many suicides, not necessarily, only, or, at Isandlwana . I am however too far away from my records to tell you exactly where they occurred to go any into detail at the moment.

Of course a MH would be useless for one " taking own life", but dont forget that they WERE also armed with pistols.

Sadly, I see another attempt by a member in this thread , in his ignorance, trying to close down discussion on a subject, perhaps because the findings, or real facts may be unpleasant. Allowing one member to have his way on such a matters is not democratic and is not conducive to real fact finding or healthy debate.


regards


barry

Hi Barry

It's me who was right!

Unless you are obtuse, it is logical to imagine that there are terrorized young soldierswho had committed suicide ...

They were also human beings ...

But to admit ideas off conventions, you must get up a good time ...

Although some would understand that Veritee of war is disgusting and should not see the Zulu war as something romantic,

Although Veritee do not like, you have to say ...

The war for real, this is not hollywood ...

Cheers

Pascal

In my opinion, it is most unlikely that suicides were a part of iSandlwana. Here are a few reasons:

1. The men of the central column were at the very beginning of the invasion - they would have been in high spirits, highly optimistic and up for some action. NO one expected iSandlwana to happen, so there was no reason why suicide would have been on anyone's minds.

2. Suicide requires aforethought and planning. Whilst soldiers have certainly been known to possess a "last resort" plan and whilst it is common knowledge that such plans have even been carried out, suicide is not usually a thing which anyone carries out on the spur of a moment.

3. It requires contemplation. Individuals, groups or pairs of mates have been known to make pacts. This however, is a last resort scenario in the face of being over run by a brutal, merciless and cruel foe - say just like iSandlwana - but in January 1879 - no one had any reason to contemplate this scenario.

4. Hlobane - yes. Suicide here may well have been contemplated. Over 2 months post-iSandlwana, the stories both true, false and exaggerated, of the horrible fate that befell the poor men at iSandlwana would have pervaded the whole army. They would now know what a mighty, serious, cruel, merciless and ruthless foe they were facing. The men of the army would have discussed the fate of those at iSandlwana long into the dark nights. They may well have planned what they would do if they found themselves in the same situation.

5. At iSandlwana, everyone was caught metaphorically, with their pants down. Psscal, how do men react in this situation? In my (thankfully infrequent) experience, when soldiers are caught up unexpectedly in any drama, be it an ambush, a battle, or any action, they fight like wounded guard dogs in a corner, to the death if necessary. Just like they are reported to have done at RD and almost certainly did at iSandlwana.

6. In an unexpected, spontaneous action, aggression and adrenalin takes over. Suicide is the LAST thing on anyone's mind. (Isandlwana, RD).
7. In a deliberate assault, or planned action, against an enemy who is known to be unlikely to respect the Geneva Convention and the possibility of capture is not unlikley, then yes, suicide - the last bullet scenario - will be considered by a small minority. (iSandlwana was not one of these. All subsequent actions were).

Barry
I really do hope you werent calling me ignorant? Wrong for the time of year mate.

Tasker
Good reasoning.

I look forward to seeing the proof and sources for documented cases of suicide.

Regards

Hi Springbok9,

In reply to your question; to the contrary, no I was not.

regards,

barry


.

Tasker 224

To commit suicide, no need for planning ...

Just a little soul, a young soldier for example, one can away from the carnage of Isandhlwana for some instand, who is shocked by the sight of the action of spears and it's good, "the fear of the white arms ".

But obviously, the Covention on the war forbid to speak ...

There are even those who have pretended to be dead on the field of carnage, not knowing that the Zulus would rip the ...

But obviously, the Covention on the war forbid to speak ...

And I bet that when the soldiers learned they were going to invade Zululand, right now, rumors on the Zulu have duent walk through the ranks of British soldiers, and the youngest duent be impressed by the rumors , unfounded.

Older soldiers like to to frighten the younger, I know, I loved doing this ...

There is no shame in that, but it's just that we always talk about how unrealistic this war, forgetting the things that shocked (as the wounded Zulu buried alive or hanged in R D..

But obviously, the Covention on the war forbid to speak ...you know?

Cheers

Pascal

[quote="springbok9"]Tasker
Good reasoning.

I look forward to seeing the proof and sources for documented cases of suicide.

Hi all,
Springbok said: suicides at Isandlwana is speculation, not based on fact.
Sorry, but he is right.
I am also be happy to know primary sources on the subject.

Regards

[quote="ymob"]

springbok9 wrote:

Tasker
Good reasoning.

I look forward to seeing the proof and sources for documented cases of suicide.

Hi all,
Springbok said: suicides at Isandlwana is speculation, not based on fact.
Sorry, but he is right.
I am also be happy to know primary sources on the subject.

Regards

True. I am not as well read as most on this forum, but I have never heard of, or read any stories or reports by Zulus or any other witnesses, of men topping themselves at iSandlwana.
I am sure that if this had been seen by any participant, the stories would have been out there.

Hi

In a battle instantly or reign of terror, it would not be irrational behavior, AND DO NOT FORGET the emotional shock, in addition, for the mentalitée and false propaganda, these facts have duent be suppressed when they were known, this self-evident ...

For example after each US military defeats in front of the Plains Indians, it was out of the question to say that there were many suicides on the battlefield ...

Otherwise you imagine the effect!

Cheers

Pascal

What i was trying to say is their is no evidence of a suicide

It wouldn't have crossed their minds

Better to go down fighting


Cheers

The only report of a suicide at isandlwana was in a letter home from a 'Suvivor", proved not to have been there, Possibly Thomas Thomas, but I could be wrong, who reported Henry Pullein shooting himself. Not based on any kind of fact.

Any other suggestion is purely speculation. Its just because we will never know, that this kind of speculation can be made.

Personaly I regard it as a tad insulting to the 24th Regiment of Foot. But thats a personal opinion.

Its New Year in New Zealand, Australia and its heading for RSA. Enjoy your celebrations everyone, Im baby sitting the grand kids. See you all next year.

Regards

Hi

good evening

Written by springbok9

"I personaly have it look a tad insulting to the 24th Regiment of Foot. Purpose thats a personal opinion."

I insult anyone ...

The Soldiers of the 24 th, were not saints, when we know what we're doing a Rorke's Drift, when the brave soldiers of the 24 th arriving with Chelmsford...

injured zulu were buried alive and others Zulu were hanged .

They were just soldiers, some want to pose as supermen ...

Cheers

Pascal

Hi Pascal. I am always up for a good conspiracy theory, but in the case of iSandlwana in particular, I do not think the conditions were right for suicide to have been part of the story. See my first post above.
I am not an expert on the AZW, or a psychologist or psychiatrist, but I do have some experince in counselling, soldiering and suicide cases. The circumstances of the battle of iSandlwana in my opinion, would not have been one where suicide would have been on the mind of anyone present.

We will never know the Veritee,
but there are some that are completely off the plate in relation to what we have felt the soldiers massacred at Isandhlwana
this self-evident,
even my toy soldiers could also behave impeccably that describe some of the conduct of the 24 th ...
And like, I'll be nice, I just remembered reading something else crunchy, it very long, but where?
We have found more bodies of soldiers of 24 th out of the camps and inside ...
On hearing that it was a massacre of fleeing ...
I have invented nothing, there must be people who wanted to destroy the mass of myth about the war ...

Cheers

Pascal

tasker224 wrote:

The circumstances of the battle of iSandlwana in my opinion, would not have been one where suicide would have been on the mind of anyone present.

I agree with this - I think that the British were well disciplined and would have been too busy fighting to think about anything else. Also at this point in time they thought that the war would be won quickly - it's not like they knew of the disembowelment...

The American Indians were known for scalping and I think that is the reason some took their own lives.

Accordin to the Zulus they fourght back to back with the Bayonet, Rifle, Pocket knife, tent peg, and thier fists.

I don't think suicide would have entered their mind.

The men on the trial out side th camp where trying to escape, they wouldn't have stopped.




Cheers

Drummer Boy 14 wrote:

Accordin to the Zulus they fourght back to back with the Bayonet, Rifle, Pocket knife, tent peg, and thier fists.

Tent pegs? I heard someone used a hammer - but not a peg? :lol!:

According to Mitford they threw rocks and punched the Zulus in the face



Cheers
DB14

It is true that if there was a suicide,

There's very little there be.

For the Zulus are not Pathan or Plains Indians.

But anyway we will never know the Veritee.

There were too many false propaganda after Isandhlwana by officials at the time, to mitigate the disaster ...

In any case, this does not detract from the magnificence of 1 / 24 th foot as a unit member.

Also because of this, I think Isandhlwana is crying.

If Chelmsford was left with the 1 / 24 Foot and is the 2 / 24 foot would have been killed, it would have less embarrassed because it was not a great battalion of veterans.

Admit that if Pulleine committed suicide, as some suspect, this would be great in terms of the short epic 24 th Foot in Zululand.

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal MAHE wrote:

It is true that if there was a suicide,

Admit that if Pulleine committed suicide, as some suspect, this would be great in terms of the short epic 24 th Foot in Zululand.

What

Who thinks Pulliene killed himself.

He would have been commanding the battle till he was shot, BY A ZULU.

It was not me who is suspected of having done this Pulleine (see this earlier in this topic) but if it did, it's great!

Pascal MAHE wrote:

but if it did, it's great!

What

Are you saying its great to comit that

If I recall correctly, Julian Whybra proved that the soldier who wrote that letter wasn't even at Isandlwana. He was with Chelmsford column. Perhaps Julian can confirm. If there were suicides at Isandlwana it would be impossible to prove, there are no witness accounts. Any thoughts on this would be strictly on a personal level. And I do believe this subject as been post before.

About the letter

Secondly, Littlehand quotes from 2/24th Pte. Thomas Thomas's letter with a view to citing it as evidence to support a particular view:
From the ambiguity of the letter's content it could be interpreted that Thomas participated in the battle of Isandhlwana and the letter has even appeared in books by at least two historians as a letter from a bona fide survivor. In reality, Thomas was out with his battalion as a member of Chelmsford’s reconnaissance on the 22nd January. Thomas is either deliberately not telling the truth or, to be generous, his writing in the first person plural has been taken literally when what he actually intended to convey was the third person plural. Thomas was NOT at Isandhlwana and he has as much idea of what happened there as the next man.

Posted By Julian In the topic "Durnford was he capable"


Cheers

Thanks DB14. I'm not saying there wasn't any suicides during the Battle. But it will be impossible to prove either way.

Hi ALL

DB had written 14

"What"

"Are you Saying its great to Comit That"

Answer:

It would have been, to his credit, he would have to postéritée, a victim of Chelmsford and the short saga of the 24 th Foot, I get into the sublime ...

Little hand had written

"If I recall Correctly, Julian Whybra Proved That soldier who wrote the letter That Was not Even at Isandlwana. He Was with Chelmsford column. Perhaps Julian Can confirm. If There Were suicides at Isandlwana it Would Be unable to prove, There are no witness accounts. Any Thoughts on this Would Be Strictly personal level it was. And I do Believe this subject have-been post before. "

ANSWER:

Historians are nice, but with each new discovery, he is forced to change their opinions ...

Little hand had written

"I'm Not Saying There Was not Any suicide DURING the Battle. But It Will Be unable to PROVE Either Way."

ANSWER:

Perfect answer, you understood everything.

Cheers

Pascal

In any case, we now know that Durnford does' not commit suicide and I even think that there were suicides, only after the battle of Isandhlwana and because of the massaces during the Battle of Isandhlwana...

Virtually everyone agrees, it's good !

Who's everyone?

Who said nothing consents:D 

Pascal. your talking in riddles again  

Among the Bretons, that means that the one who does not give his opinion is in agreement  

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Virtually everyone agrees, it's good !

But that's not the case?

We say that if !