WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM

Film Zulu. Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  Latest imagesLatest images  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  
Latest topics
» H.M.S. Forester
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyToday at 4:07 pm by johnex

» Royal Marine Light Infantry, Chatham
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyToday at 3:45 pm by johnex

» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyYesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyYesterday at 10:53 am by Julian Whybra

» Samuel Popple
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyYesterday at 8:43 am by STEPHEN JAMES

» Studies in the Zulu War volume VI now available
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Nov 09, 2024 6:38 pm by Julian Whybra

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» Grave of Henry Spalding
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 8:10 pm by 1879graves

» John West at Kambula
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Nov 07, 2024 5:25 pm by MKalny15

» Private Frederick Evans 2/24th
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 8:12 pm by Dash

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Nov 03, 2024 10:51 am by Kev T

» Isandlwana Casualty - McCathie/McCarthy
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Nov 02, 2024 1:40 pm by Julian Whybra

» William Jones Comment
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 6:07 pm by Eddie

» Brother of Lt Young
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 5:13 pm by Eddie

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:48 am by lydenburg

» Mr Spiers KIA iSandlwana ?
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:50 am by Julian Whybra

» Isandhlwana unaccounted for casualties
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 7:48 am by Julian Whybra

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 12:32 pm by Julian Whybra

» Absence of Vereker from Snook's Book
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Oct 25, 2024 10:59 pm by Julian Whybra

» Another Actor related to the Degacher-Hitchcock family
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyMon Oct 21, 2024 1:07 pm by Stefaan

» No. 799 George Williams and his son-in-law No. 243 Thomas Newman
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Oct 19, 2024 12:36 pm by Dash

» Alphonse de Neuville- Painting the Defence of Rorke's Drift
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Oct 18, 2024 8:34 am by Stefaan

» Studies in the Zulu War volumes
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Oct 16, 2024 3:26 pm by Julian Whybra

» Martini Henry carbine IC1 markings
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 10:48 pm by Parkerbloggs

» James Conner 1879 clasp
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyMon Oct 14, 2024 7:12 pm by Kenny

» 80th REG of Foot (Staffords)
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 9:07 pm by shadeswolf

» Frontier Light Horse uniform
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 8:12 pm by Schlaumeier

» Gelsthorpe, G. 1374 Private 1/24th / Scott, Sidney W. 521 Private 1/24th
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 13, 2024 1:00 pm by Dash

» A Bullet Bible
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Oct 12, 2024 8:33 am by Julian Whybra

» Brothers Sears
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 7:17 pm by Eddie

» Zulu War Medal MHS Tamar
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Oct 11, 2024 3:48 pm by philip c

» Ford Park Cemetery, Plymouth.
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyTue Oct 08, 2024 4:15 pm by rai

» Shipping - transport in the AZW
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 10:47 pm by Bill8183

» 1879 South Africa Medal named 1879 BAR
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 12:41 pm by Dash

» A note on Captain Norris Edward Davey, Natal Volunteer Staff.
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 06, 2024 12:16 pm by Julian Whybra

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 
Rechercher Advanced Search
November 2024
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
    123
45678910
11121314151617
18192021222324
252627282930 
CalendarCalendar
Most active topics
Durnford was he capable.1
Durnford was he capable. 4
Durnford was he capable.5
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Isandlwana, Last Stands
The ammunition question
Durnford was he capable. 3
Durnford was he capable.2
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
The missing five hours.
Most Viewed Topics
Please Do Not Post Ads on Our Forum
Google Chrome new standards imposed
Isandlwana, Last Stands
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
In deference to other online platforms discussing the history of the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879
The missing five hours.
ISANDLWANA SURVIVIORS
The ammunition question
Recent Members To The ZULU WAR 1879 Discussion & Reference Forum ( A Small Victorian War in 1879)
Pte David Jenkins. 'Forgotten' Survivor of Rorke's Drift Returned to Official Records
Top posting users this month
Julian Whybra
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
Tig Van Milcroft
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
SRB1965
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
warrior3
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
John Young
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
Eddie
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
MKalny15
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
STEPHEN JAMES
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
lydenburg
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
Tim Needham
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_leftThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC BarThe wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Bar_right 
New topics
» Colonel Edward William Bray, 2nd/4th Regt.
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyYesterday at 8:49 pm by John Young

» Samuel Popple
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyTue Nov 12, 2024 3:36 pm by STEPHEN JAMES

» Colonel Charles Knight Pearson
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 08, 2024 5:56 pm by LincolnJDH

» John West at Kambula
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyMon Nov 04, 2024 11:54 pm by MKalny15

» How to find medal entitlement Coker
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Nov 01, 2024 9:32 am by Kev T

» Frederick Marsh - HMS Tenedos
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Oct 31, 2024 1:42 pm by lydenburg

» Did Ntishingwayo really not know Lord C wasn't at home
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyMon Oct 28, 2024 8:18 am by SRB1965

» Thrupps report to Surgeon General Wolfies
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Oct 27, 2024 11:32 am by SRB1965

» Brother of Lt Young
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Oct 26, 2024 9:52 pm by Eddie

Similar topics
Zero tolerance to harassment and bullying.
Due to recent events on this forum, we have now imposed a zero tolerance to harassment and bullying. All reports will be treated seriously, and will lead to a permanent ban of both membership and IP address. Any member blatantly corresponding in a deliberate and provoking manner will be removed from the forum as quickly as possible after the event.  If any members are being harassed behind the scenes PM facility by any member/s here at 1879zuluwar.com please do not hesitate to forward the offending text.  We are all here to communicate and enjoy the various discussions and information on the Anglo Zulu War of 1879. Opinions will vary, you will agree and disagree with one another, we will have debates, and so it goes. There is no excuse for harassment or bullying of anyone by another person on this site. The above applies to the main frame areas of the forum. The ring which is the last section on the forum, is available to those members who wish to partake in slagging matches. That section cannot be viewed by guests and only viewed by members that wish to do so. 
Fair Use Notice
Fair use notice. This website may contain copyrighted material the use of which has not been specifically authorised by the copyright owner. We are making such material and images are available in our efforts to advance the understanding of the “Anglo Zulu War of 1879. For educational & recreational purposes. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material, as provided for in UK copyright law. The information is purely for educational and research purposes only. No profit is made from any part of this website. If you hold the copyright on any material on the site, or material refers to you, and you would like it to be removed, please let us know and we will work with you to reach a resolution.
 

 The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC

Go down 
+10
Frank Allewell
Dave
impi
Mr M. Cooper
90th
John
John Young
1879-2009
DrummerBoy 16
waterloo50
14 posters
AuthorMessage
waterloo50

waterloo50


Posts : 600
Join date : 2013-09-18
Location : West Country

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 4:31 pm

Hi, I don't know if this has already been discussed on the forum but it should make for an interesting debate.

I hope I haven't broken any rules here, I just cut and pasted from the BBC website.

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals after the British Army's battle with the Zulus at Rorke's Drift, while the true heroes went unrecognised, a new BBC documentary will claim this week.

In stark contrast to the film Zulu, in which Lt John Chard and Lt Gonville Bromhead, the commanding officers of the Rorke's Drift outpost, are portrayed as heroes, the BBC programme depicts them as dithering and "hopeless".

The documentary also claims that the pair sought to flee during the battle in 1879, which has become renowned as one of the Army's most inspiring actions.

It claims that the real hero of the action was James Dalton, the acting assistant commissary in the Army's supplies section. He is depicted in Zulu as a wimpish character.

The documentary, however, shows Dalton as leading the defence when the British garrison of 140 men in the South African bush comes under repeated attacks from the 3,000-strong Zulu army.

Rorke's Drift is the most famous action in the Zulu War, which began on January 11, 1879 when the Army, commanded by Lord Chelmsford, invaded the Zulu kingdom in an attempt to extend British control in South Africa.

Eleven days later, the British suffered a disastrous defeat at Isandlwana, where 1,350 soldiers died, after under-estimating the Zulus' fighting capabilities.

However, British honour was retrieved the same day by the valiant defence of Rorke's Drift, 10 miles from Isandlwana. Eleven VCs medals were awarded in recognition of the men's bravery - the most gained in a single action.

The BBC's claims that some of the medals were undeserved has prompted an angry reaction from historians and enthusiasts for the Zulu campaign. They described the BBC's conclusions as "rubbish" and insisted that the medals given to Lt Chard and Lt Bromhead were justified.

Saul David, a historian who acted as a consultant to the makers of the BBC documentary, insisted, however, that the trumpeting of the two senior officers' alleged achievements had been a deliberate ploy to mask the defeat at Isandlwana.

"Few remember that the battle of Rorke's Drift was fought on the same day that the British Army suffered its most humiliating defeat at nearby Isandlwana," he said. "It suited those responsible for the disaster to exaggerate the importance of Rorke's Drift in the hope of reducing the impact of Isandlwana. The true story of the day is one of unprovoked slaughter, heroes ignored and the guilty protected."

Dr David cites documents from the time that describe the two commanding officers in less than flattering terms. He said: "Many of their fellow officers were amazed that they were recommended for VCs.

"One senior officer wrote: 'Bromhead is a great favourite in his regiment and a capital fellow at everything except soldiering . . . He had to be reported confidentially as hopeless.' Another described Lt Chard as 'a most useless officer fit for nothing'."

Dr David said that Dalton, who was eventually awarded a VC after intensive lobbying in the press, had been overlooked initially because, as a former non-commissioned officer, he came from the "wrong background". At least two other soldiers, Commissary Walter Dunn, and Colour Sgt Frank Bourne, had also deserved the VC for their bravery, he said, but had not received the honour.

Furthermore, Dr David claims that the two scouts, Lt Teignmouth Coghill and Lt Nevill Melvill of the 24th Regiment of Foot, who were honoured with posthumous VCs after they were killed trying to save Queen Victoria's colours at Isandlwana, were not heroic, but were in the process of "bolting" from the scene.

He said: "Did they deserve the VCs? They were, after all, simply fleeing the site of the disaster. Some have even suggested that they took the colours with them as an excuse."

Dr David quotes Sir Garnet Wolseley, who succeeded Lord Chelmsford as the Army's General Officer Commanding in South Africa, as saying: "It is monstrous making heroes of those who saved or attempted to save their lives by bolting."

Brian Best, the secretary of the Victoria Cross Society, criticised the suggestion that the men should not have received their medals. "Even if there were truth in the view that by today's standards some of the VCs may not have been awarded, there is no doubt that these men were brave and deserved to be honoured," he said. 'It's stupid to say they are undeserving of the VC."

Alan Critchley, who has studied the conflict since 1969 and runs a website devoted to the history of Rorke's Drift, also described the BBC's argument as "rubbish".

He said: "It's all sour grapes. The BBC are trying to be controversial and the truth is there is some controversy surrounding the event, but the BBC have pandered to people who resented the fact that these soldiers won VCs.

"It's nonsense to say that they tried to flee or that they were not heroic. Bromhead was almost completely deaf, so many people misunderstood that for stupidity. He wasn't stupid. The facts speak for themselves. What those soldiers did was magnificent."

The BBC film reserves the most scathing criticism for Lord Chelmsford. He is depicted as lying and blaming others for his own error in under-estimating the Zulus, and as being ultimately responsible for the deaths of the 1,350 British soldiers.

At the time, Lord Chelmsford blamed the defeat at Isandlwana on Col Durnford, who died in the battle, claiming that Durnford had disobeyed orders to defend the camp.

Dr David said that this was wrong. "The truth is that no orders were ever given to Durnford to take command. The actual order was later found on the battlefield, but suppressed for a number of years," he said.

"Chelmsford used Rorke's Drift against his critics. Though undeniably heroic, the importance of the defence of Rorke's Drift was grossly exaggerated by both the generals and politicians to diminish the impact of Isandlwana."

Zulu: The True Story will be broadcast on BBC2 on Friday at 9pm.
Back to top Go down
DrummerBoy 16




Posts : 110
Join date : 2013-06-16

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 5:59 pm

Flee from 4,500 Zulus after half the invasion force of a Column was wiped out ? And they had how many men fit to fight ? Around 120ish ?

I don't see nothing cowardly about that, its what anyone would have done if they had time to get away.
Back to top Go down
1879-2009

1879-2009


Posts : 20
Join date : 2010-06-06

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 6:30 pm

Can't see this in the TV listings.
9.00 on Friday is David Attenborough...  scratch
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3315
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 7:20 pm

It is an old programme from several years back. Which has the late Christopher Cazenove as Lord Chelmsford.

I had a meeting with one of the production team at time, but in the end the sum total of my input was to supply one photograph.

There is a very good iSandlwana action scene, tightly shot with a touch of CGI, but it doesn't last long enough.

JY
Back to top Go down
John

John


Posts : 2558
Join date : 2009-04-06
Age : 62
Location : UK

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 7:58 pm

SergioD wrote:
Trying to take it seriously then see the name David Saul - and lost interest immediately.

having said that I always believe that Colour sergeant Frank Bourne deserved a VC for RD

Will watch for laughs if I have nothing better to do (unlikely)

S
As far as I'm aware, he was offered the VC but turn it down?
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 8:45 pm

JY. very interesting about the cgi Isandhlwana scene.
i dont recall ever watching the programme, just one
photograph. tells me all i need to know about the
quality of it. i hope you were handsomely rewarded
with bbc mega bucks.lol.

scoured the tv listings till the end of next week.nowt.
cheers xhosa
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyWed Sep 25, 2013 10:01 pm

all, meant to say..it begs the question why???
this was posted in the first place. Suspect 
xhosa
Back to top Go down
John Young

John Young


Posts : 3315
Join date : 2013-09-08
Age : 68
Location : Слава Україні! Героям слава!

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Sep 26, 2013 12:16 am

Les,

If a plate of pasta in a local Italian restaurant is mega-bucks then I'm guilty as charged.

JY
Back to top Go down
Guest
Guest




The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Sep 26, 2013 1:48 am

JY. your a bad man.on bbc expenses.
wined and dined.tsk.xhosa.
Back to top Go down
90th

90th


Posts : 10909
Join date : 2009-04-07
Age : 68
Location : Melbourne, Australia

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: The Wrong soldiers were awarded the VC BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Sep 26, 2013 7:08 am

Must admit I was about to debunk this as being a new Doco , but the further I read , I saw many were already all over it !
Cheers 90th .

PS. John , I hope you enjoyed your bowl of Pasta ! Shocked 
Back to top Go down
Mr M. Cooper

Mr M. Cooper


Posts : 2591
Join date : 2011-09-29
Location : Lancashire, England.

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: wrong soldiers awarded v.c's   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyThu Sep 26, 2013 12:09 pm

This is an old doco that was shown some years back on T.V. There is no doubt that 'The (almost fictional) Film' portrayed James Dalton in a very poor way (as it did with others, especially Hook), and it did portray Chard as being the main 'heroic Mr Brains', but this could have been Baker's way of playing the part of Chard in 'The Film' and showing himself as being 'The Hero'.

James Dalton did have a big part to play in organising the defence of RD, and fully deserved his V.C, as did ALL the others, so I cannot agree with SD saying otherwise, but I can agree with him in regard to Chelmsford putting the blame on Durnford and making him the scapegoat for the loss at iSandlwana.
Back to top Go down
impi

impi


Posts : 2308
Join date : 2010-07-02
Age : 44

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Sep 27, 2013 8:48 pm

This issue with the RD VCs being issued to take the heat off Isandlwana. When did the accusation actually start?
Back to top Go down
Dave

Dave


Posts : 1603
Join date : 2009-09-21

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptyFri Sep 27, 2013 9:55 pm

Impi. I think there was mention of this in the house of lords not long after the battle or has soon as the details had reached England. Either way if it was the case, it certainly worked. Did they or didn't they deserve the VC is a personal opinion. For me yes they did!

Chard and Bromhead wanting to leave RD, no doubt would have been the first choice of any officer in there situation.

Did Daltons input persuade them to stay, not so sure based on Bromhead has already started the defences and loopholes, prior to Chard arriving on the scene. So did the conversation bewteen the start because of Chards concerns. Or did the consultation take place just between Bromhead and Dalton.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 6:28 am

Im pretty sure that Dr Davids developed his theories of Melvill and Coghill running away to coincide with the story line (sic) of Zulu Hart. He allso carries on the myth the Hook was a petty thief and is pretty insistant that Bromhead and Chard wanted to flee. Not one of these theories carries any historical weight.
Unfortunatly the good Doctor developes theories and expounds them as fact. This follows through not only in his discourse of the Anglo Zulu wars but into other areas he has 'studied' such as Afganistan.
His 'Deviations from criteria based standards' are legion, so is his attempt to be seen as a popularist historian. He has obviously put work into his research in the past to obtain his Doctorate, for that he should be lauded but at present his sole defence for his more outlandish out pourings is "then prove me wrong".

Cheers ( Pete are you going to delete this one as well Suspect  No )

Back to top Go down
Cromwell

Cromwell


Posts : 27
Join date : 2013-07-28
Age : 62
Location : Northampton, England

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 12:04 pm

Dave wrote:
Impi. I think there was mention of this in the house of lords not long after the battle or has soon as the details had reached England. Either way if it was the case, it certainly worked. Did they or didn't they deserve the VC is a personal opinion. For me yes they did!

Chard and Bromhead wanting to leave RD, no doubt would have been the first choice of any officer in there situation.

Did Daltons input persuade them to stay, not so sure based on Bromhead has already started the defences and loopholes, prior to Chard arriving on the scene. So did the conversation bewteen the start because of Chards concerns. Or did the consultation take place just between Bromhead and Dalton.
Well put Dave, just wondering at what time did they know for sure they were going to be attacked they obviously new that something was not right else where by the latest 2pm. Is there
no mention anywhere of the discussions of the senior officers as to staying put or attempting to fall back to Helpmekaar where after all the their officer commanding had gone earlier that day.

In my opinion the saving of the post was down to the second fall back perimeter and the building of the Redoubt and of course having the columns reserve ammunition.
Back to top Go down
Frank Allewell

Frank Allewell


Posts : 8572
Join date : 2009-09-21
Age : 77
Location : Cape Town South Africa

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 12:55 pm

When Chard arrived at the post, construction had allready started on the defence. Chard credits Dalton with this as do a number of accounts. Chards contribution was the biscuit box wall and over all leadership. Bromhead is mentioned in a couple of accounts, leading bayonet charges etc.
Without a doubt though the rank and file credited Dalton. Remember when B company marched through PMB and saw Dalton in the crowd? Should tell you a lot..
Clerys account of the aftermath tells the story of how bad the battle affected Bromhead and Chard, so reports of their behaviour need to be put solidly in context. The VC was pretty just as far as Im concerned.

Cheers
Back to top Go down
Chelmsfordthescapegoat

Chelmsfordthescapegoat


Posts : 2593
Join date : 2009-04-24

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 3:33 pm

It's the only reference I can find regarding Dalton Explaining why they should stay. Hook claimes they had loaded two wagons. Anyone know what with?

Extract form Henry Hooks account.

"Everything was perfectly quiet at Rorke's Drift after the column had left, and every officer and man was going about his business as usual. Not a soul suspected that only a dozen miles away the very men that we had said 'Goodbye', and 'Good luck' to were either dead or standing back-to-back in a last fierce fight with the Zulus. Our garrison consisted of B Company of the 2/24th under Lieutenant Bromhead, and details which brought the total number of us up to 139. Besides these, we had about 300 men of the Natal Native Contingent; but they didn't count, as they bolted in a body when the fight began. We were all knocking about, and I was making tea for the sick, as I was hospital cook at the time.

Suddenly there was a commotion in the camp, and we saw two men galloping towards us from the other side of the river, which was Zululand. Lieutenant Chard of the Engineers was protecting the ponts over the river and, as senior officer, was in command at the drift. The ponts were very simple affairs, one of them being supported on big barrels, and the other on boats. Lieutenant Bromhead was in the camp itself. The horsemen shouted and were brought across the river, and then we knew what had happened to our comrades. They had been butchered to a man. That was awful enough, but worse was to follow, for we were told that the Zulus were coming straight on from Isandhlwana to attack us. At the same time a note was received by Lieutenant Bromhead from the Column to say that the enemy was coming on, and that the post was to be held at all costs.

For some little time we were all stunned, then everything changed from perfect quietness to intense excitement and energy. There was a general feeling that the only safe thing was to retire and try and join the troops at Helpmakaar. The horsemen had said that the Zulus would be up in two or three minutes; but luckily for us they did not show themselves for more than an hour. Lieutenant Chard rushed up from the river, about a quarter of a mile away, and saw Lieutenant Bromhead. Orders were given to strike the camp and make ready to go, and we actually loaded up two wagons. Then Mr Dalton, of the Commissariat Department, came up and said that if we left the drift every man was certain to be killed. He had formerly been a sergeant major in a line regiment and was one of the bravest men that ever lived. Lieutenants Chard and Bromhead held a consultation, short and earnest, and orders were given that we were to get the hospital and storehouse ready for defence, and that we were never to say die or surrender."
Back to top Go down
kopie




Posts : 249
Join date : 2013-06-01

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 4:54 pm

impi wrote:
This issue with the RD VCs being issued to take the heat off Isandlwana. When did the accusation actually start?
I am with you on that one, that accusation does not make any sense.
The VCs given at Rorkes drift were richly deserved by any standard and particularly well deserved by Victorian standards (when it was easier to win one, compared to the 20th C).
If the "heat" needed to be taken off the disaster at Isandhlwana for propaganda purposes and to soften the shock of the loss with the British public, then more VCs would have been awarded for Isandhlwana over and above those to Chard and Melville - which were not even awarded at the time in any case!
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4358
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 65
Location : KENT

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 8:44 pm

The posts that took this discussion off topic have been put into the ring section,under " Constructive criticism or not" you can continue there if you feel the need to do so.
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com
Guest
Guest




The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 8:49 pm

thank you admin, i agree,sorry.
Back to top Go down
ADMIN

ADMIN


Posts : 4358
Join date : 2008-11-01
Age : 65
Location : KENT

The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySat Sep 28, 2013 8:53 pm

Salute 
Back to top Go down
https://www.1879zuluwar.com
Guest
Guest




The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC Empty
PostSubject: Re: The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC   The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC EmptySun Sep 29, 2013 1:44 am

If the "heat" needed to be taken off the disaster at Isandhlwana for propaganda purposes and to soften the shock of the loss with the British public, then more VCs would have been awarded for Isandhlwana over and above those to Chard and Melville - which were not even awarded at the time in any case!

hiya kopie, Excuse me.what.. more vc's would have been awarded for Isandhlwana.
' over and above ' who.Wassall?. Chard and Bromhead's names were an addition by
his lordship,Mellvill,posthumous 27 years after intensive lobbying by sir Patrick
Coghill. cheers xhosa2000
Back to top Go down
 
The wrong soldiers were awarded Victoria Cross medals BBC
Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» Who should have and who shouldn’t have been awarded the Victoria Cross. Zulu War 1879.
» Victoria Cross
» A Victoria Cross holder.

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
WWW.1879ZULUWAR.COM  :: GENERAL DISCUSSION AREA-
Jump to: