Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records

Hi springy.

Yes, that's what I mean by a puzzle. If Wilson and Roy of the escort party were at RD, and David Jenkins was also with the escort party, then he must have been with them at RD, yet his name is not shown on the roll that is on the RDVC site?

C/Sgt Edwards' comment about these men 'sent to the rear' was made at iSandlwana, so yes, he could well have meant RD, and that is maybe why David Jenkins wrote that he had 'escaped' the massacre, yet according to David Payne and Adrian Greaves, David Jenkins does not mention RD in his letter, which I find rather odd.

Like I said earlier, some things just don't add up, maybe a bit more research is needed before anyone starts jumping the gun.

Dave
I defend Julian possibly because of the amount of abuse he has taken/is taking. I have doubts you will hear from him in that regard.

Martin
Fully agree

Regards

Hi springy.

I fully agree with your comments regarding Julian. Having such a noted researcher and historian becoming a member and sharing his findings with us was a great bonus to us all, and he could well have done without some of the ill thought out remarks and abuse.

Pointless. David has provided Primary Source evidence. None of you can provide a reasonable reply, so you all go off in a different direction. Martin, you haven't got Julian Whybra tattooed on your forehead by any chance

David excellent post. It's just a pity it's wasted on those that can't see beyond Julian Whybra.

It's evident enough to provide a good argument that's suggest DAVID JENKINS was not one of the defenders at Rorkes Drift.

I'll throw this one into the mix, does Private David Jenkins' service record still exist?

If so has anyone seen it and what details does it include?

Surely if that exists it must hold the key.

'Jimu

Precisely

Its very apparent that not one member has answered my questions or put forward a counter argument.
So no, despite the emphatic agreement and willingness to overlook all the pitfalls and errors in the essay, there is no proof whatsoever that David Jenkins was not at RD.

Hi Springbok .
I'm keeping an open mind on the matter . Hope all is well ? .
Cheers 90th.

Hi All

The purpose of the item posted was to summarise all of the facts as we see them. It was most definitely not meant as an attack on any other author(s). All we have produced is facts as we see them.

All we are asking is for some prime evidence to prove that DJ was there. If this evidence is produced we will be there to give him the merit he deserves.

To answer one point made, Chelmsford I believe was back at PM on the 27th. No doubt he was on horseback and not on foot with a medical condition.

As a thought we have put our evidence forward ( As a point of interest this article is just one out of six in the AZWHS journal which is produced every six months - as mentioned before Adrian and I meet up several times a week and have over 40 years of research between us).
Is there anybody out there who can put forward a whole scenario to support that he was there?

Regards

David

Hi David
I most certainly didnt accuse you of trying to denigate another historian, those comments were reserved for others.
In responce to your request to prove David Jenkins was at RD.
You have had the scenario painted by the RRW et al as proof. You have responded to that with your theories. My responce as been to your paper.
I have questioned various aspects of your paper surely its to these you would wish to respond? In other words Im attempting to disprove your theory rather than prove the obverse.
I would also question the throwing into the pot the question of Cooper and the comparison with Jenkins. Coopers case is far weaker with only a letter saying he had died on the 22nd, no indication of when or where or the circumstance. But thats a whole new ball game.
Regards

Been doing a bit of checking up on this, and it appears that all the names mentioned by Col Sgt Edwards as being sent to the rear on prisoner escort duty, ie, Sgt Wilson and Pte's Payton, Desmond, Jenkins and Roy, are all there on the RD roll, however, the Jenkins mentioned is James Jenkins not David Jenkins, so it is looking like someone at sometime could have made an error with their research. And the ledger/diary looks like it was added to long after the events at RD, as shown by the (swb) after the signatures, which shows that it must have been added to after July 1881 at the very earliest, as before then the regiment was called the 24th (2nd Warwickshire) regiment, not the swb.

As Dr. A.G. and David point out in the essay, David Jenkins never mentioned RD in his letter home, nor said that he was at RD, so why then did he mention in his letter that he 'escaped' from iSandlwana, could he have been trying to impress his family and friends I wonder?

Oh! and by the way, no impi, I don't have any tattoos on my head, does the one on yours say 'empty' ????

Just to throw another spanner in the works, Dr. A.G. and David say in the essay, "The only man named Jenkins present at the engagement was Pte M Jenkins who's death was witnessed by William Jones". I was under the impression that he was called Pte James Jenkins, so who is this Pte M Jenkins that is mentioned in the essay, or was it just a typo?

Like Jimu says, does David Jenkins' service record still exist?

If not, then more research needs to be done, as at the moment things just don't add up.

Quote :

"Private David Jenkins being a Rorke's Drift defender are a bit premature"

No matter how we look at this, the above certainly seems to be the case. Going by what I have read, Jenkins being added to the roll was based on a Bible and a few Sketches, and accounts of a man named Jenkens by a few defenders.

Notes/ Documents on the life and army service Jenkins David 1-24th/ 295 G Coy

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Page 24.

For a moment I thought you were posting his service record.

The army service record, should show if David Jenkins was present at RD or not. Wonder why this evidence wasn't included in the original research by Martin Everett, then there would have been no doubts

1st Battalion 2th Regiment. KIA Isandlwana.

Jenkins Jas 841
Jenkins W 1083
Jenkins W 1767

2nd Battalion 2th Regiment. KIA Isandlwana.
Jenkins W 1135
____________________________________
3rd Feb 1879

Chards Roll Call Rorkes Drift.

Jenkins W 1083
Jenkins Jas 841
___________________________________

Chelmsford received his list of men killed from Col Glyn on the 8th Feb 1879.
5 Days after Chard submitted his.

Someone maybe able to answer this question. Who the men have carried anything that would show their name and number. Would their kit have been labelled, Army pay book, ect.

On 15th May Lieutenant Colonel Black and a small party rode to Isandlwana. I beileve this was the first visit since the Battle.

How did Glynn obtain his list ?

Chelmsford stated in his letter to the Secretary of the state of war.

"It Will, I fear be impossible to furnish and absolutely correct list of all those who perished on the 22nd January, as every record with the several corps belonging to No 3 Column has been lost"

Looking at Chard Roll it records the defenders names and army numbers, are there any other mistakes made by Chard regarding army numbers. or is Jenkins the only one.

Sorry LH can't answer the identfication question, but i'm sure the men would have labelled their own kit, as they nearly all had the same name, i would have thought they would have used thier numbers as well.

Its looks to like Glyns list has caused the confusion. Published after Chards. And a good question, how did he compile his report.

In which case Chard had a better chance of getting the names right more so than Glyn did. It has been said that it was near impossible to identifiy most of the dead at Isandlwana.

It just seems odd that, both rolls they have the same Jenkins killed in both Battles.

Jenkins Jas 841
Jenkins W 1083

But still know David?

Well unless i have missed it, left my glasses at work I cannot see any connection with him being at RD.

Don’t know about David being a prisoner escort, going by his record, he was a prisoner.Thanks for posting 1879Graves; I believe that firmly concludes David Jenkins was not at Rorke’s drift. The print is hard to read but I certainly cannot see Rorke’s Drift.

Graves.. Struggling with text on his papers. Am I correct in saying he was inconfinement when the Battle of RD took place.

He certainly didn't like army life, he deserted quite a few times, can't see him hanging around at RD

I'm thinking he was a prisoner, being taken back to the rear!!!!!

Calm down Impi!! Your letting the side down. I'm sure Martin is big enough to see it for himself.

LH post certainly confirms mistakes could have been made. The Glyn list and how he obtained the names need tI be researched.

Looking at David Jenkins record, he certainly would not have impressed his folkes back home.

Being present during the battle of RD would have.

Why do you say firmly WRONG about the BBC webpage?

David Jenkins as 1/24th was one of few survivors based in UK (Colchester) for Lady Butler to use. Others from RD were in hospital or discharged. B Company 2/24th were either in Gibraltar or from September 1880 in Secunderabad, India.

Quote :

Why do you say firmly WRONG about the BBC webpage?

Sorry Kenny, am I missing something!

Kenny, going by his service papers, he wasn't at Rorkes Drift. If he was it would indicate it.

Agree with the others, the print is small, but I cannot see Rorkes Drift.

So you have checked the papers for Sgt Wilson, Pte Desmond, & Pte Payton - also from G Company 1/24th to confirm that they have 'present at Rorke's Drift 22/23 January 1879' on their service record. Depends how diligent the ORC of 1/24th (one who replaced Sgt Hornibrook killed Isandlwana) was.

They are not the topic of this discussion. But If you think that would help. Post them

In confinement 18th Nov until 20th Nov 1879

Where would he have been when this sentence was passed.

There is still something not right about all this, things just don't add up.

In his letter to his father David Jenkins states he 'escaped' from iSandlwana (probably meaning he got away with the escort party before the battle), however, he then goes on to say, "Oh I never saw such a sight", but if he had gone with the escort party (escaped) from iSandlwana before the battle, and was a defender at RD, then how could he have 'seen such a sight', he says "the remainder were cut to pieces, - in fact cut in bits - with those savages", but if he wasn't there at iSandlwana how did he see this?

I can see how Chard might have made a mistake on his roll by putting the wrong number down, ie; 1083 instead of 295, he might not have been familier with the men and asked others for information, and in 'Jenkins' case he most probably asked Sgt Wilson, who just might have given Chard the wrong number for Jenkins (1083), when he should have said (295), easy done when a few men have the same surname. But what I can't understand is why David Jenkins never mentioned in the letter to his father anything about his part in the defence of RD. It just seems strange that he should focus on the defeat at iSandlwana rather than the victory at RD, especially if he took part in that victory. Maybe he did write other letters about his part in the battle of RD, but maybe they haven't come to light yet, or they might have been destroyed, we will have to wait and see how all this unfolds.

Martin
Nothing here is new. Read The Legacy Series volume 9 from Kris Wheatly, its all in there including three AWOL charges and a Desertion charge plus the fact that he was prone to social diseases. None of the above however says where he was on the 22nd.
The letter you are examining was written in Welsh, its possible words got lost in translation, Martin Everet has appeared to think so, possibly not escaped but suvived?
I think as well that a lot of the letters home relied on hearsay. Read The Red Soldier, lots of instances in there of letters being sent home with graphic descriptions. The battle was at the time much much bigger than RD, to my mind still is, so would make a more lurid topic. I think the key is more in the second section when he talks about the fort, thast more of an in house type comment. All reading between the lines of course.
The concept of the bible has been denigated and frankly deliberatly miss directed.
They werent 'dumped in the kit bags'. Each one was individually inscribed by one of the presenting ladies and actually presented. To be inscribed in the Copper plate took time and would have been compiled from a list. They were not hurriedly scrambled with a Biro or pencil on the Quay. So where did that list come from? With over a hundred Bibles that had names and numbers annotated they didnt suck them out of there thumbs. That list would have had to be an official list.
After the war there were various functions, greeting the heros etc. They were presented to royalty, they were feted on many occasions. David Jenkins was one of those attending and being presented, were the rest of the men really that dumb that they would never point out an imposter?
Theres a myth about all the defenders posing for Lady Butler, Bromhead wasnt even in the country. Neither were most of the VC winners. The regimental depot would have been contacted and asked to send along what suvivors were around. Hence Jenkins and possibly a few other lesser known figures.
There are a lot of glaring points in the Essay that require in depth testing. Ive mentioned the various sitings of different Jenkins ( all in source material ) this has been glossed over in a remarkable manner by the authors. Their explanations boils down to a man, 'effectivly bed ridden' (Reynolds) who was killed by the zulu when the hospital was attacked ( probably mid evening ) described in the essay as 'late in the battle', jumping out of bed, (he was isolated in a room, as were all the patients) out of a window/barracaded door, dashing around the hospital, leaping over the biscuit box wall, blasting of a few rounds ( must have borrowed a gun ) warning Chard he was about to be shot (Chard) ( all this in his nightshirt or long johns, funny Chard didnt mention that). And then excusing himself, probably saluted, a quick jump back over the biscuit boxes, hell for leather around the hospital again, dive through the window and back into bed ready to be hauled out and assisted through the holes made in the wall by the defenders and getting stabbed in the process.( Smith)
Now if that works for the forum members then so be it.

The fact that an escort party has been recorded and all those named members are proven to be at RD, except for one, should give weight to the argument. I believe, and I stress its a belief ( To that Im just as entitled to have as AG ) that David Jenkins was being escorted, along with one or two more, ( That party is just to big for one mans escort in a hostile country where there is no place to run) back to Helpmakaar. The number mix up could possibly have come from the transit papers, with the wrong regimental number being allocated and recorded by Sgnt Wilson. That would possibly then explain that after the battle when the list was being drawn up the elements from the 1/24 unknown to the 2/24 were listed on information supplied by Wilson erroneously. And only corrected at a later point, and it had to have been corrected for the list given to the ladies of Durban to work from.


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The Authors have tried to justify there summations by invoking the doyen of RD research, Kris Wheatley, saying she has abandoned Jenkins. Not so he features very prominently in her volume 9. I have it on excelent authority that she stands by her work.

The documents posted by Graves ( brilliant as usual ) are not the record of postings. So no there is no record of RD, isandlwana or Helpmakaar. As pointed out by Lord Chelmsford himself, all records were lost and to give a detailed report on those lost would not be possible.

The Royal Regiment of Wales, its Museum and various researchers have put forward ample proof that David Jenkins was at RD. The article from David and AG has not come close to addressing any thought to the contrary. The notes above are but a few that they have glossed over or not explored.

There is more proof that David Jenkins was at RD than against. To use the AG terminology, if it was a court case and the evidence was presented David Jenkins would be found present.

Gentlemen, debate the issues, its not about scoring points against each other or hurling insults like children. This is a discussion forum, so discuss.

Prove me wrong, I invite you.

Cheers

Sprinkbok. Your making a fool of yourself.. : Service papers man, look at the service papers..

1879graves wrote:

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Springbok

Quote :

The documents posted by Graves ( brilliant as usual ) are not the record of postings. So no there is no record of RD, isandlwana or Helpmakaar. As pointed out by Lord Chelmsford himself, all records were lost and to give a detailed report on those lost would not be possible

Look at the last image.

I have, I would however be grateful if you pointed out the following
Natal
Durban
PMB
Helpmakaar
Isandlwana
Or any single posting in the Eastern Cape or Western Cape
Cant seem to see them at all.

But is that the extent of argument against my rebutal?

Sprinkbok

Quote :

"Prove me wrong, I invite you"

The evidence is before your eyes.

If those service papers are incorrect 1879Graves & 90th would have said so. Those two members are well versed on service papers of that period.

As for David Jenkins being missed of every roll call connected with Rorkes Drift. And now!!! No mention of RD on his service papers.

No one is doubting Jenkins wasn't at RD. But it wasn't the David Jenkins inquestion.

Dave
See my prievious post, we know he was in Natal etc, now show me where it says so on his service papers? Take it to another level and produce a set of service papers from anyone of the 1/24th that says they served at RD.

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"is indicated on this side of Robert's attestation paper.  It was whilst serving overseas in the Cape that 1315 Pte Robert Tongue of B Company, the 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment of Foot, was one of the heroic defenders of Rorke's Drift."

I can't to do anything with the image, but you computer experts might.

Let me quote from the certficate of service concerning postings:
"The country only to be shown-it is not necessary to show seperatly the service in the different stations of the same country."
So how does the COS proove he wasnt at RD.

Cheers

Come on Springbok, anyone involved in the defence of RD would have it written on there service record, and this is the case.

OH
DAvid Jenkins hasnt! Have you managed to find an annotated record for the 1/24 yet?

Cheers

springbok9 wrote:

Dave
I defend Julian possibly because of the amount of abuse he has taken/is taking. I have doubts you will hear from him in that regard.

Martin
Fully agree

Regards

Julian will no doubt, if he has the time, look at all the evidence, submitted along with David Paynes essay, and come up with reasonable argument or explanation as to why RD is not indicated on David's service papers. At least the service paper issue has moved the discussion in a new direction.

Quote :

OH
DAvid Jenkins hasnt! Have you managed to find an annotated record for the 1/24 yet?

Cheers

I did post a link to one above

OH
Wasnt that a link to a 2/24th?

Cheers

OH
Ive tried to enlarge that image, it does indicate his service, for the life of me I cant see any mention of RD though?

Cheers

Hi springy.

I understand what you are saying my friend, so no problems there.

I wonder if the actual letter, or indeed any other letters sent home by David Jenkins still exist?

If so, then surely someone like Bill could translate them properly so that the actual wording is revealed.

If the letter, or any other letters were translated wrongly or words were missed out, then yes, this might explain a lot of things, and I see what you mean about hearsay, however, David Jenkins stated to his father that he had never seen such a sight, implying that he had actually witnessed the horrible scene at iSandlwana, yet if he was at RD he could not have seen this, (a little bravado perhaps).

Reading through the Chard roll, there was obviously another Jenkins at RD, and it is a pity that Chard got the number wrong, but like you say, the ladies would have to have the correct numbers for them to dedicate the bibles to the soldiers, so this mistake must have been corrected at some time before the bible was issued to David Jenkins, is there any corrected roll that you know of?

Cheers mate.

Hi Gents

I have found two Defenders Service Papers, One with the mention of RD and the other without.

One without a mention "Henry Turner"

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The one that mentions RD "John Waters"

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hi Graves
Thats the situation I am finding as well. Some are mentioned some arent.
Do we then follow' impis' line of thought and say because RD is not mentioned on their papers they werent there?
If so we would have to get rid of the colosul Sgnt Windrige, no mention on his papers. Or how about, Miller, Luddington,Partridge,and Sears? Just a few that spring to mind.
Milne is annotated, purely I think because he was mentioned in despatches for offering to man the ponts. So is Attwood, again he was awarded the DCM.

So again the fact there is no mention on Jenkins paper is proof of nothing Im afraid.

I dont know if you would agree but it seems that there are only mentions when there is cause, ie your man was wounded so the form specifically asks for the place it occured.

Cheers

Nice work 1879graves.

This proves that not all defenders at RD have this action listed on their paperwork.

Great post, brilliant in fact.

Very well done.