Isandhlwana: Fate of Godwin Austin and Pope

Hi Steve

Thanks for that photo its great is that the Colonial Cemetry at Isandlwana ? and is that the Nqutu ridge in the back round

Morning Aussie
It is the Colonial Burial Area but looking in the opposite direction. The range in the background is the Hlazakazi leading down the plain.

Cheers

Im probably stepping on somebodies toes with this one, so in advance I apologise if Im infringing,

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Tim
The simpler cross is visible in this photo and Im pretty sure that John Young will be able to date the 'Butterfly' collector pictured.

Cheers

Frank,

That's 'The Queen's Cross' expedition of 1880.  Henry Stabb & Commandant Bowker are the two Europeans in the photograph, also there should Be Jabez Molife.

John Y.

Morning John
Have you managed to date your earlier photo with the wagons?
The fact that the slimline cross was in place in 1880 is interesting. Does that put the 'wagons' photo as late 79 early 80?

Regards

Thanks mate great photo

i would love your opinion on my post the missing five hours yesterday and yours to 90th

So how far from the Colonial cemetry was Pope buried its a shame that cross marking the spot no longer there

Also been reading on Maceleroy the last paragraph of page 216 of For God Queen and Colony it broke my heart have you any info on him mate

Hi Aussie
There was a proposal at one point to move Macleroys remains to PMB but his dad objected and wrote to the provincial authority requesting it remain buried on the side of the Fugitives Trail. I will dig out the letters for you and post.

Cheers

Frank,

George MacLeroy is buried next to his father in PMB. His mother had George Jr.'s body recovered from Isandlwana in one of the final acts she did before leaving Natal for England in 1881/2.

I annotated George's sister's diary for the period of 1877-82 for the family a few years back, and can confirm the body was interred in the Commercial Street cemetery in PMB.

I presented a lecture on George MacLeroy entitled 'When the Son of a Banker met the Son of a King' a couple of years back which tied in George's story with that of Prince Dabulamanzi. As both families have struck up a close friendship.

I would put the photograph with the wagon post the butterfly-collectors photograph, as the photographer responsible for the wagon photograph post-dates the other photographer.

John Y.

Hi John
I do recall we had that discussion some time back, senility sneaking in again Im afraid.
Still trying to draw a timeline using those photos showing the cross.

Cheers

John Young wrote:

Frank,

George MacLeroy is buried next to his father in PMB.  His mother had George Jr.'s body recovered from Isandlwana in one of the final acts she did before leaving Natal for England in 1881/2.  

I annotated George's sister's diary for the period of 1877-82 for the family a few years back, and can confirm the body was interred in the Commercial Street cemetery in PMB.  

I presented a lecture on George MacLeroy entitled 'When the Son of a Banker met the Son of a King' a couple of years back which tied in George's story with that of Prince Dabulamanzi.  As both families have struck up a close friendship.

I would put the photograph with the wagon post the butterfly-collectors photograph, as the photographer responsible for the wagon photograph post-dates the other photographer.

John Y.

Thanks John yes i visited his grave site on the 9th of Janaurary last year i have been told recently the Head stone has been replaced seeing the old one was vandalized i am hoping someone could post the new headstone

thanks again mate

I got the above photo from Road to Isandlwana by Philip Gorn
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Would I be correct to say the grave site  above belongs to Lieut Pope

 Posted on behalf of Aussie Inkosi

No.

Hi Frank

Then it must be one from the Colonial Cemetery

Thanks

Aussie theres a lot more to this than meets the eye. There is a sequence of events that for the time being I cant really get into. Wait for next month for the book, theres a whole chapter devoted to this question.
Cheers, hope your keeping safe and sound.

Aussie
Frank's right. One needs to be led by the hand in this one.

Natal Witness 27th March 1879
Young Pope of the 24th who fell inthe recent disasterous action at Sandhlwana was a capital artist and many of his sketches have appeared in the Illustrated and the Graphic. He was quartered at Chatham before he went to the Cape and the door of the officers guard-room at Chatham prison is covered with his paintings in oil.

Natal Witness 29th March 1879
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Fake news regarding Anthony William Durnford and the Right Reverend Richard Durnford.  Plus the reporter is having trouble with spelling Austen!

Was Pope related to Father Thomas Alder Pope?  There must have been a family schism given that Pope’s father was an Anglican cleric in the Honourable East India Company.

JY

Hi John

Lieutenant Charles D'Aguilar Pope:

Yes Father Thomas Alder Pope 1819 _ 1904 was Lieutenant Pope's uncle.
He was brother of Rev John Pawley Pope, Lieutenant Pope's father. Lieutenant Pope's mother was Eliza Harriet (D'Aguilar) Pope.
He also had an relation Rev Henry Pope 1832 - 1884.

A cousin Father Hugh Pope, 1869 - 1941, professor St Thomas Aquinas, Angelicum, in Rome.

Another uncle Rev Henry Pope 1789 - 1827.

Another uncle Rev Richard Vercoe Pope 1791 - 1832

Also cousin to Lieut Col Thomas Henry Pope 1853 _ 1920.

Ancestry
Geni.com
Wikitree

Eddie,

Good job the Roman Catholic priests in the family didn’t go for the top job - imagine it Pope Pope!

JY

Was there a family link between Pope's mother and Lt Lionel George Henry D'Aguilar (1859-1888) 2/24th, Grenadier Gds, Rife Brigade who was awarded the Royal Humane Society's Bronze Medal and served briefly during the later stages of AZW - medal no clasp.

Regarding the location of Pope's burial, I've just come across the following extract written by Gen. Sir Alexander Tulloch in Witnesses at Isandlwana by Neil Thornton & Michael Denigan (p.413):

"In the grass enclosure are crosses to Captain Hitchcock and Lieutenant Pope, 24th Regiment, and a flat slab monument with Trooper Blakie's name on it"

This surely indicates that Pope was indeed interred in the Colonial Cemetery after all, and maybe the iron cross still in situ is his grave?

Regards,

Tim

Hi Tim
I published the statement from Tulloch in "Solving the Enigma".


There are monuments to the Regiments, Colonial
and Imperial, that died on that field and in particular
a number dedicated to the individual members of the
Colonial forces.
Considering the amount of effort made by Edward
Durnford and the Colenso family and the resultant
publicity generated both in South Africa and the
United Kingdom when the Colonel was virtually
exonerated, it’s strange that no one sponsor stepped
forward to remedy the situation. Possibly there was
still some resentment in South Africa, in particular
amongst the Natal Colonists that prevented any overt
advertisement of his role in the battle.
In 1885 Major-General Sir Alexander Tulloch
visited the site and commented that, “In the grass
enclosure there are crosses to Captain Hitchcock
and Lieutenant Pope, 24th Regiment and a flat slab to
Trooper Blaikie.”
Speculation on the exact position of Durnford’s
body location abounded with some fairly odd attempts
to place it such as this sketch by Major Walter George
Crole Wyndham 21st Hussars. Showing the grave to be
on the west face of the mountain and at its northern
end, a long distance away from Durnford’s area of
operation. The only significant memorial on that face
is to George Shepstone, and that is much further south
than this indicates.

Frank

Tim
Ive theorised that iron cross has migrated from further up the slope down to its present location. In the cemetery area are the remains of a small stone cross, the top is broken away, i personally believe that is Pope's grave.
Frank

Thanks Frank,

Looking at a couple of old photos I've seen of this stone cross before it was broken, it certainly looks like it had an inscription of some kind & as you say could well be Pope's memorial (and possibly the one mentioned by Tulloch) - the iron cross still in situ nearby doesn't seem to be able to bear any kind of wording as it's so small/narrow.

Regards,

Tim

Hi Tim
Possibly this may help.

On the 9th December 1879 at a meeting on the
battlefield a decision was taken to build a memorial
church. A service was held and a steel cross planted
on a cairn.
Padre George Smith of Rorke’s Drift by Canon
William Lummis M.C.
Canon Charles Johnson, Missionary at St Augustine’s,
iSandhlwana, in the Diocese of Zululand.
“In the meantime, the Bishop had written saying
that he was going to read the Burial Service at
iSandhlwana and would be glad if I would
accompany him, and thus make a definite
commencement of the mission, and as Mr.
Greenstock’s arrival enabled me to start at once I
again left Springvale November 28th.
We were quite a party leaving Pietermaritzburg,
consisting of His Lordship, the Ven.Archdeacon
Usherwood, the Rev G Smith and myself, and
the party grew larger as we went along. Mr. Fynn
joined us at Umsinga and the Civil Resident, Mr.
Wheelwright, at Rorke’s Drift.
We reached iSandhlwana the day appointed
throughout the Colony as Thanksgiving Day for
the restoration of peace. We rode over the field
and selected a good spot for the future Memorial
Church on the site of the late camp of the 24th,
and having erected a small iron cross that we had
brought with us on a cairn of stones to mark the
site.”
Henry Francis Fynn, present with the party, was the
magistrate for Msinga and had, on many occasions,
acted as tour guide to various dignitaries. There is
a high possibility therefore that he pointed out the
position where Dunford’s body had been buried and
the cairn and cross erected at that point, certainly
Bodley identifies it as such. (See page 92)
In 1887 and 1888 John Edward Courtenay Bodley,
an English civil servant, travelled through Natal and
Zululand, recording his journey in his diary. Part of
that journey encompassed the battlefields of Rorke’s
Drift and Isandlwana.
On February 11th 1888 he left the tented camp at
Fort Northampton on the banks of the uMzinyathi
River and in company with Major McKean of the
Inniskillings rode the 12 miles to Isandlwana.
After a visit to the memorial Church, St Vincent’s,
they rode over the battlefield. He comments:
“There is a monument to Hitchcock and one to
another Natal soldier, a cross without inscription
where Durnford was found and a memorial
on the hillside to Sir T. Shepstone’s son, but no
column or anything else in general memory of the
700 who fell.”
The old photos clearly indicate the Archdeacons cross
in a remote cairn fairly high up on the slope and lower
down the steel cross that would have carried the
message, ‘Here lies a brave British Soldier.’ Adjacent
to that last mentioned cross is a separate cairn with
a small stone cross, today the top section has been
detached from the base and is no longer evident.
We do know from available testimony that Colonel
Dunford’s body was found amongst a group of Colonial
and British soldiers, and buried in a donga. The sketch
by Luard of the place where Dunford’s body was found
suggests that the cairn erected by the clergy could very
well be a marker for that site.
The larger cairn to the left-hand side of the photo
is on the edge of the track and has an Iron Cross
mounted on it.
Halfway along the team of oxen, a cairn is visible;
this I believe is the cairn in the previous picture with
the iron cross. The cairn in the right foreground has a
traditional British fallen soldier cross with the small
square plaque mounted in the centre, possibly this
is the grave marker for Lieutenant Charles Pope and
Lieutenant Fred Godwen-Austen.
The first and second photos above indicate the
position of the original track, much further north than
the current one. The second shows what I believe to
be the cairn built by Arch Deacon Underwood with
the steel cross mounted to indicate the position he
originally wanted to construct his church. (St. Vincent’s
was eventually built further to the north in the lee of
the ridge).
The last of these photos is taken around 1880,
my thanks to John Young for his assistance in dating
that Stabb with his butterfly net, Bowker and Jacob
Molife posing amongst the long grass with the very
apparent Arch deacons cross in front of him. A careful
examination of the photo seems to indicate that the
four men in a row could be on the track. It is interesting
in the photo above that Jacob Molife was part of that
party and as he had a part in locating Dunford’s body
it is again highly probable that he would have imparted
that knowledge to the photographer who has made thecross and cairn the focus of his shot.
The same cross, having been moved from the cairn
to the west, is now in the Colonial cemetery and is
visible at the foot of the cairn, third from the left.

Good Morning Tim
This thread might also be helpful for you if you have not aleady seen it
https://www.1879zuluwar.com/t12557-funeral-and-burial-service-at-isandlwana-iron-cross-on-battlefield#106474
Kate

Thanks Frank/Kate.

Frank - in the passage you posted, Bodley mentions that on his visit to Isandlwana on 11 Feb 1888 he found the monument to Hitchcock, one to 'another Natal soldier' (Blaikie of the Natal Carbineers?) and 'a cross without inscription' - as the stone cross which is now broken (& the one you think may have marked Pope's grave) seems to have been the most prominent cross in the cemetery perhaps this is the one Bodley is describing.

On the other hand, as Maj-Gen Tulloch specifically mentions seeing Pope's cross in 1885, this cross without inscription cannot possibly be Pope's, otherwise how would Tulloch know if it didn't have an inscription?

A further point to note, I have an image (taken by forum member Rai England) of some kind of square plaque commemorating Lt. Pope which reads as follows:

R.I.P.
C.D. 'A POPE
LIEUT 2/24TH REGT
HE FOUGHT AND FELL AT
ISANDHLWANA
JANY 22ND 1879
GODS WILL BE DONE

Rai took the photo in the 1990s at (I believe) the cultural museum at Ondini, although when I enquired there when I visited in 2013 no one had any knowledge of it and its current location seems to be a mystery.

I'll ask Admin to post the image (with Rai's permission), but I can't help thinking that this could have been a grave marker at some point - purely conjecture on my part - as the letters 'RIP' at the start certainly suggest that to me.

If Maj-Gen Tulloch was able to identify Pope's cross in 1885 it must have had some kind of identification - perhaps this plaque was it?

As ever, interested to hear others' thoughts.

Regards,

Tim

Hi Tim
In a. photo taken early 80s looking down to the colonial grave area from the saddle the stone cross and a second, the traditional steel with a square plaque centre mounted are clearly visible. There are many of the old steel generic crosses with the dedication to a brave British soldier dotted around Zulu land. The stone cross is very small so any plaque would be rather small as well. I look forward to seeing Rai's photo and getting some idea of its size.
The possibility does exist that the stone cross was pointed out to Maj-Gen Tulloch as being Popes marker, without inscription. Just as the outermost cairns are pointed out, unmarked, as CS Wolff.
All speculation of course but the posibilities are there and as we have commented on many occasions the intrigue continues.

Cheers

Frank

Tim
Does the plaque contain any 'holes' for affixing to the stone grave?
Also the removal/theft of any plaque from that grave would still have left 'marks' in the stone itself where it had once been affixed. It would be serendipitous if the marks are still visible and matched the position of the 'holes' in the plaque.

Posted on behalf of Tim Needham. The original photo was taken by Rai England.

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Admin
Thank you! And four holes, one in each corner!

Judging by the size of the portion of the 'stem' of the missing/broken cross as it is now the space alvailable between the cross member and the vertical member would have been around 100mm. It would be interesting to know how big the plaque is.
Because  the top section is missing Julian a comparison could not be made.
There is a further possibility of course that if the plaque is small in stature it could have been fixed to the base that supported the cross, thats around 280mm wide.
I will at some time see if I can locate a close up of the base itself.

Frank

Frank
Thank you. How interesting. Remember, Watson, that the plaque's removal will have left telltale holes in the masonry.

Tim
It looks as though the plaque is attached to something already - not the broken piece of the cross is it?

Ive asked a freind to take a look at the remains of the cross base to see if there any signs of screw holes.

Cheers

Hi All
The Pope plaque was about eight inches square.
Rai Keynshamlighthorse

Thanks Rai - fairly small then & potentially of a size suitable to be mounted on the lower portion/base of the cross.....

Another observation (& probably an irrelevant one!) is that from an old photograph I've found online of the cross taken when intact, it appears to have very similar proportionality to the cross on the western slopes of Isandlwana marking George Shepstone's grave (although the latter appears to be somewhat larger). Perhaps the two memorials were constructed by the same firm or individuals?

Again, I'll ask Admin to kindly post the two images for comparison.

Regards,

Tim

I will post some photos for comparrison.

Frank

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George Shepston

Photo 1: Early 1880 The 'Pope' cross in plae
Photo 2: The cross today
Photo 3: The closest detail I have at present
Phot0 4 Again early 1800 showing the colonials area with the cross prominent to the left

On photo two there seems to be indications of marks on the 4 corners.

frank

Good stuff, Frank, your eyesight is better thanmine but an eye-witness inspection of the size and the holes should give confirmation.

Photo taken in 2015
No holes are visible on this side though it has been heavily white washed over the years
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(Kate B Collection)

And a blow up from the other side from 2011
In my notes about the colonial cemetery I have not made any mention of holes in the stone slab.
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(Kate B collection)

I will look to see if I have a closer photograph of the other side

Shepstone's cross taken in 2016 for comparison Tim
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(Kate B Collection)

Kate my photo 2 is a similar angle to yours but the original has a tad more definition, just a tad. Thats raising the suspicion in my mind.
Hopefully Ronald can investigate for us.

Frank