Liars in the Zulu War?

Guest

Hi all

Anyone know it extraordinary stories of types having tried to make believe they were this or that battle of the zulu war, while it was wrong?

It shows in every conflict ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:40 pm

I believe there were a few who claimed to have been at the Battle of Isandlwana, when infact they were with Chelmsford’s column.

Subject: Liars in the zulu war Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:24 pm

Hi Pascal .
Julian mentions this in his book Englands Son's .
cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:32 pm

I think Juilan can confirm Thomas Thomas wasn't at Isandlwana. There is also a grave on the forum of someone who claimed to have been at RD during the Battle. Even having the inscription put on to his head stone.

This extract from the Welsh Soldiers in the Zulu War

Letter from No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt.

We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition.

Thomas' statement that 'the colonel in command shot himself ' (referring probably to Durnford but possibly to Pulleine) is hard to credit; at the same time it is difficult to understand why he should have made such a statement had he not believed that such was the case.

Guest

Hello all

It was prévisible.Les guy pretending to be veterans for glory ...

They had problems ... I hope

For example, for the Normandy landings, there was in France a few years ago a fake American paratrooper ...

Cheers

Pascal

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

[quote="Pascal MAHE"]Hello all

HI Pascal
Lt YOUNG (NNC). He claimed to have been at Isandlwana during the battle.
He was not at Isandlwana (Higginson's letter to a newspaper)
His brother died at isandlwana.

See "Zulu Rising" and "Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift" (the "silver book") / Ian KNIGHT

I think there is a post on this story on this forum.

Regard

Guest

Merci Monsieur.

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Pascal MAHE wrote:: Merci Monsieur.

[quote]

Hi Pascal,

Je vous en prie!

I received by post at midday Julian WHYBRA book's "England's Sons".
There is an entitled chapter "Frauds, Erroneous, Inclusions, Mispellings and Conundra".
He tells the story of Lt H.C. YOUNG 3rd NNC.
(England's Sons : " a casualty and survivor's roll of british combatabts for the battle of isandlwana and the defense of Rorke's Drift" is for me an essentiel book as "the Noble 24th" of Norman HOLME on these two battles).

Regards

YMOB

Guest

Oui Monsieur , j'ai ce bouquin là,mais ce n'est pas pour ce genre de choses...

Posts : 2268 Join date : 2010-10-22 Location : France

Pascal MAHE wrote:: Oui Monsieur , j'ai ce bouquin là,mais ce n'est pas pour ce genre de choses...

Pascal,

Désolé si je n'ai pas compris le sens de ton interrogation initiale!

L'objet de ta question concerne bien des personnes qui ont prétendu être présentes à une bataille durant la guerre des zoulous?
Dans l'affirmative, le livre de Julian WHYBRA donne des indications même si ce n'est pas le sujet principal de son livre.
C'est ainsi que j'ai pu noter que le témoignage frauduleux du Lt H.C YOUNG était parfois cité comme "source d'information" par les membres de forums "AZW" sur la fuite de COGHILL et de MELVILL du champs de bataille d'Isandlwana.
Or, H.C YOUNG n'était pas présent à Isandlwana le 22/01/1879.
Si tu as le livre de Julian WHYBRA, tu dois savoir qu'"England' sons" contient également un chapitre intitulé "Fraudulen zulu accounts"( ex: zabange).

Bien cordialement

Frédéric

Subject: Liars in the Zulu war? Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:38 pm

Hi all

Well, the topic says 'Liars in the Zulu war?'.

I would have thought that two of the biggest Liars would be Crealock and Chelmsford.

Posts : 3387 Join date : 2009-03-03 Location : Devon

Hi All

If you look at the DID THEY OR DIDN'T THEY TAKE PART IN THE ZULU WAR Section on this forum, you will find many claims to have taken part in the Zulu War.

Subject: Liars in the zulu war Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:45 pm

Hi All.
There is talk that ' Grandier ' lied about being a prisoner of the Zulu . He said he was captured at or near Hlobane , I know this has been discussed previously , but interesting I suppose nonetheless .
cheers 90th. Salute

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

90th Yes it's on the forum somewhere. Little hand posted an image of him tied to a sake being interviewed by the Zulu's.

Subject: Liars in the zulu war Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:08 am

Hi Chard .
Correct mate , I do remember seeing and reading it . In regard to your Adendorff query read the earlier pages as Pete has combined all the posts on him to the one thread . Salute

cheers 90th. Salute

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:11 am

Here you go!!!!!

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Guest

Hi all

For all: In this topic I wanted to talk about what kind of guy who wants to draw benefits from the lie ... and how they have been punished ...I hope...

Gary: Grandier was in Ulundi after his capture by the beautiful young woman of the abaQulusi, it's proved now ...

(it's true that if he was not French, they would have killed him right away ...)

Frederic: I know everything you say, but what interests me with Julian is its incredible organization charts ...

Do not forget that I need that kind of information for wargames ...

For example in France, you'll never see a wargame on R D with 158 defenders, but still 139 and you will never see the composite company in a wargame of Isandhlwana, well when I finish my catalog this is over, that's what Julian makes essential ...

Cheers

Pascal

You do not even need books of other authors with ES ...

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Quote :: Gary: Grandier was in Ulundi after his capture by the beautiful young woman of the abaQulusi, it's proved now ...

Many doubted Grandier story back then, and even today.

Guest

Hi all

It's out of jealousy because he was not British.

His escape is extraordinary.

He deserved his weigh in VC .

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Liars in the Zulu war? Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:03 pm

Well, I bet that there were quite a few that spun many a yarn about being in a battle, or of being at a certain place during the AZW. And I bet that afterwards when they came home, a lot of them told many a porky in the tap rooms and vaults of the local boozer, to get those listening to their tales to buy them a pint or a tot. But some of the most blatant porkies were told in 1964, and have been believed by the gullible public for the last 48 years, and the most shameful thing about all this, is that some places that could do something about this injustice are not doing anything to correct it, as it suits them to keep the status quo and keep the porkies alive. Sad really.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:57 pm

littlehand wrote:: I think Juilan can confirm Thomas Thomas wasn't at Isandlwana. There is also a grave on the forum of someone who claimed to have been at RD during the Battle. Even having the inscription put on to his head stone.

This extract from the Welsh Soldiers in the Zulu War

Letter from No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt.

We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition.

Thomas' statement that 'the colonel in command shot himself ' (referring probably to Durnford but possibly to Pulleine) is hard to credit; at the same time it is difficult to understand why he should have made such a statement had he not believed that such was the case.

Whilst it has been established that 1415 Thomas was not at iSandlwana, it is clear from his letter that he must have garenered a lot of information/ hearsay, soon after the event. Happenings to which he refers in his letter show that his version of events had some accuracy (apart from his involvement)!
Does this not reignite Pascal's thread question of 20th December 2011, "Were there suicides at Isamdhlwana?" Thomas' letter almost certainly mirrors what the word on the ground was at the time, in the hours/days following iSandlwana.

Guest

Hi all

So here's one.

And what has happened to this liar who was not at Isandhlwana?

He must have known that his deception would soon discover ...

For the case of suicide, dice 1879, this rumor had ...

So I see that great minds meet and the thing that seemed plausible at the time ...

Today, anyone of suicides during the Battle of Isandhlwana seems impossible since there was no fear of torture with Zulu, as with the Pathan or with the Indians as for the American ...

The atmosphere of this battle certainly does not lend to this, although some think that you know, had a ball 45 in the heart ...

Cheers

Pascal

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:08 am

The rumour that Durnford shot himself is also noted by Harness in a letter to his sister, Caroline Margaret (Harness calls her 'Co'), posted from Helpmekaar and dated 25 January 1879:

Quote :: Poor Durnford it is said was seen surrounded by six [Zulus] and he shot himself to save falling into their hands (quoted in Sonia Clarke (ed.), Invasion of Zululand (Johannesburg, 1979), p. 72).

I believe that a similar rumour did the rounds after George Colley's death at Majuba.

Posts : 947 Join date : 2011-10-21 Location : Algoa Bay

Hi Ellis,
Thanks for your post.
The statement about Col Durnford was corroborated by a Zulu, brought in by Fynn's Police, who attested personally to Gen Wood when he visited Isandlwana in Jul 1880, with Princess Eugenie, that he had seen this happen. There is another recent post on this forum, from another source, which cooraborates the belief that a senior officer had shot himself. Although, in the latter case, the identity remains unclear.

regards

barry

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:38 am

Barry

Thanks for that. If you have a moment, could you give me the specific reference to the statement of this witness?

Ellis

Guest

Hi all

Durnford was also a liar ?

Salute

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Pascal MAHE wrote:: Hi all Durnford was also a liar

What

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

barry wrote:: There is another recent post on this forum, from another source, which cooraborates the belief that a senior officer had shot himself. Although, in the latter case, the identity remains unclear.

Hi Barry

Was it that Thomas guy that said the colonel in command shot himself ?

If so don't belive a word, he wasn't there and some of what he says doesn't make sence.

Cheers

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:54 pm

From No. 1415 Thomas Thomas of Ystalyfera to his Uncle and Aunt. 1

Rorke's Drift.
19 February 1879

".I am very sorry to tell you that we see very hard times of it out here now. We are on the march all the time and we have not seen a bit of bread this last two months, only biscuits all the time and we are often on the road for two or three days at a stretch, that we don't get coffee or tea, only dry biscuit; it is an awful place for water. Another thing, we have to write with powder and water and I had to pay fourpence for this sheet of paper and envelope...
We had a very hard fight for about three hours at a place called Isandhlwana. The Zulus attacked our camp and as soon as we saw them coming, we struck the tents and formed square around the ammunition, and we kept them back for three hours. The General was not with us at the time; he was out somewhere and the colonel that was in command of us (as soon as he saw the Zulus retiring) ordered us to advance after them. We went about 300 yards and they were so many that they came in our rear and took the camp and everything that belonged to us; they came about us so thick that we could not handle our guns and then we knocked them down with the butt of the gun; the Zulus killed about 1841 of our fellows altogether but we ourselves killed some of the volunteers because they were running away and the colonel in command shot himself because he knew he had done wrong. He should not have put us to advance after them and leave the ammunition. However, we killed about 6000 that day. David Davies has been killed"

Thomas' statement that 'the colonel in command shot himself ' (referring probably to Durnford but possibly to Pulleine) is hard to credit; at the same time it is difficult to understand why he should have made such a statement had he not believed that such was the case.

Source:Welsh Soldiers in the Zulu War

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

They didn't form a square

They didn't drop the tents

They didn't keep them back for 3 hours and then advance.

This from Julain

Thomas was not at Isandhlwana and his letter cannot be relied upon in any of its comments. To quote from my England's Sons:
2-24/1415 Pte. Thomas Thomas
This 2/24th soldier came from Ystalyfera in Wales. A letter home to his uncle and aunt from Rorke’s Drift, dated 19th February, 1879, is extant in both Welsh and English versions. They were published in Y Gwladgarwr, 18th March 1879; Y Genedl Gymreig, 24th April 1879; and in the North Wales Express, 18th April 1879. From the ambiguity of the content it could be interpreted that the writer participated in the battle of Isandhlwana and it has appeared in print as a letter from a bona fide survivor. In reality, Thomas was out with his battalion as a member of Chelmsford’s reconnaissance on the 22nd January. Thomas is either deliberately not telling the truth or, to be generous, his writing in the first person plural has been taken literally when what he actually intended to convey was the third person plural.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Ellis wrote:: The rumour that Durnford shot himself is also noted by Harness in a letter to his sister.

Hi Ellis

There were lots of rumours going around in the aftermath, ammuntion running out, Durnford disobaying orders, Pulliene killing himself, Durnford charging the Zulus and getting shot in the heart, the NNC breaking and causing the defeat.

When found Col. Durnford's head was intact and recognizable, so he couldn't have shot himself, if he did
thats the quickest way to go. His body was partly stripped, Hat, Boots, Trousers and belts being taken by the Zulus and covered in stab wounds.

Sources
D.B. scott to Edward Durnford 13th of November 1882
Jabez Molife's 3rd statment 1882
Archibald Forbes Dialy News
Durnford biography by R.W.F Droogleever

Cheers

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:30 pm

Of course the question as to be. "Why did he make this statement in the first place"

How do we know they didn't strike the tents, they certainly wasn't standing after the Battle.

Subject: Liars in the zulu war Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:25 am

Hi Littlehand .
We know the tents werent struck because Mine told Chelmesford that he couldnt see much of the going on's at the camp but said '' The Tents havent been struck , also zulu accounts of getting into the camp and fighting among the tents , I even think Curling mentions this also .
cheers 90th.

Guest

Hi all

In fact the first liar in this war is Chelmsford.

But there are also those who are poor foix, as those who want to stick all the blame for the defeat on him forgetting Durford ...

These guys have been around the end of this war ...

Salute

Pascal

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

littlehand wrote:: How do we know they didn't strike the tents, they certainly wasn't standing after the Battle.

Beacuse no one mentions it being done. It would have been a big job.

Posts : 1261 Join date : 2010-04-12

Quote :: Beacuse no one mentions it being done. It would have been a big job.

Perhaps they were to busy escaping, fighting, or dieing, to worry about wether or not the tents were up or down.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Most Zulus mention the tents being up. It would have to of been done before the attack. It wasn't.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:01 pm

"One of Harness’ subalterns had carelessly remarked that “most of those who escaped were volunteers and Native Contingent officers, who tell any number of lies” , and found himself quoted in print. Settler society in Natal was indignant, and Harness himself had been embarrassed, and insisted on a retraction. Nevertheless, Harness’ own attitudes seep through his comments on the Courts’ findings - “a great deal of evidence was heard”, he wrote, “but it was either corroboratory of evidence already heard, or so unreliable that it was worthless” . Only one colonial officer’s testimony was included by the Court (Captain Nourse, NNC.); by excluding Volunteers and other ranks, let alone the African troops of auxiliary units such as the NNC., the Court effectively denied itself access to much of the evidence, simply because such men made up the bulk of those who survived".

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

This is getting a bit ridiculas .

No evidence for the tents going down. Plenty of evidnce for them being up. The burial party found them still standing.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Captain Nourse, Natal Native Contingent, states: "I was commanding the escort to the Rocket Battery, when Colonel Durnford advanced in front of the camp on the 22nd to meet the enemy. Colonel Durnford had gone on with two troops, Mounted Natives. They went too fast, and left us some two miles in the rear. On hearing heavy firing on our left, and learning that the enemy were in that direction, we changed our direction to the left. Before nearly reaching the crest of the hills on the left of the camp, we were attacked on all sides. One rocket was sent off, and the enemy-was on us; the first volley dispersed the mules and the natives, and we retired on to the camp as well as we could. Before we reached the camp it was destroyed."
Source: Court of Inquiry held to take evidence regarding the disastrous affair of Isandlwana.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:06 pm

DB. We all have our own views on this,

Quote :: This is getting a bit ridiculas .

Don't reply if thats how you feel.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

The tents were standing when Durnford arrived.

The tents were standing when Durnford left

The tents were satnding when Shepstone, Garndner arrived.

The tents were standing when the Zulus got into the camp

The tents were standing when the burial parties returned months later.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:30 pm

So we have established the tents were up. Salute

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:33 pm

90th

Quote :: Mine told Chelmesford that he couldnt see much of the going on's at the camp but said '' The Tents havent been struck

I wonder just how much Milne really saw, from that way off hill.

"Noise, smoke and confusion of battle, which assaulted the senses, and limited visibility; in the memorable words of one who watched the British collapse from afar, it was “seething pandemonium of men and cattle struggling in dense clouds of smoke” .

One Zulu who took part recalled that years later he could “remember little and saw less, except for a twisting mass of men” .
Knight….

Subject: Liars in the zulu war Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:41 pm

Hi Littlehand.
Your statement on Milne '' I wonder just how much Milne really saw '' is correct , all he did see was the tents '' Hadnt been Struck '' , so in C'ford's eyes no need to panic , as the tents were to be struck before any imminent attack .

24th ( I think it's you ) .
Please read my first post .

cheers 90th.

ps . There were no tents after the battle because the zulus cut them up and took the pieces with them , I've seen this many times in books on Isandlwana .

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:06 pm

I agree with LH, this thought had occurred to me also.
How much could Milne really have seen from that distance, even with a powerful telescope?
Up or down, he would have seen not a lot more than scores of tiny white blobs, particularly after a few aperitifs and few nice glasses of claret and not particularly wanting his lunch disturbed any more than was necessary.
Is his the only evidence we have that the tents were not struck?
The only thing that makes me believe they were not struck however, is the fact that if they had been, this would mean that Pulleine actually DID something useful, in between the time of Chelmsford's departure and the commencement of the battle.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:38 pm

Hi
In April last year, I was having my lunch on the top of Milne's Hill. It was a hot afternoon, about 80 degrees. My bino's wearn't particulary powerful, probably about the same as MIlne's were for that time. Anyway, as most of you probably know, Milne's hill is roughly eleven-ish miles from Isandlwana. In my opinion, Milne would've definitely been able to see the White blobs (tents) around the base of Isandlwana, but little else, like he reported. I couldn't make-out anything apart from a hazy dark blur, and don't forget that on the 22nd of January, the temperature was up in the mid 90's, creating even more of a hazy effect.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:46 pm

If the striking of the tents was written into the standing orders, why wasn't this question not asked at the court of enquiry. Essex and co that escaped would have know if the tents had been lowered or not. After all the striking of the tents was part of the Britsih defence system.

In health and safety terms, it would have been classed as a "Tripp hazard"

Therefore a risk assessment would have been required prior to lowering the tents.

Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:28 pm

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Subject: Re: Liars in the Zulu War? Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:53 pm

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