Unknowingly and several years in advance...

Hi all

With the reform of 1881, the tunic of the British imperial infantry change ...

Finished the pointed cuff panel edged in white tap forming a trefoil knot above the point...

A Isandhwana,the uniforms of the mounted infantry of the 24th are brand new...

Those of the 2/24 th are still in good condition ...

But the soldiers of 1/24 th are in rags ...

For the latter, finished the pointed cuff panel edged in white tap forming a trefoil knot above the point...

Unknowingly and several years in advance, they are fabricated on the sleeves of their tunics, the same type of cuff panel to be worn by the infantry after the reform of 1881...

It may be noted that on the watercolors of W. Lloyd.

Cheers

Pascal

Perhaps the uniforms were in such a poor state that the cords had fallen off. Being 1/24th, and without any new issue of uniform, they should be conforming to the 'old' pattern.

The 99 th has old jackets of the former model, they have also their sleeves with siding tips ...

I do not believe that the soldiers of the 1/24th were able to reproduce siding tips on their sleeves, they made ​​the facing of the simplest model, as they appear in 1881 ...No ?

Pascal,

Please clarify which watercolours of W. W. Lloyd you referring to? As I may have an answer for you.

John Y.

Bonsoir John

It's from a comtemporary issue of the Boy's Own paper...

Pascal,

That doesn't tell me anything I'm afraid.

Can post an example of it?

John Y.

Pascal/John

Here is one from Lloyd's "On Active Service". Is this what you mean?

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Steve

Steve,

That's what I'm attempting to draw out of Pascal. Especially what 'siding tips' are.

Lloyd's On Active Service are prints not watercolours, it was published in 1890, by which time military fashions had indeed changed. The oft-used print of two 'bush-fighters' has them with the post-1881 jam-pot cuffs. Whereas the example you have posted the cuffs bear more than a passing resemblance to the 1868 pattern tunic cuffs, which were reintroduced in 1902.

Pascal,

Please post your image from The Boy's Own Paper, in an effort to illustrate your point.

John Y.

I seem to recall that after the reforms there were some alterations to uniforms, but I think they were mainly in the colours of the facings, however, I think these were short lived and regiments went back to their original facing colours.

Presumably Lloyd's illustrations in "On Active Service" are from his time with the 24th in Zululand in 1879, even though it was not published until 11 years later. There are contemporary photographs of both 1st and 2nd Btn 24th soldiers with the trefoil cuff, so I think what Pascal is getting at is that the uniforms of the 1st Battalion became so worn that they made their own repairs, including to cuffs when necessary, and did not trouble themselves too much about the niceties of trefoil piping. Maybe Lloyd picked this up in his sketches of those soldiers given the range of styles he portrays.

Is this right Pascal?

Steve

I think that the cuffs on the tunic changed from the familiar pointed cuff with austrian type knot (trefoil?), to what many called the 'jampot' cuff, this was just a 'wrap around' type of cuff, no point and no knot. The regiments also had their facing colours changed, except for the 'Royal' regiments, they still kept their dark blue facings.

I wonder if Pascal could be referring to the 'scottish' type of cuff when he says 'siding tips'?

Pascal

Elucider!

Steve

Yes it is an ilustration in black and white from a comtemporary issue of the Boy's Own paper published in 1890 after one of several color light light -hearthed sketches done on campaign ,in 1878 in the 9th Cap war by W.Lloyd.

We see this illustration in these two books "British infantryman in South Africa 1877-1881" by Ian Castle and in the "The Zulu War" by Angus McBride ...

The patched and battered uniforms are a sharp contrast to the smart outfit of the 2nd Bn.

Old hand of the 1st Bn put a band of hide round the stock and barrel of the MH for greater confort

When they have helmets, they are saggy ,wicker helmets all torns ,dirty ,daubed with yellow clay ; bootless in many instance...When they have no helmets, they are replaced with hat ...The wear and tear on their uniforms caused by constant patrols trough the thick bush ,torn by thorns and battered by boulders.

Their coats and trousers could not be remplaced for the zulu war and were therefore patched
in places with any material they could be got , regardless of colour , 'red patched with black;black,patched with white and other concevable colour...Some have replaced their blue trousers with corduroy trousers and they are also patched !

Lots of bayonnet scabbards are lost and the men of this battalion make rough coverings for the bayonets of the skins of the beasts as they are killed...

The men of this battalion are all their scabbards for their bayonets, over their haversack (to take it easier), unlike those of the second battalion ...

For the facings of the cuffs of their coats ,most made their own repairs,in the easiest way ,all round ( but in green colours) as for the coat of the Royal ,english ,welsh and irish infantry regiments of the future reform of 1881...And the white tape braid forming normally the cuff ending in a point before forming a trefoil knot, disappeared ...

In my opinion at Isandhwana,the uniforms of the mounted infantry of the 24th are brand new , because they had received new uniforms, just before the war

Those of the 2/24 th are still in good condition after the photos,because they have not had the time to see it damaging their uniforms during the ninth Cape war (but a sergent of the 2/24th at RD in february 1879 wrote that his men were also in rag's,'some with no boots,some with their jackets and trousers patched with sheepskins an all kinds of things'...)

In february 1879 the uniforms of the soldiers of the 2/24 th are also in rags ???...

But the uniforms of soldiers of 1/24 th are in rags ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal,

Are these the raggamuffins to which you refer?

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From W. W. Lloyd's On Active Service

John Y.

Steve,

rusteze wrote:

Presumably Lloyd's illustrations in "On Active Service" are from his time with the 24th in Zululand in 1879, even though it was not published until 11 years later. There are contemporary photographs of both 1st and 2nd Btn 24th soldiers with the trefoil cuff, so I think what Pascal is getting at is that the uniforms of the 1st Battalion became so worn that they made their own repairs, including to cuffs when necessary, and did not trouble themselves too much about the niceties of trefoil piping. Maybe Lloyd picked this up in his sketches of those soldiers given the range of styles he portrays.

In reply to your above comment that is why I was trying to draw out from Pascal if meant the watercolours that are in A Soldier Artist... or whether he was referring to On Active Service, but Pascal being Pascal has found another source with The Boy's Own Paper.

There are variations between Lloyd's drawn/watercolour work and the printed material which is in On Active Service.  David Rattray did compare some of the originals with the subsequently printed material.

In On Active Service Lloyd did allow errors to creep in.  There is a print entitled 'A skirmish on Picquet' with a 9-pounder in the process of being loaded on the left of the print.  For those without the book it appears in Ian Knight's new book British Infantryman versus Zulu Warrior over pages 6-7, and on the rear cover of David Jackson's Hill of the Sphinx.  The image is meant to be from the 9th Cape Frontier War 1877-8, however the Artillerymen are clearly wearing balls rather than spikes on their helmets.  At the time of the books publication that would have been correct, yet when the Royal Artillery only went over to ball-topped helmets in 1881.

Personally, I don't think we can rely on On Active Service for historical accuracy, the same applies - in my opinion - for placing too much credence on images like the one I posted above as far as uniform details.  I feel it is meant to convey the conditions of the uniforms rather than being an accurate interpretation of the details of the uniform.

I hope that long-winded answer makes sense?

John Y.

Yes John and Steve it is this, this is the good illustration ... I love it ...

And your answer is logical, but as Pascal is Pascal , Pascal is getting at is that the uniforms of the 1st Battalion of the 24th (and uniforms of the 13 th and 90 th in zululand as all infantrymen who fought long, the Xhosa in 1878 ... )became so worn that they made their own repairs, including to cuffs when necessary, and did not trouble themselves too much about the niceties of trefoil piping.

You do not think I'm the real ... it makes sense, the soldiers of the 1st Battalion of the 24th, the 1st Battalion of the 13 th and 90 th in Zululand were not seamstresses and they do what they have ...

That's why I think this illustration represents very well the soldiers who fought long, the Xhosa in 1878 ...

Cheers

Pascal

John

Yes, I am sure you are right. Lloyd using a little artistic licence.

Pascal

Glad we got there!

Steve

Brilliant. But that's what I'd expect from John.

John
If you glance through Davids book its apparent that the cuffs weren't really of importance to him. Sometimes they are shown others not. The famous Paddy Brennan sketch doesn't have them shown at all whilst the print from 'On Active Service' based on that sketch does, and they are pointed. But the 'Vote of thanks" from Punch shows Bromhead with straight cuffs.

Cheers

Yes it's great for me Steve, thank you at you and John, but for the color of Glengarries infantry, I think some will make me miseries,also for the uniform of the MI(for Lester post) ... For the Glengarries of the light infantry my sources are on page 17 of the book of IK, "British Forces in Zululand in 1879 "...

you write: There are contemporary photographs of Both 1st and 2nd Btn 24th soldiers with the trefoil cuff, for the 2nd Btn 24th, it's ok for the trefoil cuff, because the battalion has not served long against the Xhosa ...

But you do not think for a photo of the 1st Btn 24th before isandhwana, we were soldiers wearing the uniforms of the least damaged of the battalion?

Or on the photo there is a compagny of the 1st Btn 24th present at isandhwana who has fought against the Xhosa less than others, so the uniforms were less ragged ...

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal,

I'm going to post a few images which may have some bearing.

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Sergeant, in the 1868 - 1874 full dress tunic.
John Young Collection

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A Pioneer(?) Long-Service Private, KWT 1870's 1868 - 1874 serge frock.
John Young Collection

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A Fusilier, post-1874, but still wearing 1868 - 1874 frock, and old equipment belt.
John Young Collection

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A Private 4th Regiment, wearing the 1874 pattern frock.
John Young Collection

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A Private 1st/13th L.I., wearing the 1874 pattern frock.
John Young Collection

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A detachment of troops at the hospital at Herwen, the figure on the right wearing the glengarry is either an officer or he could a senior non-commissioned officer of the 1st/13th, due to the way he is wearing his sash over his left shoulder to his right hip.  Which ever is the case he is an other-ranks 1874 pattern frock.
John Young Collection

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57th Regiment in the field in Zululand, note rolled greatcoat, not blankets worn.  Also note - if it shows up in the print - one of the corporals is wearing the old pattern black ammunition pouches.
John Young Collection

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How the spick and span soldier should look.  A Private 99th Regiment taken at Chatham, circa 1877/8, wearing the full-dress seven-button tunic, 1871 pattern equipment waist-belt.  Note his diced glengarry cap on the chaise.
John Young Collection

John Y.

Thank you John and 1 000 000 000 of Bravos, you help me damn! This is a job, this is what should serve as a forum ...

If I put blankets in banderolle to my figurines of the 57th to distinguish them from other English line infantrymen ?

For the color of Glengarries of the light infantry at Kambula ,my source is good ?

They are two types of coats in the 1st/13th L.I. at Kambula ?

Cheers

Pascal

Pascal,

In my opinion it is feasible that the 1st/13th wore both pre-1874 and the 1874 pattern serge frocks.

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1st Battalion, 13th Light Infantry, Pretoria, 1877, note the Mounted Infantry to the right of the photograph.

As to the colour of the glengarries, I think that might date from 1881, but I'll check.

Here's 57th played with on Photoshop to bring out the equipment better.

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John Young Collection

John Y.

Ok thank you, it's serious the uniforms...

I would like to add to John Young's excellent responses on this topic:

1. W W Lloyd's sketches on campaign as you can see from the comparisons with modern photos in 'A Soldier-Artist in Zululand' can be judged reasonably accurate. There does however appear to be some confusion in the artist's mind when he re-worked some of these sketches for 'On Active Service' published 1890 when dress regulations had changed and Lloyd himself had left the army 8 years previously.

2. Foreign service 5-buttom unlined red frock tunic issued in South Africa were made without any regimental cuffs and collars - the regimental cuffs and half collars in the regimental facing colour (grass green in the case of the 24th) were added by the regimental tailor after they were issued. Officers often wore ORs pattern tunics - one such survives that worn by Capt A G Godwin-Austen who was wounded in Eastern Cape while commanding the now famous B Company 2/24th. Godwin-Austen's tunic is the only authentic surviving tunic of the period I have seen [On display in Brecon].

3. From Lloyd's sketches in Soldier-Artist, plate 38 - D Company marching out of PMB and plate 150 - Paddy Brennan (this is the campaign sketch not plate 151 which was published in 1890) - suggest that D Company 1/24th had been issued with fresh tunics prior to AZW but they had not had time to add the regimental cuffs and collars.

4. It is my own opinion that 'On Active Service' cannot be used a guide as to regimental dress. Furthermore in many other recent publications on AZW - when artists have depicted uniforms more than often they have taken Home Service dress regulations as their guide. For an example, there is a famous sketch of a Colour Sergeant with crown, crossed flags, 3 chevrons - whereas the crossed flags were not worn on the 5-button tunic in South Africa.

5. Perhaps there is a case to issue a new publication - based on what was actually worn in the campaign. [Ignoring of course the uniforms that appeared in 'Zulu' and 'Zulu Dawn' and worn today by re-inactors].

Very good post : "D Company 1/24th had been issued with fresh tunics prior to AZW but they had not had time to add the regimental cuffs and collars."But it was not to Isandhwana , la veinarde...

Pascal,

Quote :

For the color of Glengarries of the light infantry at Kambula ,my source is good ?

I can now state that your source is at fault.

The Glengarry cap of Light Infantry Regiments was blue cloth, however the torrie or tuft was green for the reference to this see General Order 35 of 1877.

Something to interest you the glengarry tufts of all Royal Regiments as well as those of the 104th Regiment were scarlet, all of the remaining regiments had blue tufts.

John Y.

pascal look in my photobucket.
image is 4000 dpi, to big for forum,
old image anyhow, xhosa

https://s1297.photobucket.com/user/xhosa2000/library/?sort=6&page=1

Congratulations John and Lester, I just take one step giant!

Like what I have reason not to trust what I read in some books ...

So in conclusion in the 1879 Zulu war ,the glengarry torrie or tuft was green for the 13th Light Infantry and the 90 th Light Infantry.

The glengarry torrie or tufts of the 4th Line Infantry and 21 st Line Infantry were scarlet.

The glengarry torrie or tufts of the 3rd , 24 th ,57 th ,58 th ,80 th, 88 th ,91st ,94 th and 99 th Line Infantry were blue.

But the glengarry torrie or tuft of the 60 th Rifles were blue ? Not black or green ?

The Glengarry cap of Light Infantry Regiments was blue cloth, like those of every regiment of the line infantry.

But the Glengarry cap of the 60 th Rifles were green...

Lester, if we could have this kind of illustrations, really great for the other 14 British Imperial Infantry Battalions of this war, you imagine the enjoyment ...

Again thank you to both of you, this would not have me well awakened !

Cheers

Pascal

pascal, vous êtes au-delà obsédé, votre besoin d'obtenir
chaque détail, définitif est fantastique, salue mon ami.

no mate i certainly don't have the 14 line regiment's in the
way you wish, you know?. richard simpkin, harry payne..?
cheer's

Hello my friend Lester

Yes I'm mad since 1970 with this kind of questions ... For all the conflicts that interested me, I gave you the list ...

Richard Simpkin, Harry Payne ?

I made ​​myself at all illustrators and most historians of this war, because every time on this forum, there are one or two members who demonstrated to me the opposite of what I believe ... That the 'interest in this forum ...

Cheers

Rascal

If the 13th Light Infantry was its facing colors in blue, it's a Royal regiment, ok?

So why his glengarry torrie or tuft was green and not red ? Because it's a Light Infantry regiment ?

Although having a Scottish connection, such as 21 st, 91st and 99th,the 90 th although nominally a Scottish Regiment(Perthshire Volunteers) , not possessed of diced band on Glengarry and the officers' forage cap,why ?

Rascal

13th Foot began with yellow facings. On being named 'Prince Albert's' in 1842, the regiment was given blue facings.

21st, 90th, 91st and 99th Foot are all Lowland regiments. So that is why no diced bands on Glengarry caps. Only Highland regiments wore kilts and red/white dicing.

Genial Kenny , but all that tell Barthop, IK and Castle is false?

In addition, they are full of contradictions between them ...!

Ok,13th Foot was given blue facings in 1842.

With his glengarry torrie or tuft red like a Royal regiment or green like a Light Infantry regiment ?

Pascal,

The 13th were not a technically Royal Regiment - just because they had blue facings did not make them so.  Therefore green I would suggest! Although post-1881 they managed to retain their blue facing.

The 60th were a Royal Regiment - they were the King's ROYAL Rifle Corps.  To paraphrase a line from Zulu:
Confused Frenchie?  Therefore red.

I'm still working on the colour of their glengarry caps but the evidence is pointing towards...

I should have the definitive answer after 17th December when I revisit the Rifles Museum.

As 21st, 90th and 99th Foot as Kenny states they were are all Lowland regiments.  However only the 90th did not have diced bands on Glengarry caps.  This may go back to Perthshire being being very Calvinist in its religious ways so no gaudy diced bands.

91st were a non-kilted Highland regiment.

I'll post more on this tonight - have to dash.

John Y.

Thank you John! This is too great, but you will make me go crazy! I love your posts so much that I put them on a USB key in PDF, to keep and read at leisure ...

The glengarry of the 60 th is green with a red torrie or tuft !!!

And on my other topic for the location of the distinctive colors on the frocks ,for me is worse than hell  ...

John ,you wrote :To paraphrase a line from Zulu: Confused Frenchie?

What is this line from Zulu?

Rascal

Pascal,

Here's a 91st Highlander for you to look at:

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91st Highlander
John Young Collection

Just to confuse you here's a Colour-Sergeant in full-dress from the 13th Light Infantry:

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Colour-Sergeant 13th Light Infantry.
John Young Collection

Now I not concerned about the full-dress rank insignia here, but what do you notice that is unique to the 13th?

John Y.

Hello John

And thank you, they are geniale these pictures is what kind of pictures that are useful to me ...

Once again you were right ex : for glengarries of Scottish regiments, you're a real uniformologue!

But you are a cruel man  , because as I do every uniform badges on my figurines "green stuff" I can not tell you the misery ...

Cheers

Pascal

Hi JY.
Excellent pics thanks for the post .
Cheers 90th

John Y,

13th Foot - distinctions: rank badges on both arms and senior rank's red sash over left shoulder. The later custom (unique to 13th LI) was thought to be granted when sergeants took on the duties of officers.

Yes Kenny distinctions rank badges on Both arms valid for the light infantry but also for the fusiliers ,rifles and Highlanders  

The 60th Were a Royal Regiment - They Were the King's Royal Rifle Corps, yet his glengarry tufts are not scarlet, his distinctive color was not the Royal Blue and his Glengarry are not blue ...  

Pascal,

As promised an answer:

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A 60th Rifles Glengarry Cap, on display at The Rifles Museum, Winchester.

Dark blue with a black tuft.

John Y

Thank you John, this is still an issue that has resulted ...

John, if you did not exist, it would have to invent you and shame that nobody can clone you ...

Luckily that I painted my figures when I'm confident with my doc, months or years after my figurines are ready ...

Otherwise I would have painted their glengarries dark green ...

Pascal