Durnford was he capable.1

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Julian Whybra wrote:: PascalI can only say that Pulleine knew that he was expected to pack up the camp and move to the new site on the Mangeni.

Julian what the source for Pulleine knowing he was going to move the camp that day ?

Didn't most of the men leave in light marching order ?

Cheers

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Was it not Coghill, who brought the order to pack up the tents. scratch

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Hi Dave

No it was Captain Gardner.

I ment how did Pulleine know before this order arrived he was to pack up the camp, surly the fact everyone
had left in light marching order would have made him believe that the whole force was coming back that night ?

Cheers

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

Was he not told to have ammuntion waggons loaded and ready to move when required. I guess he would have taken that as notice to move everything.

Subject: Durnford was he capable Tue May 01, 2012 11:47 pm

Hi DB.
The fact that Chelmesford's force left in light marching order is neither here nor there ! . They left in that manner to get to Dartnell quickly and quietly . As for returning to the camp later , not an option , as the camp was to proceed to Mangeni where C'ford was ; that was to be the new campsite . C'ford had informed the staff that they would only be at Isand I think from memory two or three days - and this was one of the main reasons he decided not to fortify / Entrench or Laager the camp . Happy to be corrected . You need to study mo

.
Cheers 90th. Salute

Guest

Hi all

it is exactly this, we will not fortify a camp that we will leave ...

Not prevented, they could have done better at Isandhlwana seen the information received from 7.30 am on the presence of the Zulus...

Sacred Durnford

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Wed May 02, 2012 10:14 am

Apart from smashing the impi the secondary point of Chelmsford's advance that day was to scout for a new campsite on the Mangeni which he found. The 24th marched out in light order in order to get there asap to attack the impi. It is why small parties from each coy were left behind (to clear up each coy's camp). It is why the waggons were not laagered but kept in the waggon park in preparation to move. It was Gardner who brought the message to move. The focus had already shifted in Chelmsford's mind from Isandhlwana to the Mangeni. Where he was, was the centre of the action, not where he had been. A mindset. The sources are manifold. Harness, Clery, French, etc.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Wed May 02, 2012 10:38 am

The ultimate source of course is Pulleine himself. You know, the last message he sent at 12.15, which ends "Cannot move camp at present".

Guest

Hi Julian

Chelmsford was not afraid that the zulus attacked Pulleine in the countryside, if he leave the camp?

And Pulleine told LC, why he could not leave the camp in his message?

Cheers Salute

pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Wed May 02, 2012 1:46 pm

Pascal
Having cleared the country in between Isandhlwana and the Mangeni (or so he thought), Chelmsford was confident that there was no immediate danger to a column moving up to the new camp.
Pulleine's message read ‘Staff Officer. Heavy firing to left of our camp. Cannot move Camp at present.’

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Most of if not all of Pulliens messages did read as though there really was a problem, no cause for concern.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Did Pulleines last order survive or if not how do we know what it says ?

Cheers

Guest

Hi all

Any ways in response to the topic, " Durnford was he capable ".Durnford was not able to have as many troops under his command ...

Durnford was not capable. Wink

The NNH were ample for such an officer ...

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Thu May 03, 2012 8:39 am

DB
Yes, it read: ‘Staff Officer. Heavy firing to left of our camp. Cannot move Camp at present.’ It was sent no later than 12.15 p.m. Gardner also sent one just afterwards (which was the last known message sent).
Pascal
Blaming Durnford is too easy. It's not that simple. I wish it were.

Guest

Julian

If he survived ... It would have been under martial , no ?

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Thu May 03, 2012 12:13 pm

Pascal
I think you mean he would have been court martialled, yes? If so, then no, I don't think he would. If court-martialled, he would have had the opportunity to produce Chelmsford's Instructions and his own orders. It might have been embarrassing for Chelmsford given the ambiguities. Any attempt to turn Pulleine into a scapegoat could have been easily rebuffed. I think Chelmsford would have had to bear the brunt of the blame. It's just as well for him that the two colonels were killed in action. It left the field clear to say whatever he wanted (within reason). Or more accurately, to not say whatever he wanted. And he did.

Guest

Okay so once and for all, this is Chelmsford responsible for everything ...?

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Thu May 03, 2012 2:20 pm

Pascal
No, the Zulus are responsible for everything.
But seriously, in my opinion, Chelmsford must bear a large part of the responsibility for the way the disaster unfolded and Durnford and Pulleine a smaller share for individual decisions.
Ultimately, on the day, the Zulus had the advantage over the British. It was fate, or to put another way, ill luck for the British and good luck for the Zulu.

Guest

Julian

Any ways, the disaster was predictable well before entering Zululand, the British have underestimated the fury and shock power of the Zulu Royal Army, the British have confused the zulus with their cousins Xhosa, the British are believed to Centane, not to mention that the British have overestimated their firepower with the use of MH against the Xhosa ...

Ps : Alors Julian , le sujet sur les français , est ce trop pour toi ?

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Thu May 03, 2012 4:05 pm

Pascal seriously I wouldn't push it. Its up to you. But take some friendly advice. Stop!!!

Quote :: Ps : Alors Julian , le sujet sur les français , est ce trop pour toi ?

Guest

Stop what

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Thu May 03, 2012 7:17 pm

Pascal
To answer your question, Pascal, it would open a whole new can of worms, and I don't have the time - I'm trying to finish two publications in time for the AZW event at Brecon in June. As it is, I just about have time to look on the two forums occasionally and to offer short postings but nothing major at the moment.
By 'don't push it', Littlehand is referring to your use of French on the forum - although I think Admin might be a bit considerate from time to time where you find it difficult to express a meaning in English. You can always e-mail me in French if you're desperate. The English are traditionally xenophobic - it's one of our little foibles. I think the French have some too...!

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

"Deputy Adjutant General, Col. Bellairs, forwarded the Court’s findings to Lord Chelmsford with the following observation,

“From the statements made to the Court, it may be gathered that the cause of the reverse suffered at Isandhlwana (sic) was that Col. Durnford, as senior officer, overruled the orders which Lt. Col. Pulleine had received to defend the camp, and directed that the troops should be moved into the open, in support of the Native Contingent which he had brought up and which was engaging the enemy”.

"House of Lords on the 19th August 1879, Chelmsford stated that, “in the final analysis, it was Durnford’s disregard of orders that had brought about its (the camp’s) destruction"

And quite right to.

Posts : 1603 Join date : 2009-09-21

"The final orders received by Durnford at Rorke’s Drift on the 22nd January were from Crealock, because they are so ambiguous, they are reproduced exactly;"

“You are to march to this camp at once with all the force you have with you of No.2 Column.
Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorke’s Drift as ordered yesterday. 2/24th, Artillery and mounted men with the General and Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant”.

Source: Adrian Greaves.

Posts : 627 Join date : 2009-01-20 Age : 46

So if we are to believe, that this Order posted by Dave is the original. It does not really give Durnford any real directive. But is this the original.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

1. The court of inquiry was a farce less then 6 people who survived evidence was passed on to London.

2. Pulleine followed Chelmsfords orders on how to defend to the camp, look at the result.

3. Yes dave has posted the correct messeage, read with Durnfords previous orders, he his cleared of
leaving the camp.

4. Chelsmford made way to many mistakes to be blamless but portions of the blame do lie with other
such as Crealock, Durnford.

Cheers

Guest

The abscent are always wrong, so Durnford has been recognized responsible

It's the same everywhere ...

Salute

Pascal

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Fri May 04, 2012 9:23 am

CTSG
It's 'too'. There are none so blind as those who cannot see.
Dave
That's not the full order. And naturally the bit that Greaves leaves out is the most important bit. When will you all stop quoting from modern secondary works?

Guest

Julian

The abscent are always wrong, so Durnford has been recognized responsible

It's the same everywhere ...

Salute

Pascal

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

I'm not sure it really matters what the Order said. Either way he was told to move to the camp. He should of regardless what the position was with Pulliene stayed in the camp. Durnford knew more that most when it came to the Zulu way of life including Military matters. Although I consider Pulliene to be the weak link, Durnford should have stay rather than trying to work independently.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 8:55 am

24th
With the greatest of respect, HOW can you write that it doesn't really matter what the order said and then expect others to take seriously what you have written. For it then just becomes wild opinion based on nothing. To write "Either way he was told to move to the camp" is precisely the point at issue. Because if he wasn't so told, he was merely passing through en route elsewhere.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 9:56 am

He has a point 24th.

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

We all thought it was either of the following. " Take Command" " Defend" then we find out it was.

Durnfords last order

“You are to march to this Camp at once with all the force you have with you of No. 2 Column.
Major Bengough’s battalion is to move to Rorkes Drift as ordered yesterday.
2/24, artillery & mounted men with the General & Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack a Zulu force about 10 miles distant.
J.N.C.
If Bengough’s battalion has crossed the River at Ilands Kraal it is to move up here (Nangwane Valley).”

Its a basic simple order. "March To The Camp" it does not direct him to do anything else. Which tells me he would have been under the command of Pulliene. In Pulliene's eyes he would have just been waiting to receive an order to move camp.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 11:34 am

24th

Read that order in context with the last orders Durnford received. In those Chelmsford gave very precise details of what he wanted to achieve and what he proposed as Durnfords roll. Basically that he would support Chelmsford advance.
Durnford now gets orders on the morning of the 22nd and, having had the prievious orders, sets of for iSandlwana with those orders in mind. He gets to iSandlwana and finds Chelmsford has left the camp pursuant to his stated intentions. In actuall fact Durnford had little choice in the matter but to obey his last orders and set of to support Chelmsford as ordered.
Thats why, as ive posted before the whole sequence of orders have to read as part of a strategic plan worked out before by Chelmsford.

Regards

Posts : 1862 Join date : 2009-03-25

Quote :: In actuall fact Durnford had little choice in the matter but to obey his last orders and set of to support Chelmsford as ordered.

But he didn't obey the order. " Move to the Camp"

And he would have known Chelmsford had moved to assist Dartnell. S.D took the order to him, and Chard met him on his way back from Isandlwana. It would have been mentioned but one or the other.

Posts : 57 Join date : 2012-04-12

24th wrote:: But he didn't obey the order. " Move to the Camp"

You put too much emphasis on the letters of this order (or orders in general) but an order has a deeper meaning which is the important thing. You might order a recruit around like this but an officer is not expected to follow orders like a tool but to interpret it in the context and act accordingly.

cheers

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 12:51 pm

24th
But he did 'Move to the Camp'.
Once there his preceeding orders came into force and he attempted to follow them.

regards

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 3:16 pm

24th
When an historian reads a document like this order, he has to READ it, and look at all the words, and then put it into the context of the man who received it in 1879. The ambiguities in this order are myriad.

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

Quote :: Once there his preceeding orders came into force and he attempted to

What preceding orders. scratch

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Quote :: 24th
When an historian reads a document like this order, he has to READ it, and look at all the words, and then put it into the context of the man who received it in 1879. The ambiguities in this order are myriad.

Steady the 24th. You don't want to be rocking the boat for future publications. Wink

Quote :: 24th
When an historian reads a document like this order, has to READ it, and look at all the words, and then put it into the context of the man who received it in 1879.

And for the man who received them in 1879. He just had to obey them. No context needed. Simplistic as that.

Impi. Durnford was ordered to the camp. Nothing else.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 3:36 pm

CTSG/impi

I repeat, read the orders Chelmsford gave Durnford about his intentions and Durnfords role.

Cheers

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Would be quicker if you posted them

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

And what pray tell me did "Major Bengough’s battalion" do with regards to the order in-question.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Something to remember with Durnford and the Colenso's.

Durnford quickly became unpopular with the Natal colonists when he struck up a friendship with the highly controversial Bishop JW COLENSO, with whom he shared a concern about the fair treatment of the native in Natal (a prime point in his dismissal as Colonial Engineer by Sir Garnet Wolseley).

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

I'm waiting for springbok reply.

Posts : 2008 Join date : 2011-08-01 Age : 27

Impi

They were already posted for you previosly by Julian.

"Head Quarter Camp Near Rorke’s Drift, Zululand 19 January 1879
No 3 column moves tomorrow to Insalwana Hill and from there, as soon as possible to a spot about 10 miles nearer to the Indeni Forest. From that point I intend to operate against the two Matyanas if they refuse to surrender. One is in the stronghold on or near the Mhlazakazi Mountain; the other is in the Indeni Forest. Bengough ought to be ready to cross the Buffalo R. at the Gates of Natal in three days time; and ought to show himself there as soon as possible.
I have sent you an order to cross the tiver at Rorke’s Drift tomorrow with the force you have at Vermaaks. I shall want you to operate against the Matyanas, but will send you fresh instructions on this subject. We shall be about 8 miles from Rorke’s Drift tomorrow."
Chelmsford
L.G.

"Lieut. Colonel Durnford R.E
Camp Helpmakaar

1. You are requested to move the troops under your immediate command viz.: mounted men, rocket battery and Sikeli’s men to Rourke’s Drift tomorrow the 20th inst.; and to encamp on the left bank of the Buffalo (in Zululand).
2. No. 3 Column moves tomorrow to the Isandhlana (Sic) Hill.
3. Major Bengough with his battalion Native Contingent at Sand Spruit is to hold himself in readiness to cross the Buffalo at the shortest possible notice to operate against the chief Matyana &c. His wagons will cross at Rourke’s (Sic) Drift.
4. Information is requested as to the ford where the above battalion can best cross, so as to co-operate with No. 3 Column in clearing the country occupied by the chief Matyana."

By Order, H. Spalding. Major DAAG
Camp, Rourke’s Drift 19.1.79

Posts : 2308 Join date : 2010-07-02 Age : 44

What orders to who, who's the first one to. scratch

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

Impi. It doesn't matter they are both dated the 19th Jan. Chelmsford would not have known that he would be splitting his forces on the 22nd Jan. because of the call for assistance from Major Dartnell. The situation had changed. Durnford was then order to move to the camp. Which makes sense as the column there was reduced in numbers. Chelmsford would have ordered Durnford to follow him if thats what he wanted him to do.

Subject: Re: Durnford was he capable.1 Mon May 07, 2012 7:46 pm

CTSG
You read but you don't see.

Posts : 2593 Join date : 2009-04-24

But I do. But not the way you want me to see. Salute

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