A strong a presentiment of coming evil...

HI all

Good as this position might have been against European troops,compelled by the nature of the ground to operate from the open in front,it afforded no protection whatever against zulus,accustomed from
childhood to bound from crag to crag and to charge up hill with a agility surprising the Europeans and to whom,therefore,the rocky broken ground on the flanks was no more serious obstacle than a ploughed field to our soldiers at home.

This opinion was shared the 21 st January 1879 at Isandhlwana by officers of the 24 th Foot and others.

A field-officer of the 2nd battalion of the 24 th Foot ,being on duty with the picquets on 21 st January,expressed his strong misgivings to the staff-officer whose duty it was to point out the ground to be occupied,and remarked that the broken ground was no protection,and that there was not even a pisquet in rear.

"Well,sir," was the answer ,"if you are nervous ,we will put a picquet of the pioneers there"

The same day the late Lieutenant and Adjudant Melvill,1st battalion 24 th Foot remarked to th field -officer above mentioned,who was looking out to the font:
"I know what you are thinking of by your face ,sir; you abusing this camp,and you are quite right !Theses zulus willcharge home,and with our small numbers we ought to be in laager,or ,at any rate ,be prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder."

This picquet was posted on the road leading over the ne,but is believed to have withdrawn before morning and not replaced,as when the 2 nd battalion 24 th Foot marched out of camp on the 22 nd allthe native pioneers were taken to make the track passable for the gun.

It should be said that the staff -officer referred to was himself not satisfied with the position;he spoke in its favour only from a sense of his official position,and afterwards said that never in all his life had he experienced so strong a presentiment of coming evil as on that day and the following morning (22 nd January )when he left the camp for the front.

1/ Who was the field-officer of the 2nd battalion of the 24 th Foot, Being on duty with the picquet on January 21 st ?

2/ Who was the staff-officer Whose duty to point out it WAS the ground to Be Occupied ?

Cheers

Pascal

Hi
For your information I read that on page 230 in a book I received last year, entitled:
"Historical Records of the 24 th Regiment, from Its Formation, in 1689" by George Paton, Farquhar Glennie.

The conclusion is that the 21st of January 1879, officers from the 24 th Foot, including Melvill, felt that the position of Isandhlwana was very bad for a camp.

Cheers

Pascal

According to Hamiton Browne, quite a few officers showed there displeasure regarding the camp at Isandlwana. The problem was it was mostly discussed between themselves instead of bringing it to the attenion of Chelmsford. Perhaps if they had spoken as one standing united they may have got their point across.

Hello Dave

First, Happy New Year to you and yours and above all good health ...

It's always the same in all armies in the world, Chelmsford was the boss ...

But the only responsible for defeats as victories, is the C-in-C ...

It took me to read this wonderful book that told me this forum to learn this, as what this forum is useful for me ...

They were not all stupid in the army of Chelmsford, but all was disciplined, there even who had a tactical sense, if they realized the wrong location for the camp!

But who chose the wrong location?

And if Cavaye warned Pulleine of the Zulu movements in the northwest of the camp, there was no reaction ...

I had not thought about that, but Mount Isandhlwana hides Zulu movement, and only an officer of 2 / 24 th, it is frightening ...

We could not prevent the right horn lead to the battlefield ?

It's amazing, no battle will bring together so many imponderables ...

That's why it is so interesting ...

Cheers

Pascal

In fact the Adjutant Melvill already had a bad presentiment, there were others like him?

Yes that seems to have been the case, mutterings around the camp fires. But not brought to the attention of LC. Even when he announced he was going to spit the force.

In my opinion, junior officers were not as dismissive of the Zulu as LC, this is rarely emphasized, Still we imagine that everyone in the camp felt like LC ...

I'm curious to know what was the state of mind of simple poor soldiers, in my opinion it was not joy ... Given the reputation of the Zulu ...

Glyn could have said something. He wasn't happy with the situation, according to Browne.

He Was not happy with the situation, alas, it was not the kind of guy to open his mouth! Ok in all the armies, it's the same! We can see how LC treated Durnford ... Well once LC left , Pulleine did not take many initiatives...

Pascal MAHE wrote:

I'm curious to know what was the state of mind of simple poor soldiers, in my opinion it was not joy ... Given the reputation of the Zulu ...

 
Pascal,
 
I am not sure for the "private" of the 24th...
Don't forget the easy victory in the 9th caffir's war...
-Read soldier's letters before Isandlwana's battle / Frank Emery "the red soldier" or "letter's from africa"
-Read ESSEX 's testimony (during the battle of isandlwana: soldiers chatting...).
 
Regard.
 
Frédéric

Easy victory in the 9th caffir's war.?

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Easy victory in the 9th caffir's war.?

The war in 1877-1878 isn't the 9th kaffir war?

Cheer

Frédéric

Yes Fred&eric but it was not won easily!

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Yes Fred&eric but it was not won easily!

 
Mon ami,
Battle of centane with UPCHER, ATKINSON and others, how many KIA and wounded in the bristish force????  
In reality, no problem for me with that ("but it was not won easily)!!!  
 
Regard.
 
Pascal

Mon ami

This war lasted too long to be meant as a simple military promenade, and the Battle of Centane is not characteristic of the Xhosa tactics, thank you god for them !

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal MAHE wrote:

Mon ami

This war lasted too long to be meant as a simple military promenade, and the Battle of Centane is not characteristic of the Xhosa tactics, Cheers

Pascal

 
Exact.
But for me, this compaign is not the "Zulu campaign" or the "Transvaal campaign"...
It seems to me that CLERY (from memory) had said about this campaign ("a promenade").
The word "easy" is certainly inappropriate, only a "facility of langage" for me.
That's all!!!

Yes mon ami ,after Clery ,a promenade ,a pedestrian walkway because the British never did do shake by the Xhosa, like by the Zulu and the Boers ...

Cheers

PTR

I'm a "master" in "Frenchglish" and in "Brechglish" (should read between the line to understand these new languages LOL - LOL - LOL ) and you're my best pupil LOL -LOL -LOL

Gentlemen,

In the polite society I which I mix we refer to the war fought against the amaXhosa as the 9th Cape Frontier War.

'Jimu

kwajimu1879 wrote:

Gentlemen,

In the polite society I which I mix we refer to the war fought against the amaXhosa as the 9th Cape Frontier War.

'Jimu

Monsieur,
I suppose "Kaffir war" is not "politiquement correct" today.
No offense from me (mon ami Pascal doesn't use these words, it's me).
I have learnt "these words " after i have read ENGLISH books on the wars in africa.

Frédéric

Mes chers amis Fred&ric and Jimmy

For common, it is simply the Cap wars ...

Cheers Pascal

Frédéric,

You are right it is not politically correct, due to the negative connotations the word used to have.

Pascal,

Quote :

For common, it is simply the Cap wars

Close, but no cigar.  Try CAPE.

'Jimu

Thank you,Jimoux , but if you have fun you correct my mistakes in English spelling, you have not finished, my dear friend  ...

Néanmoins, I appreciate this may be down useful  

Cheers

Pascal

Clery,Melvill,Dunbar.
cheers xhosa2000

They then had a strong A presentiment of coming evil ...

First post n this topic.

"Well,sir, was the answer ,"if you are nervous ,we will put a picquet of the pioneers there"

Said by Crealock!m

Yeah, ultimately, many do not despise the Zulus as LC, it seems that there were many who had a strong presentiment of coming evil ...

This raises the levels, some tend to believe that the poor guy of Isandhlwana were overconfident ...

Alas this was the case Pulleine that any ways, wa too obedient ...

Not one of his subordinates has tried to alarm him ?

Cheers

Pascal

kwajimu1879 has said:
Frédéric,
 
You are right it is not politically correct, due to the negative connotations the word used to have[/color].
 
Monsieur,
 
From a well known and respectable historian on another site:
 
"I think it would be useful to state that use of words in history books (according to the rules of the Univ. of London governing theses) such as kraal, kaffir, even mild terms like native are acceptable in their historical context. In some cases it is no longer pc or desirable to use nigger and kaffir, in others, like kraal, it is just good form, and with words like chief, it is bordering on the pedantic.  (...) - the important thing to do is once one is used to stick to it and not confuse the reader. As far as I'm aware London's rules are the same or very similar to all other UK universities and institutions". 
 
I know that my post is not really a "history book" !!!! but  .... 
As we say in France: "sans rancoeur"! 
 
Cordialement.
 
Frédéric

Indigenous is the best term, as white can beings native of South Africa in this time...

Pascal,

By indigenous do you mean like the Khoi and the San people?

Or are you including those who came down from further North?

Just asking.

John Y.

John Young wrote:

Pascal,

By indigenous do you mean like the Khoi and the San people?

Or are you including those who came down from further North?

Just asking.

John Y.

 
Bonjour Pascal,
Be careful, mon ami! "terrain miné"! ("mined ground"!) if you answer in English language!!! 
You can't answer in French, someone said to me that Mister John Young doesn't understand the French language... 
Maybe in "Frenglish"?? 
 
Courage.: 
Bien à toi
 
Frédéric

Frédéric,

Vous êtes tout à fait correct, je ne parle pas français et certainement pas Breton!

But I see that Pascal has now resorted to a well-known Anglo-Saxon word despite his Celtic roots!

John Y.

Hi or Hello Frederic

I'm not afraid of minefields ...

John, a indigenous is a person who is not of Caucasian type and that those who were of Caucasian type go to his country to exploit him and his country of all imaginable ways ...

Cheers

Admin wrote:

Can't see where this is going, except off topic? Can we get back on the rails  

Bonsoir Admin,
My post was really just an innocent joke.
Sorry for that.
Mister John Young is a serious researcher and I am very happy to learn with him.
His arrival on this forum is a good new for all the members. 

Cheers.

Frédéric BOMY ("Ymob")

It does not matter, the majority of subjects are elastic and it makes sense ...

Hi all

Too bad Melvill is not instead of LC the 21 January 1879 or Pulleine the 22 January 1879...

Cheers

Pascal

Well, John, I at least appreciated your little 'indigenous' barb. But, irony aside, it's a very good point to make when people start talking about 'native' rights, indigenous, being pc, and European exploitation. 'Exploitation' worked both ways in SA and (dare I say it) still does.

i'm still getting my head around
that hateful expression [u]pc
what a ghastly concept! which
if followed to its logical con-
clusion would mean a world where
we are all forced to think and say
the same. i'm thoroughly on trend
re race,religion, and human rights,
but a good proportion of it is ad
hoc rubbish which gets right up my
nose. or is that just me?. xhosa

No it's not just you. It gets up my nose too. These days when writing about the colonial period there are definite dos and don'ts as to when you can use the word 'native' either as a noun or as an adjective and, used to it as I am, I invariably manage to get it wrong. I'm a child of my time I'm afraid and being brought up with a word it's difficult to wrench it out of my vernacular usage.

John Young wrote:

Pascal,

By indigenous do you mean like the Khoi and the San people?

Or are you including those who came down from further North?

Just asking.

John Y.

John, scientifically speaking, "indigenous" or "native" refer to any sort flora or fauna population that exists in a habitat, naturally. (Arriving in that place on its own two feet, by the wind or any other natural means of locomotion or transportation - not on aeroplanes, ships or any other human-made method of transportation).

IMO or to any other scientist, the words "native" or "indigenous" should not be construed as racist or offensive if used in their correct sense.
Clearly, using words such as native, girl, gay, woman, black, gay, in their correct sense is not offensive. If however they are included as part of an insult, or are said or written with the intention to hurt or to be derogatory, then yes - it is offensive.
Almost any word can be used in an offensive fashion.

Kopie that's true but there are occasions when you might speak about 'natives' in an historical setting, and the university would get very sniffy and prefer you to use 'Africans'. In general that is now the case with the exceptions of historical usages as in Natal Native Horse or in quotations.

Julian, if I were about to speak to an audience in similar circumstances, I would probably qualify that I was about to use words such as "native" , "kaffir" at the outset of the talk and inform the audience that the words are being used in an "historical sense" as used by Chard, Chelmsford, Robert Jones VC etc etc and it was contemporary language, and make it very clear that even if these terms had racist undertones at the time, this is not your intention today.
That would, or should, clarify the usage. Sorry, but if people are going to read primary source documents from the late 1870s, then they better be prepared to see and to read these words!
If anyone wanted to get sniffy after that, then perhaps political correctness is going to far, or historical context is not fully understood!

I agree. That is what I have to do though it annoys me, becasue I would hope my audience would be intelligent enough to know all that.

kopie wrote:

Julian, if I were about to speak to an audience in similar circumstances, I would probably qualify that I was about to use words such as "native" , "kaffir" at the outset of the talk

From what I have experienced, you should not use that last quoted term in ANY context even though it was used historically.

Julian - never assume your audience is intelligent!
Remember, the most widely read newspaper in the UK is The Sun and further to that, the majority of its readers think it is a newspaper and believe what it says.
I agree 6pdr. Kaffir was a racist term in 1879, just as it is today.
I would only use it if quoting directly, word for word, what an historical figure has said. But again, i would suggest warning the audience that these terms are going to be heard, in that context.

Kopie, you say that perhaps PC is going too far, it's not going too far, I'm afraid it has already done that.

I, like many of my generation, sometimes find it all rather hard to adjust to modern ways of thinking, we cannot help the age we were born into or how we were brought up. We sometimes make remarks that are not intended to offend anyone, however, it appears that there is always some character from the (dare I use the expression 'PC Brigade'), who always seems ready to jump down your throat and more or less accuse you of doing or saying something wrong. These sort of people can cause more trouble than is needed, they are what my generation would call 'a pain the neck', (or words similar).

Making a public address or being an author these days, must become a very difficult task when trying to choose the correct wording, because these sort of people are always ready to find fault with anything you have said or written. Many of them are just 'jobsworths' that have nothing else better to do than try to cause trouble, it's a case of PC gone mad.

There is, of course, the other phenomenon known as Grumpy Old Man Syndrome, of which I count myself an honoured sufferer. Fact is, most people are still sensible about language, but those that are not, are very noisy about it. Its amazing the ease with which things get right up my nose these days !