Durnford was he capable.1

Humm.

I wonder in which way Ian meant "to keep an eye on him"?

Did he mean Chelmsford keeping an eye on Durnford (to see what he got up to), or Durnford keeping an eye on Chelmsford (to cover him or reinforce him if he got into trouble)?

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

6pdr.

We must have different editions of Ian's book.

Must be the case. I don't believe I have a first edition. It has both UK and Canadian prices but my wife brought it back from South Africa. Publisher is PAN/Macmillan/Sidgewick & Jackson. Ultimately I don't suppose it matters unless the content differs...

Mr M. Cooper wrote:

Humm.

Did he mean Chelmsford keeping an eye on Durnford (to see what he got up to), or Durnford keeping an eye on Chelmsford (to cover him or reinforce him if he got into trouble)?

The same question occurred to me but after repeat readings from context I think Knight meant Chelmsford desired Durnford be kept nearby because he didn't want him galloping off to no good purpose. On the other hand I think it would go too far to say it was in the context of, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer." ;-)

Hi 6pdr.

My copy of Ian's book is a Pan/Macmillan 2011 paperback, so they might indeed differ a little, but like you say, it doesn't matter unless the content differs.

You could well be right about the Chelmsford/Durnford meaning, but it does make you think.

[quote="springbok9"]6prd
A number of separate issues had come together to form a whole. As Willy said "its the flux.'
iSandlwana is just that, a lot of people each making mistakes that came together in time for that magnificent man Ntshingwayo ka Mahole to work his magic. Frankly even if Chelmsford hadnt left the camp I doubt if the column would have stood up to the impi,

Hear here! Completely agree Springy

The loss at iSandlwana could only have been due to a complete systems failure, not a few men, and all that in concert with a Zulu army completely on top of their game plan.

Clery.
Written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; Not in the absense of Colonel Durnford.


3rd Evidence.—Captain Alan Gardner

"I remained with Colonel Pulleine by his order. Shortly after, I took the mounted men, by Colonel Pulleine's direction, about a quarter of a mile to the front of the camp, and loft them there under the direction of Captain Bradstreet, with orders to hold the spruit. I went back to Colonel Pulleine, but soon after, observing the mounted men retiring, I went back to them, and, in reply to my question as to why they were retiring, was told they were ordered by Colonel Durnford to retire, as the position taken up was too extended"

That’s what I mean by interfering with Pulliene’s orders.

Hi All .
Just a quickie in regard to Durnford's handling of the Bushman's pass incident , I seem to recall he was ordered not to open fire on any account until he was fired upon , this order was directly from the Governor at the time Sir Benjamin Pine , so he did follow his orders and lost 4 men . I think I've the right Governor ? . Happy to be corrected . No time to check , running late for work .
Cheers 90th.

Durnford was more interested in taking orders from the Bishop Colenso...

24th wrote:

Clery.
Written instructions to Colonel Pulleine, 24th Regiment, to the following effect:—" You will be in command of the camp during the absence of Colonel Glyn; Not in the absense of Colonel Durnford.


3rd Evidence.—Captain Alan Gardner

"I remained with Colonel Pulleine by his order. Shortly after, I took the mounted men, by Colonel Pulleine's direction, about a quarter of a mile to the front of the camp, and loft them there under the direction of Captain Bradstreet, with orders to hold the spruit. I went back to Colonel Pulleine, but soon after, observing the mounted men retiring, I went back to them, and, in reply to my question as to why they were retiring, was told they were ordered by Colonel Durnford to retire, as the position taken up was too extended"

That’s what I mean by interfering with Pulliene’s orders.

Clery's evidence is unreliable and can't be trusted

Quote :

Clery's evidence is unreliable and can't be trusted.

Why

24th
Your "manipulating a time frame away from its generally accepted path."
Gardner took the mounted men down to Bradstree, this was before Durnford arrinved back. A time lapse occurs untill he does return and then holds the donga, approx 30 to 45 minutes. He then orders a retreat, From any point on the firing line the donga cannot be seen, Pullein had no view so did not have a clue what was going on down there. Durnford was perfectly within his rights and in 'context' to order the retreat.
The comment about Colenso needs to be treated with the contempt it deserves. :evil:

Cheers

I think the Victorain mind- set and taking things out of context, and looking at Isandlwana with a modern days soldiers head on is becoming extremely dull.
The accounts left by the survivors are all we have, they were written how we were meant to read them. When a questioned is posed, we will get no where if people keep saying its taking out of context ect.

Hi Chard.

I can see what you mean, and I can also see that the phrase appears to annoy you, and you are correct in that we only have the evidence from the enquiries and the accounts from survivors to go on. If you have a good selection of books on the AZW, you can read all the evidence and the various accounts in them for yourself, and you will find that some accounts are in contradiction with other accounts and other pieces of evidence, this may well be because some survivors gave their accounts in a self favouring light to justify their actions. You have to try to read between the lines, and also put togethet some time frames to see if their account matches up with other accounts and other evidence, and most importantly, does it agree with the time frames that others have quoted in their evidence.

Springbok looks into all this sort of thing, and his findings are very well put together and explained, so that we can all see that there is either an agreement with the time frame, or there is a discrepancy in the time frame. So if someone says something that does not fit within the time frame, or does not agree with other accounts or evidence, and others quote it without checking up first, then that is taking things out of context. I know the phrase can get a little annoying at times, maybe using the old saying of "jumping the gun" would be a different way of saying it.

The offending phrase has been removed.

Dave

sorry for the late reply but I don't think we can fully rely on any evidence from any officer of the 24th foot; any officer who was part of Chelmsford cabal/ HQ/breakfast table bunch; any officer who may have been subject to Chelmsford's powerful influence and Chelmsford's determined desire to shift the focus of the blame away from himself.

With the Hillsborough disaster and its recently discovered cover up still fresh in our minds, it should remind us to be suspicious, always. Cover ups and evidence destruction/tampering/invention has long been a part of British uniformed services disaster management.

Unfortunately Clery, accounts is primary evidence. If we dismiss his account, then we need to dismiss all the accounts given at the court of enquiry.

Clery's account only substantiates what he discuss prior to leaving with Chelmsford. The fact that no one discrected his account in 1879 must have some bearing.

Quote :

"You are to march to the camp at once with all the force you have with you of No 2 column, Major Bengough's Battalion is to move to Rorke's Drift as ordered yesterday, 2/24th, artillery, and mounted men with the General and Colonel Glyn move off at once to attack Zulu force about ten miles distant".

There is nothing in the above that can be taken out of context. Is a clear as day. "You are to march to the camp at once with all the force you have with you of No 2 column"

It wasn't Dunfords place to think. His place was in the "Camp" It does not matter if he was operating independantly, Pulliene was ordered to defend the camp, therefore Durnford would have been under his Command as soon as he entered the camp. We can conclude that Durnford had the problem with Pulliene being in command for whatever reason. There are many eyewitness accounts that say Durnford took over command from Pulliene, if this was the case, what did he do while in command?

When he left the camp, command would have fell back to Pulliene. So what was the point in taking command for just over an hour. Durnford gave no thought to the fact that when he left with his men he had weaken the camp, and only returned because he was forced to by the advancing Zulu Army. It's clear to see, he did not do what he was instructed to do.

It which case, when Durnford was forced to return to the camp, would command have fell back to him

Littlehand
" operating indecently"?????? Thats a new one. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Cheers

"You are to march to the camp at once with all the force you have with you of No2 column" Then what????

Read it again, where does it say "you are to take command", where does it say "you are to reinforce the camp", where does it say "you are not to leave the camp", where does it say "you are to take orders from Pulleine" ????

To repeat an often quoted sentence, Durnford was in command of his own independent No2 column, and when he arrived at the camp he would have expected to find fresh orders from Chelmsford waiting for him in the care of Pulleine, there were none.

Pulleine was an officer of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, he was in command of the camp, which was mostly made up of his own regiment, he would not have been too happy at handing over command to Durnford, who, despite his being senior in rank, was not an officer of the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, but an officer of the Royal Engineers.

When Durnford and Pulleine were talking together, other officers assumed that with Durnford being the senior officer, that he would take command, but this did not happen, if it had, then why did Durnford ASK to borrow 2 companies of the 24th, which Pulleine refused. If Durnford had been in command, he could have ORDERED Pulleine to let him have the two companies, but he did not, why? because he knew that Pulleine was in command of the camp, and he also knew that he (Durnford) was in command of his own No2 column.

As I said in an earlier post, Durnford would have expected orders waiting for him from Chelmsford at the camp, it is most likely that he expected that Chelmsford would want him to follow on to support his (Chelmsford's) portion of the centre column, however, there were no orders waiting for him at the camp.

When the reports came in of Zulus heading in the direction of Chelmsford, what was he supposed to do? He had to try to find out what was happening and attempt to stop them from cutting Chelmsford off, if he had stayed at the camp and the Zulus had been attacking Chelmsford's portion of the centre column and he hadn't attempted to stop them, he would have been guilty of neglection of duty, he had no option other than to support his General and try to stop the Zulus from attacking Chelmsford.

In my opinion, blaming Durnford for the loss at iSandlwana is an injustice, and there were many lies told by various people at the time, to protect Chelmsfords backside and throw the blame onto a scapegoat called Durnford.

Quote :

You are to march to the camp at once with all the force you have with you of No2 column"

Martin, nothing else has to be said. That's why it wasn't. Its a basic instruction. It ends with the primary word being CAMP. Durnford wasn't instructed or expected to do anything else other than what the order says.

Pulleine didn't go chasing after Chelmsford, he done what he was ordered to do. (Although he done it badly) defend the camp. That day at Isandlwana didn't just change for Durnford, giving him the right to do what he presumed to be right.

Hi Littlehand .
Chelmesford had to order Durnford to the camp , he couldnt very well send him anywhere else could he ? .
Bit of a difference , March to the camp , and defend the camp !. Dont forget , Durnford was operating independently
as authorised by Chelmesford when he arrived at the camp , and on hearing reports of the zulu moving toward Chelmesford ,
he did what anyone else would've done in the same situation . He went to find out what was going on.
Cheers 90th.

Quote :

Chelmesford had to order Durnford to the camp

And he did. And that's all Durnford had to do. He did not need to complicate issues. Being an Engineer he would have been best suited sorting out defences. Just like Chard had done at RD.

Hi LH.

90th has hit the nail on the head, "Durnford was operating independently as authorised by Chelmsford".

Yes, he was an engineer, but in the little time that he had been at iSandlwana, what sort of defences could he have thrown together in such a short time, and don't forget that Pulleine had many hours to sort out the defences since the first reports of Zulus in the area, and if Pulleine couldn't do it in the many hours that he had, what could Durnford do in the hour or so that he was there?

Pulleine had done very little since the first reports of Zulus, and when Durnford arrived and heard these reports he acted right away by sending scouts out and trying to find out what was going on, so what issues was he complicating by doing this? surely Pulleine should have done something like this long before Durnford arrived.

There is a quote by Chelmsford that CTSG sometimes uses in some of his posts, that goes something like,; "I would expect column commanders to disobey any orders given by me if the situation called for it". Well, the situation at iSandlwana had certainly changed quite a lot since Chelmsford had left in the early hours, however, Pulleine had done very little about it, so when Durnford arrived and was told about the Zulu activity around the camp, he realised that it needed looking into so that he could get an idea of what the situation was, and when it was reported that a large body of Zulus were heading in the direction of Chelmsford, and with him being authorised by Chelmsford to operate independently, he did what any good officer would do, and went to find out where these Zulus were going and cover his Generals flank, just in case the Zulus were trying to cut off or attack Chelmsford.

Quote :

Durnford was operating independently as authorised by Chelmsford".

Before he was ordered to the camp. Durnfords place no matter how you dissect was in the Camp. "March with all your force to the camp" End Of!!!!

Dave wrote:

Unfortunately Clery, accounts is primary evidence. If we dismiss his account, then we need to dismiss all the accounts given at the court of enquiry.

Clery's account only substantiates what he discuss prior to leaving with Chelmsford. The fact that no one discrected his account in 1879 must have some bearing.

Hi Dave
Just to unpick that slightly. Primary evidence is not gospel truth, it may be completely untrue of course, particularly if there is or was a cover up going on.
I didn't say "dismiss" Clery's account, or that of any other, but to be "suspicious" and not treat it as "completely reliable."
And to apply this principle to all those statements of men as outlined above, given after the battle.
Your point about discussions "prior to leaving with Chelmsford" is of course a most valid point.
What was said and recorded before the disaster itself is obviously very much more reliable.

OK LH.

So Durnford arrives at the camp, what does he do now.

Take over command? No! he has not been ordered to do that, besides, Pulleine has been ordered to do that and also to defend the camp.

Reinforce the camp? No! he has not been ordered to do that.

Take orders from Pulleine? No! he is senior in rank to Pulleine, and a junior officer cannot give orders to his senior.

Arrange defences for the camp? No! he had not been ordered to do that, besides, what sort of defences could he have arranged in the hour or so that he had been there, when Pulleine couldn't do it in the many hours he had since the first reports of Zulus in the area.

Was he ordered to stay at the camp? No! because he was in command of his own independent No2 column, and was operating independently as authorised by Chelmsford himself.

So what was he supposed to do? Sit on his backside and do nothing but take in the views while the camp or Chelmsford were attacked?

He would have been expecting to find further orders from Chelmsford at the camp in the care of Pulleine, however, there were no orders, he was therefor in command of his own independent No2 column, and had the right to leave the camp when it was reported that Zulus were heading in the direction of Chelmsford, he had to find out where they were going, and try to stop them from out flanking or attacking Chelmsford.

Quote :

So Durnford arrives at the camp, what does he do now.

Quote :

Take orders from Pulleine

Yes, Martin it was that simple.




Extract: Bushman's River Pass. Some sounds familiar.
"Mindful of his orders not to fire the first shot, Durnford relied on parleying which proved futile: more and more Hlubis were emerging from the pass, some crowding round Durnford's small band and others taking cover behind rocks. The Carbineers became increasingly nervous, and their own senior officer, Capt Barter, reported to Durnford that he could no longer rely on his men. The apprehension of the Carbineers was aggravated by the vociferous expression of fear for their safety by one of their NCOs, Sergeant Clark. When Durnford sensed that his men were on the point of breaking, he called out dramatically: 'Will no one stand by me?' - whereupon three troopers rallied to his side. Then he gave the order for a slow withdrawal to higher ground. As soon as the Carbineers began to move a single shot rang out from the ranks of the concealed Hlubis, followed by a ragged volley. The three troopers by Durnford's side, Erskine, Bond and Potterill, were struck down and the interpreter's horse was shot from under him. As Durnford stopped to help him double-mount, Elijah Khambule was shot through the head and Durnford himself received two assegai stabs, one in his side, the other in his elbow; severing a nerve thus paralysing his left under-arm and hand for the rest of his life. Durnford managed to shoot two of his assailants with his revolver and to extricate himself. The Carbineers had panicked and were galloping back the way they had come. The young chief who was leading the mounted Basutos managed to rally his men and Durnford used them to cover the headlong retreat of the Carbineers and to check the pursuit by the amaHlubi when they got too close. When he eventually caught up with his errant Carbineers he was almost weeping with rage and frustration as he berated them, holding up the Basuto troopers as examples of proper soldiers. However, at the sight of the first pursuing Hlubis the Carbineers broke again and scrambling down the pass they did not stop until they reached camp. They were in a state of utter exhaustion having spent 41 hours out of 53 in the saddle, with hardly anything to eat or drink. The strayed pack-horses with their rations and ammunition were found too late to be of any use."

Quote :

Take orders from Pulleine? No! he is senior in rank to Pulleine, and a junior officer cannot give orders to his senior.

Martin. Col: Durnford's rank of Lieutenant Colonel was in a colonial force, which did not give him seniority over Pulleine, who was a Brevet Lieutenant Colonel in a regular unit.

littlehand wrote:

Quote :

Durnford was operating independently as authorised by Chelmsford".

Before he was ordered to the camp. Durnfords place no matter how you dissect was in the Camp. "March with all your force to the camp" End Of!!!!

"March with all your force to the camp"
Which he did! Found sweet Fanny Adams going on at said camp, a lack of urgency or direction on the part of Pulleine, procrastination, a disbelief of the reports coming in from the scouts and so Durnford made an attempt to do something about the fact that the camp was being approached by columns of Zulus.
Maybe he got his tactics wrong, but at least he tried to do something, which is more than what Pulleine had done in the previous several hours.

Tasker, I would agree if he had involved all the men it the camp. But he didn't
That aside, his only responsiblility under orders was to take himself and his force to Isandlwana. The fact it came under attack, would have meant that he was involved in one way or another in its defence, not leave.

Hi LH.

I think you will find that Col Durnford was in fact not a Lt Colonel but a brevet Colonel, his brevet promotion to the rank of Colonel was on 31 Dec 1878.

Although he was in command of a colonial force, he himself was a regular British Army officer in the Royal Engineers.

I know that Pulliene would not have been too happy about handing over command to an officer that was not of his own regiment, ie; 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, however, it would appear that Durnford did outrank him, but he had not been ordered to take command of the camp, so he was still in command of No2 column, which of course, was independent from the centre column.

Chelmsford should have left clear orders for Durnford in the care of Pulliene when he left in the early hours, but he failed to do this. This in turn caused confusion as to who was in command at the camp, but with Durnford not having any orders to take command, he did not interfere with Pulliene's orders to defend the camp. Again, when the reports came in about Zulus heading in the direction of Chelmsford, he had to act on this, either that or risk his General being outflanked, cut off or attacked, so he set off to find out what was happening, and don't forget, the battle had not started when he set off, so he wasn't trying to do a runner, he was trying to protect Chelmsford's backside.

Martin theoretically Durnford was senior. But he had been promoted into a colonial unit, even though he was a regular officer - colonials were not accepted by the regulars as "senior" regardless of their apparent rank.

The fact that Durnfords order never mentioned " him taking command adds weight to this.

Quote :

I know that Pulliene would not have been too happy about handing over command to an officer that was not of his own regiment, ie; 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, however, it would appear that Durnford did outrank him, but he had not been ordered to take command of the camp, so he was still in command of No2 column, which of course, was independent from the centre column.

Pulliene did not have to hand over command, he was in command in the absents of Col: Glyn.

Quote :

Chelmsford should have left clear orders for Durnford

He did, they were delivered by Smith-Dorrent at RD.

CTSG.

I can't be sure, but you may be right about about colonial officers and regular officers, but would this have been official or just how the regulars felt about colonials I wonder, I will have to have a read up about that.

The orders delivered by Smith-Dorrien were for Durnford to move to iSandlwana from RD, the orders I am talking about were the ones Chelmsford should have left at the camp for Durnford in the care of Pulliene, if he had left these orders, it would not have caused any confusion about who was in command when Durnford arrived, and it would have made it clear as to what Durnford was supposed to do once he was at iSandlwana. With no orders being left for him at the camp, he was still in command of an independent No2 column, and would have felt duty bound to find out where the Zulus were going when it was reported that they were heading in the direction of Chelmsford.

I have spent the last few hours looking for a book., can I find it NO! I only had it a few days ago.


Someone else my know what book I'm talking about.

It was suggested that Chelmsford and co. didn't expect Durnford to arrive at the camp so soon, and thought they would be back at camp before him, where new orders could ave been issued to him.

Ring any bells with anyone.

Quote :

Chelmsford should have left clear orders for Durnford

He did, they were delivered by Smith-Dorrent at RD. [/quote]

But they were not CLEAR. No specificity at all.
Even now, these orders are debated and interpreted as to how one wants to interpret them.
Durnford was ordered to move to the camp, which he did. And that's that. Nowhere did it state to take control or to stay atthe camp.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I know the feeling LH, if I put something down in this house, it appears to grow legs and walk away to somewhere that I know I didn't leave it, ask anyone about it, and the look on their faces says it all, ie,; 'Mrs Shifter' has been around again, either that or the family spook has been wandering about the house.

I can't recall the book you mention mate, and I can't recall reading anything like that, and I bet Col Durnford wished that Chelmsford and Co had got back before he had arrived at the camp.

Hope you find the book LH, let us know what it's called when or if you find it.

If we go back to the point just before Chelmsford left to assist Dartnell. There was no threat to the camp. As other members have pointed they didn't know the camp was going to be attack. Chelmsford knew he was cutting the force at the camp in half.

The Order in question was sent prior to any sightings of Zulus around the areas of the camp. Does it not stand to reason Dunford was brought up to the camp, as a precaution / or to be there when Chelmsford returned.

So the order would have contained nothing more than " move to the camp" what else was there to say. Chelmsford had left Pulliene in command in the absents of Glynn.

LH. Raises a good point.

What do other members think the order should have contained.

Wether or not he was to reinforce / take command.

Exactly 24th.

The orders should have been more specific and clear has to what Durnford was expected to do when he arrived at the camp. If Chelmsford wanted him to take command he should have made that clear in the orders, if he wanted him to reinforce the camp, he should have specified that in the orders. However, as LH said in an earlier post (if he can find the book), Chelmsford was surprised that Durnford had arrived at the camp that early, as he (Chelmsford) expected to have been back at the camp before Durnford had arrived there, so maybe, if that was the case, Chelmsford could have issued fresh orders to Durnford when he arrived.

But actually, Chelmsford could not foresee what he might encounter when he left to help Dartnell, so really he should have been more specific in the orders that Smith-Dorrien delivered to Durnford, or left additional orders in the care of Pulliene to give to Durnford when he arrived at the camp.



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